Blackfish

[aryagonnakill#2]

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Red Wedding happened in part because the Freys and the 3,500 with Roose outnumbered Robb. Somehow I doubt the BWB have the same numbers.

Nor do I think they know when or where this marriage is likely to take place. It would seem a pretty pointless reason for the Blackfish to hide given the lack of information he has on the subject.

Its certainly less ridiculous than the BWB overpowering 400 men on horseback who left from Riverrun to the Westerlands which is only a few days ride.

[Blackfish Tully]

51 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

No, that is precisely what happened. The first time they put the noose around his nephews neck he knew the Freys, responsible for the Red Wedding, were capable. He was willing to sacrifice Edmure to hold onto Riverrun a bit longer

As I said, he was willing to sacrifice his nephew.

 

So you're saying that whether or not Blackfish surrenders the Castle will effect whether or not the Freys will hang Edmure?

Why would you think that ? The Freys are going to decide to murder or not murder Edmure because they want to not because of anything Blackfish does .

Of course Blackfish can get the Freys to swear an oath to not murder Edmure if he surrenders the castle . I'm sure they would keep that oath , they are an honorable family , it's not like they just murdered 3000 people at a wedding.

56 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Yes clearly. One of us is basing our opinion on events that happened in the books and the other on our avatar.

 

 Actually i'm the one basing his opinion on the events that happened in the book , you are the one whose opinion is clouded by your  love of the Freys and hatred of Robb and Blackfish.  

 

58 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

No, that is precisely what happened. The first time they put the noose around his nephews neck he knew the Freys, responsible for the Red Wedding, were capable. He was willing to sacrifice Edmure to hold onto Riverrun a bit longer

As I said, he was willing to sacrifice his nephew.

 

Frankly Blackfish not surrendering the castle may have the only thing keeping Edmure alive , the moment the castle is surrendered what do the Freys need Edmure for ? As long as he's alive he's a threat to the Freys power in the Riverlands. 

[Kaibaman]

Maybe Blackfish won't try to rescue Edmure right away as it would be suicidal. But given that while Edmure has been shipped to CR first with Roslin soon to join him after she gives birth. I think Brynden could team up with her cause she does genuinely love Edmure and would be willing to help her uncle in law protect her husband. My guess is while she is going through her final trimester, she'll meet Blackfish and make him part of her escort under an alias and together they will plan an elaborate escape that involves getting the three of them out of CR and back to the Riverlands where they could muster support and take back the Riverlands. Of course by then Aegon could have beaten them to it and they will be back to square one as I doubt they will be able to convince the Riverlords to fight against the last Targaryen who unlike them has an army and resources.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Its certainly less ridiculous than the BWB overpowering 400 men on horseback who left from Riverrun to the Westerlands which is only a few days ride.

 

I agree.

 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

So you're saying that whether or not Blackfish surrenders the Castle will effect whether or not the Freys will hang Edmure?

I'm not saying anything. In the books Edmure's life was threatened and the Blackfish was willing to let his nephew die.

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Why would you think that ? The Freys are going to decide to murder or not murder Edmure because they want to not because of anything Blackfish does .

Again, this is the book not me. Surrender the castle or we hang your nephew. He chose the latter.

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Of course Blackfish can get the Freys to swear an oath to not murder Edmure if he surrenders the castle . I'm sure they would keep that oath , they are an honorable family , it's not like they just murdered 3000 people at a wedding.

All fine points and none negate my point. The Blackfish was willing to see Edmure die so he could hold on to Riverrun for a few more months.

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 Actually i'm the one basing his opinion on the events that happened in the book , you are the one whose opinion is clouded by your  love of the Freys and hatred of Robb and Blackfish.  

lol

[Dorian Martell]

10 hours ago, dariopatke said:

What do you think will happen to him in WoW? Did he take Jeyne when he escaped RR? Where will he go? To Brotherhood? Or even to Stormlands or Essos when he realises Targs are his only chance of retakig RR (not likely though, they did side with Robert, but certanly better than under Lannister rule, I think better chances are with Daenerys because of GC)? If he has Jeyne, how will her story go?

He either swam away to gather forces or he is hidden in Riverrun waiting for a time to strike against the new Frey rulers 

[Blackfish Tully]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I'm not saying anything. In the books Edmure's life was threatened and the Blackfish was willing to let his nephew die.

Again, this is the book not me. Surrender the castle or we hang your nephew. He chose the latter.

