Paper book or Ebook? - Part II

[briantw]

3 hours ago, mgambino said:

I read almost exclusively on my iPhone 6+. I have a kindle paperwhite, but I like my phone's screen better.

 

Battery lasts a lot longer on the paper white, though.  Using the Kindle app on my iPhone drains the battery pretty quickly, whereas I can read for an hour or two every day for two weeks on my Kindle before it needs a charge, if not longer.

[Magnar of Skagos]

16 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

I was a reluctant but now enthusiastic Kindle convert. I like getting books immediately, and then being able to read them where the lighting is sub-optimal. (Useful when you get past forty!) Besides, you can always buy the paperback if you're worried about losing the rights or whatever. I think sometimes ebooks are a bit over-priced, but I suppose that's a discussion for another time.

I'm not exactly sure why, but I thought e-books were cheaper. Somewhere along the $1.99 range. I don't exactly know why I was under that impression, but I thought I saw a few priced somewhere like that.

[Switchback the Second]

100% kindle reader here.  They made a thing where the text looks like text from a paper book but I can hold it and flip pages one-handed, and put thousands of books on something that lists its weight in ounces.  And there's a light for when I'm reading in a tent in the Woods.  I mean Jesus, it's the perfect device.

[briantw]

50 minutes ago, Hrokkan of Skagos said:

I'm not exactly sure why, but I thought e-books were cheaper. Somewhere along the $1.99 range. I don't exactly know why I was under that impression, but I thought I saw a few priced somewhere like that.

There are certainly a lot of cheap e-books.  However, new releases from major publishers tend to overprice their digital copies, which sucks.  In my mind, digital copies should always be cheaper than physical copies, and sadly that's not always the case.

[Jo498]

I think even a double sized (compared to the old standard) kindle screen would feel fairly small for many (science) textbooks. Maybe this can be handled by newer/bigger/smarter e-readers.

But I find the complete dependency on such things fairly terrifying, especially if it's coupled to obligatory i-pads (or any other devices of *one* powerful brand) for everyone.

When Einstein was asked where his laboratory was located, he took a pen out of his pocket. Sure, this did not generally work even in the 19th century (much less in Einstein's time). But if middle school requires high-tech to teach fairly elementary things, what happens, if the high tech fails. Already now people (incl. those with higher degrees) are very bad at simple calculations without help of electronic devices, worse at guesstimating etc.

There are great things one can do and facilitate with those gadgets. But there are also fairly elementary skills lost.

(It also becomes quite hard to set problems, especially for *weaker* students. I talked about this with by brother who used to work as substitute teacher. When we were in school around 1990 in elementary calculus the easier test questions often were to calculate a few points of a curve and draw it. Grindwork, but not all that hard if you had mastered the basics. If your device immediately gives you the curve after you enter the formula, such a problem will hardly be worth any points and more advanced/interesting questions (like proofs etc.) will often be too hard for an average student. And while the easy plotting etc. can help getting a "feeling" for shape, behavior, dependency on different variables etc. it can also work in the other direction with students unable to tell some things (symmetries etc.) just by looking at the formula without having the curve plotted.)

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Jo498 said:

I think even a double sized (compared to the old standard) kindle screen would feel fairly small for many (science) textbooks. Maybe this can be handled by newer/bigger/smarter e-readers.

But I find the complete dependency on such things fairly terrifying, especially if it's coupled to obligatory i-pads (or any other devices of *one* powerful brand) for everyone.

When Einstein was asked where his laboratory was located, he took a pen out of his pocket. Sure, this did not generally work even in the 19th century (much less in Einstein's time). But if middle school requires high-tech to teach fairly elementary things, what happens, if the high tech fails. Already now people (incl. those with higher degrees) are very bad at simple calculations without help of electronic devices, worse at guesstimating etc.

There are great things one can do and facilitate with those gadgets. But there are also fairly elementary skills lost.

(It also becomes quite hard to set problems, especially for *weaker* students. I talked about this with by brother who used to work as substitute teacher. When we were in school around 1990 in elementary calculus the easier test questions often were to calculate a few points of a curve and draw it. Grindwork, but not all that hard if you had mastered the basics. If your device immediately gives you the curve after you enter the formula, such a problem will hardly be worth any points and more advanced/interesting questions (like proofs etc.) will often be too hard for an average student. And while the easy plotting etc. can help getting a "feeling" for shape, behavior, dependency on different variables etc. it can also work in the other direction with students unable to tell some things (symmetries etc.) just by looking at the formula without having the curve plotted.)

I don't understand this criticism tbh. Yes, we have things easier in certain respects because if all these gadgets and gizmos. But that's the world we live in now. This is the tech we will be using on a day to day basis throughout our lives. Why is coming to grips with it at school age such a problem?

[Jo498]

You misunderstood. The problem is not not coming to grips with gadgets. The problem is not being able to do even elementary things in certain fields without them. I have a fairly deep aversion against doing things with high tech than can as well be done with pen and paper (or chalk and blackboard). I am all for using computers (to some extent) in more advanced maths or science classes (and the problems I mentioned in my last paragraphs can certainly be solved). But not until children have mastered basics without them.

