How Ice Became Dawn (Updated)

[Lady Dyanna]

25 minutes ago, Voice of the First Men said:

But yes, why Ashara... It might be that she was the Lady of the house at that point. Edric is a very young Lord, and I believe Ashara is older than Allyria. It would be like Sansa becoming Lady Protector of Winterfell until Bran or Rickon came of age, methinks.

Yay! Quick Quotes worked!  Anyway... Don't forget, this is Dorne with equal inheritance.  It might very well be that Ashara IS the Lady of Starfall in her own right.  Ned Dayne's father would have to be older than Ashara or her parents still be alive for that not to be the case. 

[Anath]

Quite an intriguing theory, OP! One question: does Bran the Builder become "himself" again after the Night's King has been brought down? You only mention that the Night's King retreated with the Others. I can't see how Bran would have been allowed to keep his life after that.

How does your theory of this Bran's heirs gaining a  hereditory sword and even Winterfell itself fit with Old Nan's story claiming that it was the Stark of Winterfell who brought the Night's King down, along with others? In this case, I can't see how Bran's heirs can get Winterfell since there was a Stark there and he supposedly had a line of his own. How did Bran's heirs become the Kings of Winter? I doubt they'd be allowed to keep any possessions left from their father in this scenario. Or do you think Old Nan got some details wrong and Winterfell indeed didn't exist then?

As to Dawn and Ashara, Ned Dayne says his father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Thus, Ashara, being described as a young girl not long at court, was younger than both of them. I'd rather say that Ned bringing the sword to her has something to do with the literary tradition of a lady deciding who is worthy to wield a certain sword, like the Lady of the Lake, or even with the lady as being worthy to physically carry a sacred object, like the maidens who carried the Holy Grail. A lady, traditionally pure of heart and a maiden. Of course, we have a good reason to think Ashara was no maiden and we don't know anything about the purity of her heart or lackthereof. GRRM's little laugh over the romantization of the idea? He certainly doesn't shy from denouncing the romantics of war and brave and brilliant knights.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

1 hour ago, Voice of the First Men said:

This forum has one.

I hope you'll read my reply to Doran's excellent reply, though.

 

I have done. I don't want to agree with you about this whole thing but you do put a solid argument forward. IMO i'm really not good at the heavy discussion like a lot of you but I have some random thoughts/questions to offer;

- Has it been confirmed that only a Dayne can wield darkstar? I thought it was insinuated that the sword kind of presents itself to the person who proves themselves worthy of it. Although the Daynes have supposedly had the sword for thousands of years, I don't think we've ever been told how they came about owning it.

- Regarding TNK himself; The Others aren't meant to be ugly corpse-like things as depicted on TV. They're meant to be strangely beautiful and elegant. So i'm thinking this bride of his was an other, but she was probably (irony ahead) pretty hot and that's why TNK "chased" her.

- The reason I brought up TNK is because it seems there's an argument that the original Ice was tampered with by TNK and with the help of his hot vamp wife, they changed it into something resembling an Other blade. Somewhere along the way House Dayne ended up with this Stark Ancestral Sword. The issue I have with this is rather simple, but I would assume the blade would have to be "impossibly cold" and i'm wondering how some random Dayne is able to hold it. It's known that house Dayne is only famous for the sword, so there's doesn't seem to be anything special about them besides Arthur being a famously handy fighter.

TLDR;

- I like the theory but i'm not sold and TBH, if Longclaw can really do this

then why would he (or anyone) even need Dawn? Ned and Howland still starched Arthur Dayne while he had Dawn.

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

My question is, why bothered to create a story like:

original ice disappeared then 500 years ago stark got a replacement which they again named ice. 

This seems to be quite unnecessary. 

Is this just GRRM was fooling us and misleading us to think about " where is the real ice"? 

Or he wanted to make the reforging of ice less sad to stark fans? 

[LmL]

3 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

My question is, why bothered to create a story like:

original ice disappeared then 500 years ago stark got a replacement which they again named ice. 