All fine points and none negate my point. The Blackfish was willing to see Edmure die so he could hold on to Riverrun for a few more months.

lol

Blackfish did not "let" anything happen . The Freys had Edmure as a prisoner and there was nothing Blackfish could do about it . Unless you think that he could trust the Freys to not hang Edmure if he surrendered the castle . Edmure would live or die on the whim of the Freys and Blackfish surrendering would not change that one bit , he knew that and frankly anybody with any sense would know that, i'm sure you do as well but are to stubborn to admit it . 

Not surrendering the castle was probably the only thing that saved Edmure . 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

9 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Blackfish did not "let" anything happen . The Freys had Edmure as a prisoner and there was nothing Blackfish could do about it .

Now you are being ridiculous, there was something he could have done. He chose not to, he would rather see Edmure die than give up Riverrun. That happened.

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Unless you think that he could trust the Freys to not hang Edmure if he surrendered the castle .

Again, we have been over this. He is free to trust or not trust whoever he wants. He was given a choice with a noose around Edmure's neck. He was willing to let him die.

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Edmure would live or die on the whim of the Freys and Blackfish surrendering would not change that one bit , he knew that and frankly anybody with any sense would know that, i'm sure you do as well but are to stubborn to admit it . 

Where have I denied that. All I have said is what the books have told us. They gave the Blackfish a choice; surrender or we hang your nephew. He picked option B. He may well have had very good reason to do this, but he was still willing to sacrifice his nephew.

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Not surrendering the castle was probably the only thing that saved Edmure . 

lol

How do you figure that? He surrendered the castle and Edmure is still alive.

[Blackfish Tully]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How do you figure that? He surrendered the castle and Edmure is still alive.

Because it was surrendered to Jamie , if he had surrendered it in the beginning of the siege Jamie would not have been there to take Edmure and he would have been at the mercy of the Freys and they have shown very little mercy so far.  

 

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Now you are being ridiculous, there was something he could have done. He chose not to, he would rather see Edmure die than give up Riverrun. That happened.

Because he knew that no matter what he did it would not effect if the Freys killed Edmure or not . He was not choosing whether or not to let Edmure hang , that choice was not in his hands , how can you not understand this? 

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

9 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Yeah, this is probably the likeliest possibility, though for some reason I don't like the idea of the Tullys getting involved with the Nu Dark Brotherhood and the horrible thing Cat has become. 

But a more crackpot idea is that the Blackfish is gonna show up at the Vale, or more specifically at his old joint of the Gates of the Moon, during 

Hidden Content

 

Awesome idea man I love it 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

39 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Because it was surrendered to Jamie , if he had surrendered it in the beginning of the siege Jamie would not have been there to take Edmure and he would have been at the mercy of the Freys and they have shown very little mercy so far.  

 He does not trust the Kingslayer any more than he trusts the Freys. I actually think he trusts him less.

Though in fairness you seem to have misunderstood what happened. Jaime threatened to kill Edmure's unborn child, he then released him and once Edmurre was in his castle he surrendered as it was no longer the Blackfish's call but the Lord of Riverruns.

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Because he knew that no matter what he did it would not effect if the Freys killed Edmure or not . He was not choosing whether or not to let Edmure hang , that choice was not in his hands , how can you not understand this? 

The choice was in his hands. He chose to not take the risk. You can't say that he did not have a choice because he quite clearly did.

Ned was in a similar situation when Sana's life was threatened. He chose to take that risk to save Sansa. I think had the Freys put a noose around Cat's neck instead of Edmures and Robb was in place of the Blackfish then he too would have taken the risk.

 

The Blackfish quite clearly thought Edmure was not worth the risk, which is perfectly fine but that takes away your creditability that he would try to save him considering how incredibly dangerous, and lets face it unlikely, such a mission would be.

[Kaibaman]

40 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Blackfish quite clearly thought Edmure was not worth the risk, which is perfectly fine but that takes away your creditability that he would try to save him considering how incredibly dangerous, and lets face it unlikely, such a mission would be.

I do wonder what was Blackfish's plan exactly. Was he just going to hold out in Riverrun until the besiegers eventually try to overrun the castle and kill everyone including himself or just dig in his heels until the Lannisters give him better terms? I mean could have left Riverrun at any time and go on the lam but instead chose to hold out just to stick it to his enemies.

[Blackfish Tully]

17 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Though in fairness you seem to have misunderstood what happened. Jaime threatened to kill Edmure's unborn child, he then released him and once Edmurre was in his castle he surrendered as it was no longer the Blackfish's call but the Lord of Riverruns.