And there is of course also the problem of DRM, of buffing up (nearly) monopolist structures and corporations that are already too powerful (e.g. too powerful to be forced to pay taxes) by "every pupil their X-pad" (and every two years a new one and may the devil take the laborers in the mines for rare minerals we need for that and the children in Africa getting sick from salvaging through heaps of electronic trash from the first world). I am not aware of any dangerously powerful companies for pencils and chalk...

[MisterOJ]

8 hours ago, briantw said:

There are certainly a lot of cheap e-books.  However, new releases from major publishers tend to overprice their digital copies, which sucks.  In my mind, digital copies should always be cheaper than physical copies, and sadly that's not always the case.

One thing I've learned about ebooks is that the publisher sets the price of the ebook and it can't really be discounted by the retailer - whether it is Amazon or Barnes & Noble or whoever. The price of the ebook is what it is. And, when a retailer buys a bunch of physical copies of a book from a publisher - they own those and can sell them at whatever price they want. They can discount them deeply because they own the physical product, but they can't adjust the price of the ebook.

 

[Puntificator]

With one exception, I've been buying only Kindle books since the Kindle Fire HD came out. 

[TrackerNeil]

11 hours ago, Hrokkan of Skagos said:

I'm not exactly sure why, but I thought e-books were cheaper. Somewhere along the $1.99 range. I don't exactly know why I was under that impression, but I thought I saw a few priced somewhere like that.

Some of them are, to be sure, but some of them are priced between $15 and $20, which is a bit startling, IMO.

[Magnar of Skagos]

Just now, TrackerNeil said:

Some of them are, to be sure, but some of them are priced between $15 and $20, which is a bit startling, IMO.

Yah, that is pretty ridiculous. To me, the only reason I'd probably ever get a Kindle was if the price of books was drastically lower than hard copies.

[Gertrude]

I don't entirely get the argument that e-books should be cheaper. The reason they don't publish paperbacks at the same time as paperbacks is because they know people will buy it for the value of having it now instead of a year from now. Just because we prefer to read a book digitally rather than physically, I think they should be priced the same - if it's only available in hardcover, the e-book should be priced the same. To be honest, I am not sure how prices overall line up e-book vs paper, as I generally buy digital. But if we're talking specifically how e-books should be cheaper because they are pixels instead of ink, I don't think that is a convincing argument. I know mileage may vary here.

What I would like to see is that when you buy a physical book, an e-book copy is part of the bargain.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I don't entirely get the argument that e-books should be cheaper. The reason they don't publish paperbacks at the same time as paperbacks is because they know people will buy it for the value of having it now instead of a year from now. Just because we prefer to read a book digitally rather than physically, I think they should be priced the same - if it's only available in hardcover, the e-book should be priced the same. To be honest, I am not sure how prices overall line up e-book vs paper, as I generally buy digital. But if we're talking specifically how e-books should be cheaper because they are pixels instead of ink, I don't think that is a convincing argument. I know mileage may vary here.

What I would like to see is that when you buy a physical book, an e-book copy is part of the bargain.

Funny you should mention that. Last year there was an option for us to buy one of our textbooks as part of a package which included a e-book version too (iirc you were given a code when you bought the physical copy) as well as some other little online bits and pieces. It cost more, which I guess makes sense, but it wasn't the equivalent of buying the book twice I remember. Not sure how much it was though, as I didn't go for that package.

[Spockydog]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

What I would like to see is that when you buy a physical book, an e-book copy is part of the bargain.

Amazon do precisely that when you buy CDs. It's only a matter of time before they start doing it with books.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

On 5/2/2016 at 9:31 AM, Jo498 said:

I think even a double sized (compared to the old standard) kindle screen would feel fairly small for many (science) textbooks. Maybe this can be handled by newer/bigger/smarter e-readers.

But I find the complete dependency on such things fairly terrifying, especially if it's coupled to obligatory i-pads (or any other devices of *one* powerful brand) for everyone.

When Einstein was asked where his laboratory was located, he took a pen out of his pocket. Sure, this did not generally work even in the 19th century (much less in Einstein's time). But if middle school requires high-tech to teach fairly elementary things, what happens, if the high tech fails. Already now people (incl. those with higher degrees) are very bad at simple calculations without help of electronic devices, worse at guesstimating etc.

There are great things one can do and facilitate with those gadgets. But there are also fairly elementary skills lost.

(It also becomes quite hard to set problems, especially for *weaker* students. I talked about this with by brother who used to work as substitute teacher. When we were in school around 1990 in elementary calculus the easier test questions often were to calculate a few points of a curve and draw it. Grindwork, but not all that hard if you had mastered the basics. If your device immediately gives you the curve after you enter the formula, such a problem will hardly be worth any points and more advanced/interesting questions (like proofs etc.) will often be too hard for an average student. And while the easy plotting etc. can help getting a "feeling" for shape, behavior, dependency on different variables etc. it can also work in the other direction with students unable to tell some things (symmetries etc.) just by looking at the formula without having the curve plotted.)