This seems to be quite unnecessary. 

Is this just GRRM was fooling us and misleading us to think about " where is the real ice"? 

Or he wanted to make the reforging of ice less sad to stark fans? 

Correcrion: the original Ice was never said to disappear at any specific time. It's only said the current one came from Valyria 400 years ago (and that only comes from Cat); it's not specified when the original Ice was lost, or how many other swords there may have been in between called Ice. 

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

8 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

My question is, why bothered to create a story like:

original ice disappeared then 500 years ago stark got a replacement which they again named ice. 

This seems to be quite unnecessary. 

Is this just GRRM was fooling us and misleading us to think about " where is the real ice"? 

Or he wanted to make the reforging of ice less sad to stark fans? 

Why can't it be both?? IMO Original Ice will be recovered in the lands of always winter, with Benjen.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Correcrion: the original Ice was never said to disappear at any specific time. It's only said the current one came from Valyria 400 years ago (and that only comes from Cat); it's not specified when the original Ice was lost, or how many other swords there may have been in between called Ice. 

Yeah, I just feel it is quite confusing and unnecessary to make two ICE swords there.

We never had two swords sharing the same name, did not we?

Maybe this is just some random mystery GRRM planted.

like the crown of Aegon I.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

3 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

I'm not following the logic... how so?

I think LmL meant that, if Dawn is Ice, it's already Jon's heritage by way of being half Stark. So Jon doesn't also need to be a Dayne.

 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

Yeah, I just feel it is quite confusing and unnecessary to make two ICE swords there.

We never had two swords sharing the same name, did not we?

Maybe this is just some random mystery GRRM planted.

like the crown of Aegon I.

 

Yes, the other example is Lady Forlorn, which is now Valyrian steel but in the past was a more conventional steel. 

My point is that we are only told that:

1. Ice came from Valyria, 400 years ago
2. The Valyrian steel Ice is not the original Ice

Just for the record. We can speculate and fill in that gap any way we want, but those are the bits of info we are given. I kind of think that if the original Ice was only lost 400 years ago, that would have been mentioned. What it does show is that Martin has always had the idea in mind of some long lost sword named Ice, and I think the big "white as milkglass" sword is a decent candidate, as @Voice clearly does.

[LmL]

25 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I think LmL meant that, if Dawn is Ice, it's already Jon's heritage by way of being half Stark. So Jon doesn't also need to be a Dayne.

 

Yep, that's it exactly. Plus, Dany and Jon are both approximately 25% Dayne because of Targaryen incest for three generations before them and Egg's Dayne mother, Dyanna Dayne. 

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Yes, the other example dis Lady Forlorn, which is now Valyrian steel but in the past was a more conventional steel. 

My point is that we are only told that:

1. Ice came from Valyria, 400 years ago
2. The Valyrian steel Ice is not the original Ice

Just for the record. We can speculate and fill in that gap any way we want, but those are the bits of info we are given. I kind of think that if the original Ice was only lost 400 years ago, that would have been mentioned. What it does show is that Martin has always had the idea in mind of some long lost sword named Ice, and I think the big "white as milkglass" sword is a decent candidate, as @Voice clearly does.

I doubt.

I agree it is tempting since dawn is indeed pale like "ice". 

But I feel it hard to believe why house stark would give their family sword to house dayne and we know house dayne stays in the far south for 10000 years. They are very very far from house stark. 

 

[LmL]

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I doubt.

I agree it is tempting since dawn is indeed pale like "ice". 

But I feel it hard to believe why house stark would give their family sword to house dayne and we know house dayne stays in the far south for 10000 years. They are very very far from house stark. 

 

Well, if it was the sword of the terrible King of Winter, then maybe they took it from him and keep it far away from his descendants, something like that. Sometimes when a treaty is made between warring factions, important swords are exchanged.

 

[purple-eyes]

You jon fans are way too greedy. 

So he had longclaw, he will have blackfyre, and now he will have dawn as well? 

Does he have so many hands to wield them? 