 

I didn't misunderstand anything . Blackfish is Warden of the  Southern Marches , which includes Riverrun, so it was his decision not Edmure's . As to why the Balckfish decided to surrender the castle we will have to wait till the next book to find out. 

 

22 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Blackfish quite clearly thought Edmure was not worth the risk, which is perfectly fine but that takes away your creditability that he would try to save him considering how incredibly dangerous, and lets face it unlikely, such a mission would be.

what risk? Blackfish knew that no matter what he did , the Freys would do whatever they wanted with Edmure so he was not risking Edmure's life one bit. 

 

11 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

12 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

I do wonder what was Blackfish's plan exactly. Was he just going to hold out in Riverrun until the besiegers eventually try to overrun the castle and kill everyone including himself or just dig in his heels until the Lannisters give him better terms? I mean could have left Riverrun at any time and go on the lam but instead chose to hold out just to stick it to his enemies.

we will have to wait till the next book to find out what he was thinking and why he did what he did , i'm assuming it had something to do with Robb's Queen . 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

17 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I didn't misunderstand anything .

Yeah, you did.

A good death is all the Blackfish can hope for . . . but you have years remaining, Edmure. And you are the rightful lord of House Tully, not him. Your uncle serves at your pleasure. The fate of Riverrun is in your hands."

Edmure stared. "The fate of Riverrun . . ."

"Yield the castle and no one dies.

That is what happened. Edmure released and then he surrendered the castle.

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 Blackfish is Warden of the  Southern Marches ,

Which means what exactly? Point to the text that says that he now has the final say?

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which includes Riverrun, so it was his decision not Edmure's .

No, we are told it was Edmures.

And Robb was King of the North, it did not stop the Bolton and Karstark men obeying their Lords and disobeying him.

The garrison of Riverrun, the place Brynden has been absent from the last 15 years, know who their Lord is/was.

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As to why the Balckfish decided to surrender the castle we will have to wait till the next book to find out. 

We already have found out. I provided the quote. Bbut I am Happy to resume this conversation when TWOW is published and you find this imaginary evidence you think you will find.

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what risk? Blackfish knew that no matter what he did , the Freys would do whatever they wanted with Edmure so he was not risking Edmure's life one bit. 

Exact same situation Ned was in with the untrustworthy Lannisters. He chose to take the risk as Sansa was worth the risk while the Blackfish did not think Edmure was worth the risk.

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we will have to wait till the next book to find out what he was thinking and why he did what he did , i'm assuming it had something to do with Robb's Queen . 

But we don't. GRRM is very clear on what happened.

"I did all that was asked of me."

"Oh?" Jaime Lannister had not slept since Riverrun had opened its gates, and his head was pounding. "I do not recall asking you to let Ser Brynden escape."

"You required me to surrender my castle, not my uncle. Am I to blame if your men let him slip through their siege lines?"

 

[Blackfish Tully]

25 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Which means what exactly? Point to the text that says that he now has the final say?

 

He's Warden of the Southern Marches , appointed by Robb to rule the Southern part of his kingdom which includes Riverrun . If Robb was there he would have had the final decision so why would that not apply to the man he appointed. 

 

27 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

That is what happened. Edmure released and then he surrendered the castle.

 

 

we have no idea what happened after Edmure went inside Riverrun. 

 

27 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

And Robb was King of the North, it did not stop the Bolton and Karstark men obeying their Lords and disobeying him.

The garrison of Riverrun, the place Brynden has been absent from the last 15 years, know who their Lord is/was.

 

Those men betrayed their King , are you saying that the men of Riverrun betrayed Robb for Edmure?

 

30 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

We already have found out. I provided the quote. Bbut I am Happy to resume this conversation when TWOW is published and you find this imaginary evidence you think you will find.

 

What quote ? you have a chapter where Edmure and Backfish discuss the surrender of the castle  ? Can you show it to me i would love to see it . 

 

31 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

But we don't. GRRM is very clear on what happened.

"I did all that was asked of me."

"Oh?" Jaime Lannister had not slept since Riverrun had opened its gates, and his head was pounding. "I do not recall asking you to let Ser Brynden escape."

"You required me to surrender my castle, not my uncle. Am I to blame if your men let him slip through their siege lines?"

 

clear as mud , do you think Edmure is going to tell Jaimie anything about what happened? Jaimie is Edmure's enemy and he's not going to give him any clue of what's going on and what his and Balckfish's plans are so if you think that this quote gives us any idea what really happened you are fooling yourself. 