Yes, completely agree with you

I think the main problem is that we have turned around 360º degrees in 5-10 years. Technology is a good tool for teaching, but should not be the main one. We need an equilibrium between both worlds. I've been a personal tutor for students who need help with Sciences or Maths while studying my degree and I've felt as if I came from another planet. It's like just ten years ago we didn't have iopads on class like you, but still, I've learned how to use electronic tools on my own. There's no necessity to use them all the time to learn how to properly use them. And I can tell you it's very complicated to make them concentrate on basic calculus because they rely on the ipad or the laptop all the time. I reckon that they can be useful tools but I've had problems with12 year-old's that can't concentrate on how to plan an essay because they automatically use the laptop to write it.  It's like, they can not even highlight important  things on a text because they are just not taught how to do that  because they don't have ANY paper text book. When I was an elementary student I had a lot of text books but many of my teachers didn't use them, they kind of "created" they own material, based on their knowledge and also the text book, as well, as a guide.  I'm not a professional teacher and I don't know anything about pedagogy but the excuse teachers use that "in the future machines will do everything we do but much better, so what's the point in teaching them how to do that"? it's not fully valid for me. It is a realiy that we will rely on them, but who will create these robots? Who will improve them? How will these kids study Maths when they are at university studying a scientific degree or an engineering one?

 

[Switchback the Second]

I actually think price is one of the big advantages of ebooks.  Sure, new releases may seem overpriced, but then deals abound.  I've gotten a bunch of great sff from the 'Kindle Daily Deal' for 2 bucks a pop, including The Mechanical by Tregilis recently.  I think I got both of the currently released books in Stavely's series from that same page.  Also just using recent examples, popular older books like The Passage by Cronin and Quicksilver by Stephenson have been (are?) 2 bucks.  

So my collection has become huge by buying pretty much only books that are 2 bucks or less.  I will jump on some regular priced books from time to time, but I'd say 90% of new purchases I make are dirt cheap.  Cheaper than used paperback kind of cheap.  

[briantw]

22 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I don't entirely get the argument that e-books should be cheaper. The reason they don't publish paperbacks at the same time as paperbacks is because they know people will buy it for the value of having it now instead of a year from now. Just because we prefer to read a book digitally rather than physically, I think they should be priced the same - if it's only available in hardcover, the e-book should be priced the same. To be honest, I am not sure how prices overall line up e-book vs paper, as I generally buy digital. But if we're talking specifically how e-books should be cheaper because they are pixels instead of ink, I don't think that is a convincing argument. I know mileage may vary here.

What I would like to see is that when you buy a physical book, an e-book copy is part of the bargain.

It should be cheaper because there's zero production cost on the publisher side.  They don't have to pay to print the books.  They don't have to pay to ship the books.  The digital copies don't take up valuable floor space in a book store or warehouse.  No one has to package the books for shipping to individual customers.  Basically, all the post-production work has been taken out of the hands of the publisher.  That's work that costs time and money.  That savings should be passed on to the customers who buy digitally, and that's not even taking into account that publishers generally take in a larger share of digital profits compared to physical.

Essentially, publishers save a lot of money when we purchase a digital copy, but yet we end up paying the same price.  That's not a good system for the consumer.

Additionally, you can resell a physical copy to get some of the money you paid back.  You can't do that with a digital copy, and you don't really own a digital copy either.  They should be cheaper.

[TrackerNeil]

On 2/6/2016 at 8:06 PM, Gertrude said:

What I would like to see is that when you buy a physical book, an e-book copy is part of the bargain.

Maybe this would finally satisfy those who steal ebooks because they don't like DRM. I surely hope so.

[James Arryn]

I own more books than anyone I know, but extensive travel has pretty much converted me. I do agree that e-books ought to be cheaper, though. Particularly non-fiction e-books are often very un-cheap.

[Jo498]

For the first >2 years I had my kindle (bought it almost exactly 3 years ago) I only got free books, mostly classics from the 19th or early 20th century. These still form the bulk of my kindle library.

With few exception, e-books seemed way too expensive, or more precisely, the difference between printed book and e-book is too small. I can re-sell, trade, lend etc. printed books and I cannot (easily) do this with e-books.

When I got hooked on Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe stories last summer, I started buying some of them as e-books. Still, they often feel too expensive (about EUR 6 vs. 8 for the pbck and a used pbck can be sometimes bought for about 4) for shortish entertainment books published often 60-70 years ago by an author who lived 1886-1975. (If I was making the rules, they would be PD by now.)

But in Germany I cannot easily grab English language editions of them at a library or used bookstore, so I have to order from abroad and this takes time, so I bought about 10 as Ebooks but am still happy about the ones I could find cheaply as pbcks.

I also bought one semi-scholarly book which was much cheaper (by factor of 5 or so) and far more easily available as e-book.