Or this is like his jewelry, he used one based on his outfit or mood for that day? 

 

To be serious, 

I do agree dawn is special and it does fit the name of ice. 

I mean this is song of ice and fire. Everything is symmetrical here. 

Jon snow and dany. Dragon and others. Dragonbinder and horn of winters. 

So if there is a sword called blackfyre, maybe there should be a sword like a white ice. 

And this one had to be dawn. 

I agree it maybe a sword from the others, the night's king, maybe. 

Perhaps darkstar will become the night king! 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

Just an observation. Much is made of the fact that the Daynes came to Westeros to settle and forged Dawn from the heart of a fallen star.  Is it ever determined that the fallen star is meant to truly be a celestial star fallen to earth? Might it also be a representation of a fallen hero? Maybe the Night's King?

[purple-eyes]

5 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Just an observation. Much is made of the fact that the Daynes came to Westeros to settle and forged Dawn from the heart of a fallen star.  Is it ever determined that the fallen star is meant to truly be a celestial star fallen to earth? Might it also be a representation of a fallen hero? Maybe the Night's King?

Who knows? So far it looks like it is from a real shooting star. 

But There is a chance that it came from night's king, a falling stark. 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

So he had longclaw

But Longclaw has never felt right in Jon's hands.  I tend to believe that Longclaw will eventually be returned to the Mormonts, specifically Jorah.

6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

, he will have blackfyre,

I hadn't heard that one.  I don't think that this is anything that @Voice of the First Men would agree with from the OP.

6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

and now he will have dawn as well

It has been foreshadowed. @Sly Wren has writen an entire series of posts on this.  When Jon emerged from the cave with Ygritte, he sees the sword of the morning constellation still hanging in the south. This comes to him after spending time searching for his identity.

[Lady Dyanna]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Who knows? So far it looks like it is from a real shooting star. 

It certainly does.  But I also think Martin is quite talented at making us look the other way, which makes me wonder...

[Voice of the First Men]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think you've misunderstood my theory. How do you think the Dayne's got Dawn? It just so happens they got it around the same time as the rise/downfall of the Night's King... and... unsurprisingly... the End of The Long Night.  

Yes, I would have to have misunderstood as I read the Daynes are an ancient house, established or founded in Westeros when the 1st Dayne followed the trail of a fallen star.   But you're right, it doesn't say when the star fell or give a particular time.   I am the victim of supposition in text here. 

It's all good, CF. And I'd add that we aren't told if that fallen star was an actual meteorite or a fallen king with stars for eyes. I'm thinking the fallen star > Starfall > Winterfell wordplay are all describing the same event: the downfall of Night's King.

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Indeed. But you are acting as if Dawn and House Dayne existed prior to the Last Hero and Night's King. The text does not bear such a suggestion. 

Certainly puts a twist on my time line doesn't it?

It does.

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Indeed. But we don't even know if the Sword of the Evening wields Dawn.  

Frickin' Daynes are just a black hole of endless mystery.

Oh yeah... and there's much, much more beyond the scope of this conversation.

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I would point out that the mere fact that House Dayne has known Swords of the Morning and Swords of the Evening means it is a House accustomed with Light and Dark Warriors - see the story of Night's King.  

This is really good requires investigation. 

Thanks

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I have submitted the same proposal. I am the guy who coined the idea that the reason why the great families/houses covet Valyrian Steel, is that it is the fabled dragonsteel of the Annals. And, that it was valued by lord protectors and wardens of territories when they actually had to protect and ward their bannermen and vassals from the Others. Watcher on the walls.  I agree very much with the bold, and disagree very much with the Targs being equalizers. They are not. Targs are but another threat to the realm, not the saviors of it.  