[Blackfish Tully]

36 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Yeah, you did.

A good death is all the Blackfish can hope for . . . but you have years remaining, Edmure. And you are the rightful lord of House Tully, not him. Your uncle serves at your pleasure. The fate of Riverrun is in your hands."

Edmure stared. "The fate of Riverrun . . ."

"Yield the castle and no one dies.

That is what happened. Edmure released and then he surrendered the castle.

 

I doubt it was that simple , There is not many Knights in Westeroes who are more respected then Blackfish , even Jaimie idolizes him, Edmure as well , he would not have surrendered the castle without getting his uncle on board.  

[thelittledragonthatcould]

20 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

He's Warden of the Southern Marches , appointed by Robb to rule the Southern part of his kingdom which includes Riverrun .

You have made that up. At no point in the text does is say that he now rules Riverrun. You are guessing as at no point in the books does it say that Edmure was stripped of being the Lord of the Rivelands. 

Jaime was made Warden of the East and yet Lysa and Robin still had authority over the Eyrie.

 

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If Robb was there he would have had the final decision so why would that not apply to the man he appointed. 

Back it up with evidence like I did. Show the passage that states that the Blackfish outranks Edmure in his own castle.

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we have no idea what happened after Edmure went inside Riverrun. 

Yes we do.

Here is how the events in the book went down

1. Jaime meets with the Blackfish, asks him to surrender. Blackfish refuses

2. Jaime threatens the life of Edmure's unborn child tells him he will release him and that as Lord of Riverun it is his castle and not the Blackfish's. He has the authority over the castle.

3. Edmure is released and the castle surrenders

4. Edmure directly says he surrendered the castle.

It can not be any clearer. It is not just suggesting that Edmure gave the order, GRRM is directly telling us that he did so.

This is why it is impossible to discuss the Blackfish as you will even argue about something that is as black and white as this.

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Those men betrayed their King , are you saying that the men of Riverrun betrayed Robb for Edmure?

No, I'm saying that their first loyalty was to their Lord. They did not crown Robb King, Edmure and a bunch of other nobles did.

Edmure is their Lord, that is who they have sworn their oaths to. His orders take precedence.

Infact Edmure is the Head of House Tully, he is his uncles Lord as well. It is Brynden's duty to obey the Head of the House.

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What quote ? you have a chapter where Edmure and Backfish discuss the surrender of the castle  ? Can you show it to me i would love to see it .

I have already provided two direct quotes.

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 clear as mud , do you think Edmure is going to tell Jaimie anything about what happened?

What are you blabbering about.

"You required me to surrender my castle, not my uncle. Am I to blame if your men let him slip through their siege lines?"

This is what GRRM wrote. Edmure, not the Blackfish, surrendered Riverrun.

11 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I doubt it was that simple , There is not many Knights in Westeroes who are more respected then Blackfish , even Jaimie idolizes him, Edmure as well , he would not have surrendered the castle without getting his uncle on board.  

Maybe. I have never denied that. But it was Edmure's choice to surrender. Jaime, trying to ape Tywin, scared the shit out of Edmure by threatening his unborn child and Edmure, not the Blackfish, surrendered the castle.

When I said you misunderstood the situation, it is clear that you did as the text shows.

[Blackfish Tully]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

You have made that up. At no point in the text does is say that he now rules Riverrun. You are guessing as at no point in the books does it say that Edmure was stripped of being the Lord of the Rivelands. 

Jaime was made Warden of the East and yet Lysa and Robin still had authority over the Eyrie.

 

When Robb was made King of the Trident did that mean Edmure was no longer ruler of Riverrun? So why would that be different when Blackfish was named Warden of the Southern Marches? Edmure is still Lord of Riverrun but Blackfish is Lord of the Riverlands , it's pretty simple. 

 

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Back it up with evidence like I did. Show the passage that states that the Blackfish outranks Edmure in his own castle.

 

Evidence ? is this a court of Law now ? Blackfish is Lord of The Southern Marches and that includes Riverrun , what more evidence do you need? 

 

3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

I have already provided two direct quotes.

 

were they from Blackfish and Edmure talking in Riverrun ? 

 

5 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Here is how the events in the book went down

1. Jaime meets with the Blackfish, asks him to surrender. Blackfish refuses

2. Jaime threatens the life of Edmure's unborn child tells him he will release him and that as Lord of Riverun it is his castle and not the Blackfish's. He has the authority over the castle.

 

So Jaimie decides who is in charge of Riverrun , how does that work?

 

6 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

8 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

9 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

No, I'm saying that their first loyalty was to their Lord. They did not crown Robb King, Edmure and a bunch of other nobles did.

Edmure is their Lord, that is who they have sworn their oaths to. His orders take precedence.

Infact Edmure is the Head of House Tully, he is his uncles Lord as well. It is Brynden's duty to obey the Head of the House.

I

When did the Blackfish ever swear an oath to Edmure? Blackfish was sworn as Knight of the Gate to Jon Arryn and then he returned to the Riverlands and swore to serve Robb .  so when did he take Edmure as his Lord ? Edmure bent the knee to Robb so that made him and all of his men Robb's men . Robb appointed Blackfish Warden of the Souithern Marches so Edmure and all his men are now Blackfish's men . I'm sure that everyone in Riverrun including Edmure understood that . 

Jaimme, trying to ape Tywin, scared the shit out of Edmure by threatening his unborn child and Edmure, not the Blackfish, surrendered the castle.

When I said you misunderstood the situation, it is clear that you did as the text shows.

that's what we see from Jaimie's POV , what really happened when Edmure went into Riverrun will just have to wait on the next book. 

[Blackfish Tully]

22 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Infact Edmure is the Head of House Tully, he is his uncles Lord as well. It is Brynden's duty to obey the Head of the House.

I

That's not how it works . Using that logic then the Mountain is still the Hound's lord. 

Brynden served Jon Arryn for many years and then bent the knee to Robb . No where in the book does it mention him swearing an oath to serve Edmure instead he is appointed by the King of the Trident , Edmure's lord , as Warden of the Southerm Marches . He's Edmure's superior when it comes to matters of the Riverlands and last time i checked Riverrun is in the Riverlands. . 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

When Robb was made King of the Trident did that mean Edmure was no longer ruler of Riverrun? So why would that be different when Blackfish was named Warden of the Southern Marches? Edmure is still Lord of Riverrun but Blackfish is Lord of the Riverlands , it's pretty simple. 

 

Evidence ? is this a court of Law now ? Blackfish is Lord of The Southern Marches and that includes Riverrun , what more evidence do you need? 

It does not state that in the books.

 The people of Riverrun, like Stone Hedge, like Pinkmaiden, like Atranta, like Wayfarer's Rest etc. have a Lord who they obey regardless of what Brynden Tully says. That is why they all surrendered when their Lords told them to despite what the Blackfish may or may not want.

Edmure Tully is the Lord of Riverrun, if he walks into his castle and surrenders his castle then that is his prerogative.

As for Brynden being made Warden of the Southern Marches:

•  You have absolutely no idea what he was and was not in command of, what authority he had. You are guessing, trying to make your hero seem far more important than he is.
• He was given that title by a dead man who is no longer King and his kingdom no longer exists
• Even in the Appendices the Blackfish's position as Castellan of Riverrun is seen as more important than his 'wardenship'. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Feast_for_Crows-Appendix#House_Stark

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

were they from Blackfish and Edmure talking in Riverrun ? 

No, they were from Edmure directly telling us that he surrendered the castle. That is pretty conclusive, now maybe in the future this will be discredited but all the evidence we have right now says that Edmure surrendered the castle.

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

So Jaimie decides who is in charge of Riverrun , how does that work?

No idea what you are blabbering about here. Sorry.

Edmure inherited Riverrun from his father as he was the oldest son. Jaime had nothing to do with it.  How do you not understand something so simple?

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

that's what we see from Jaimie's POV , what really happened when Edmure went into Riverrun will just have to wait on the next book. 

We already know what happened. Edmure told us. Now that may change come the next book, but as far as we know Edmure was the one to surrender the castle. This is true about any event in the book that we have been told about, it may be revealed in the next book that something else happened.

But for Now all the available evidence we have says that Edmure, not the Blackfish, surrendered the castle.

 

8 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

That's not how it works . Using that logic then the Mountain is still the Hound's lord. 

The Hound is an outlaw, he obeys no one.

8 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Brynden served Jon Arryn for many years and then bent the knee to Robb . No where in the book does it mention him swearing an oath to serve Edmure instead he is appointed by the King of the Trident , Edmure's lord ,

Correct then. As it is not said in the book then you are right.

8 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

as Warden of the Southerm Marches . He's Edmure's superior when it comes to matters of the Riverlands and last time i checked Riverrun is in the Riverlands. . 

 

Nowhere in the books does it say that Brynden is Edmure's superior.