Easy Voice, I'm a huge fan of the swords and a possible reenactment of TLH scenario.  I am working on a spreadsheet and need help with it, don't tempt me to sent it to you with my tears on it.   I'd love to hear exactly what you think the Starks actually did to earn their renown after the Long Night.   My only qualm with the Targs as Satan Incarnate is the swords.   It was the Valyrians who made these swords and imported them to Westeros.   I can't believe they didn't understand exactly what VS was really for.  As I read it, the advent of VS became prevalent shortly after the Doom--isn't that a coincidence.   I never thought the Targs were saviors, but I have to believe their dragons and fire magic are half of balance that needs be restored.  Without Aegon and Visenya's soon to be revealed VS we would not have the correct heroes:swords ratio.    If VS is only a recent invention could dragon steel have been made from the heart of a meteor? As I said, my offering was not researched or thought out, just a small from the hip alternative to your ideas. 

LOL, no worries friend. I'm not at all adverse to the idea of Targs providing some help. If they help, then great. But I don't think they will. They made swords to arm their warriors that were better than the swords of their enemies. Hence their "holding of the free (folk)" and their age of colonization and imperialism.

Also, Valyrians used Dragons to defeat their foes. They never once brought balance to Westeros, they brought conquest. Aegon I was not a hero, he was The Conqueror.

Dragons are fire made flesh, and if you happen to be carbon made flesh, that makes you food, fuel, and kindling. Have you by chance read GRRM's 1993 letter to his agent? In it he mentions Dany and her dragons not as saviors, but as yet another threat to the realms of men. Dany is not a natural being, anymore. Her dragons never were. They are not pets to beg for treats and slink off at a kick, a dragon will melt the eyes from a man as easily as an Other will turn his dead eyes alive with starlight.

6 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Yay! Quick Quotes worked!  

Hey that's cool.

6 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Anyway... Don't forget, this is Dorne with equal inheritance.  It might very well be that Ashara IS the Lady of Starfall in her own right.  Ned Dayne's father would have to be older than Ashara or her parents still be alive for that not to be the case. 

Very good point, m'lady.

[Voice of the First Men]

5 hours ago, Anath said:

Quite an intriguing theory, OP! One question: does Bran the Builder become "himself" again after the Night's King has been brought down? You only mention that the Night's King retreated with the Others. I can't see how Bran would have been allowed to keep his life after that.

Ah, well there we stray away from textually supported theory into the realm of pure speculation. But, I am thinking that with his pale Queen with eyes like blue stars, Night's King retreated beyond the curtain of light. He was only a man by light of day, remember. In the darkness of the north pole, he might remain whatever he became in the darkness of the Long Night - permanently.

Like a 10,000 year old vampire, I'm thinking he would not be fond of Dawn. (Note that the Others are only seen after the sun has set...)

5 hours ago, Anath said:

How does your theory of this Bran's heirs gaining a  hereditory sword and even Winterfell itself fit with Old Nan's story claiming that it was the Stark of Winterfell who brought the Night's King down, along with others?

Yes, I can answer this, but first we must look very carefully at the text and determine who was actually the Stark of Winterfell...

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Bran IV, ASOS

Quote

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

Night's King was a Stark. That doesn't mean his brother was...

[See Robb and his "brother" Jon "I am no Stark, father" Stark]

Also, considering that we are talking about the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he has many, many brothers. Sworn brothers, of the Night's Watch. This too creates a lot of wiggle room for the Night's King to have a brother bring him down that was not named "Stark"...

There is also the not-exactly-canonical The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Night’s Watch:

Quote

Yet over the thousands of years of its existence as the chief seat of the Watch, the Nightfort has accrued many legends of its own, some of which have been recounted in Archmaester Harmune's Watchers on the Wall. The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night's King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king. For thirteen years the Night's King and his "corpse queen" ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night's King's very name from memory.

This Brandon is named Brandon! But, alas, not all Brandons are Starks. See Brandon (disambiguation):

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brandon_%28disambiguation%29

Mayhaps House Dayne was founded by a man named Brandon.

 

5 hours ago, Anath said:

In this case, I can't see how Bran's heirs can get Winterfell since there was a Stark there and he supposedly had a line of his own.

Bran the Builder? If we are talking about Bran the Builder, and if Bran the Builder was the 13th Lord Commander as I have suggested, then all we need do is remember that Old Nan said he was a man like any other by day. That means that by day, he could have been fathering trueborn sons of Winterfell.

By night, Old Nan makes it sound like he was up to other things.

Or, Bran the Builder could have founded House Stark, fathered some sons, then left to take up a live of celibacy, watching from the walls... until he glimpsed the moon-colored woman.

5 hours ago, Anath said:

How did Bran's heirs become the Kings of Winter?

Well, what else would they be called? If their father was the King of the Long Night, or if they cast down the King of the Long Night, they could retain or claim the title. It certainly seems as if they have an obsession with Winter, Ice, Kings in the North, and Kings beyond the Wall...

5 hours ago, Anath said:

I doubt they'd be allowed to keep any possessions left from their father in this scenario.

Why not? Particularly if they helped cast him down. We have many examples in the text of Lords keeping their lands and titles even when on the losing side of battle, and the Starks of Winterfell were likely on the winning side of this one. Hence their everlasting friendship with the Watch.

5 hours ago, Anath said:

Or do you think Old Nan got some details wrong

No. But I think people often conflate her statement and wrongly assume that Night's King was cast down by a "Stark". As I've pointed out, NK might easily be exiled by a brother, either sworn or bastard, who was not a Stark of Winterfell.

And, people often misappropriate whom she named as being "a Stark of Winterfell"... it wasn't the hero that cast him down ... it was the Night's King.

5 hours ago, Anath said:

and Winterfell indeed didn't exist then?

No. But I think that during this time Winterfell was little more than a heart tree, a hot pool, and a cave of the children of the forest. A cave that the Starks eventually converted into a crypt.

5 hours ago, Anath said:

As to Dawn and Ashara, Ned Dayne says his father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Thus, Ashara, being described as a young girl not long at court, was younger than both of them. I'd rather say that Ned bringing the sword to her has something to do with the literary tradition of a lady deciding who is worthy to wield a certain sword, like the Lady of the Lake, or even with the lady as being worthy to physically carry a sacred object, like the maidens who carried the Holy Grail. A lady, traditionally pure of heart and a maiden.

I think the same. And I think the Tragedy of the Palestone Tower was directly linked to this. Ashara had lost a daughter, a brother, and in my opinion, either a son or nephew (Jon Snow). Mayhaps she knew this son/nephew was the next Sword of the Morning. Mayhaps she knew Ned would be raising him. Mayhaps it was all just too much, and she threw herself from the tower.

5 hours ago, Anath said:

Of course, we have a good reason to think Ashara was no maiden and we don't know anything about the purity of her heart or lackthereof. GRRM's little laugh over the romantization of the idea? He certainly doesn't shy from denouncing the romantics of war and brave and brilliant knights.

All true. I think it very likely though that Ashara might have simply been human. Beautiful, yes. Virtuous, perhaps. Neither would be negated by a sex life.

I think Ashara's biggest problem was that she was a human parent that lost her lover and child during the rebellion. We saw how depressed Catelyn became after Bran's fall. Imagine if Bran had died along with Ned at the beginning of Robb's Rebellion. She might've jumped.

Ned told Varys he didn't value his life, even though his kids and wife were alive! Very easy to see how Ashara might take the ultimate plunge. In my thinking, she is the Nissa Nissa of the Palestone (Sword) Tower (Dawn).

[Voice of the First Men]

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

I have done. I don't want to agree with you about this whole thing but you do put a solid argument forward. IMO i'm really not good at the heavy discussion like a lot of you but I have some random thoughts/questions to offer;

Cheers, glad to help you question your convictions. An open mind is definitely a prerequisite for this one. And don't sell yourself short on the heavy discussion, you bring up some great points.

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

- Has it been confirmed that only a Dayne can wield darkstar?

I think you mean Dawn. And while it remains possible a non-Dayne could wield Dawn, we have no mention of a non-Dayne wielding Dawn. And while admittedly, it is not canon, the World book has this to say:

Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord. Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

I thought it was insinuated that the sword kind of presents itself to the person who proves themselves worthy of it. Although the Daynes have supposedly had the sword for thousands of years, I don't think we've ever been told how they came about owning it.

Indeed. One might wonder if this gap in information is tied to the conclusion of the series.

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

- Regarding TNK himself; The Others aren't meant to be ugly corpse-like things as depicted on TV. They're meant to be strangely beautiful and elegant. So i'm thinking this bride of his was an other, but she was probably (irony ahead) pretty hot and that's why TNK "chased" her.

LOL, I'd agree. Hence my avatar.

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

- The reason I brought up TNK is because it seems there's an argument that the original Ice was tampered with by TNK and with the help of his hot vamp wife, they changed it into something resembling an Other blade. Somewhere along the way House Dayne ended up with this Stark Ancestral Sword. The issue I have with this is rather simple, but I would assume the blade would have to be "impossibly cold" and i'm wondering how some random Dayne is able to hold it.

Great point. I would argue that the cold comes with the Others themselves, rather than come from their blades.

AGOT Prologue:

 

Quote

 

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

 

 

There is also the obsidian dagger Samwell used to slay an Other. It was crazy cold at first, too cold for Grenn to touch after Ser Puddles melted. But then, Samwell kept it... while Grenn points out the Dawn...

 

Samwell I, ASOS

Quote

Sobbing, Sam took another step. He had been cold so long he was forgetting what it was like to feel warm. He wore three pairs of hose, two layers of smallclothes beneath a double lambswool tunic, and over that a thick quilted coat that padded him against the cold steel of his around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.

Grenn pulled Sam to his feet, checked Small Paul for a pulse and closed his eyes, then snatched up the dagger again. This time he was able to hold it.

"You keep it," Sam said. "You're not craven like me."

"So craven you killed an Other." Grenn pointed with the knife. "Look there, through the trees. Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn. That must be east. If we head that way, we should catch Mormont."

 

 

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

It's known that house Dayne is only famous for the sword, so there's doesn't seem to be anything special about them besides Arthur being a famously handy fighter.

Well, I'd encourage you to do a reread and keep an eye on House Dayne. There is a ton that is special about them. And, Arthur wasn't all that handy... most of his power as a swordsman came from Dawn.

Jaime VIII, ASOS:

Quote

Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

If you're not thinking about Ser Waymar's duel with the Other in the AGOT Prologue, you should be.

And note that choice of words early on... "Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood" ....that sure sounds like a brotherhood of men tied to trees, which I think the Others are.

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

TLDR;

- I like the theory but i'm not sold and TBH, if Longclaw can really do this

then why would he (or anyone) even need Dawn? Ned and Howland still starched Arthur Dayne while he had Dawn.

Ah yes, if his goal is to make the Others explode like snowmen, then yes, it seems all he'd need is dragonsteel, like the Last Hero.

Sam I, Feast, & repeated in Jon XII ADWD:

Quote

 

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"

 

 

The Last Hero had dragonsteel. And slayed Others with it. But clearly, that was not a permanent solution.

 

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

My question is, why bothered to create a story like:

original ice disappeared then 500 years ago stark got a replacement which they again named ice. 

This seems to be quite unnecessary. 

Is this just GRRM was fooling us and misleading us to think about " where is the real ice"? 

Or he wanted to make the reforging of ice less sad to stark fans? 

Well, I'd say he did so because it was a pivotal moment in the end of the Long Night and the genesis of Houses Stark and Dayne.

5 hours ago, LmL said:

Correcrion: the original Ice was never said to disappear at any specific time. It's only said the current one came from Valyria 400 years ago (and that only comes from Cat); it's not specified when the original Ice was lost, or how many other swords there may have been in between called Ice. 

True, but the fact remains, "Ice" dates to the Age of Heroes, and Ned's sword did not...

Arthur Dayne's sword on the other hand...

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

Why can't it be both?? IMO Original Ice will be recovered in the lands of always winter, with Benjen.

It very well could be both. And I do hope that Benjen, at least, is recovered.