How Ice Became Dawn (Updated)

[LmL]

@Voice, regarding the idea of the Night's King and his brother, presented in the "wall of text" format for your delight:

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The wind was blowing wild from the east, so strong the heavy cage would rock whenever a gust got it in its teeth. It skirled along the Wall, shivering off the ice, making Jon’s cloak flap against the bars. The sky was slate grey, the sun no more than a faint patch of brightness behind the clouds. Across the killing ground, he could see the glimmer of a thousand campfires burning, but their lights seemed small and powerless against such gloom and cold.

A grim day. Jon Snow wrapped gloved hands around the bars and held tight as the wind hammered at the cage once more. When he looked straight down past his feet, the ground was lost in shadow, as if he were being lowered into some bottomless pit. Well, death is a bottomless pit of sorts, he reflected, and when this day’s work is done my name will be shadowed forever.

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame

 

Ignoring the clues about the meter shower (thousands of glimmering stars) and the hammer of the waters, we have Jon, the Night's King, having his name being forever shadowed as goes beyond the Wall.  He's an oathbreaker, murderer, turncloak.  

His brother is a hero king, whom we often find seated like the Kings of Winter, with a sword across his lap and a direwolf at his side. 

Discuss. 

ETA: a couple paragraphs later:

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They had pulled him out this morning, after four days in the ice, locked up in a cell five by five by five, too low for him to stand, too tight for him to stretch out on his back. The stewards had long ago discovered that food and meat kept longer in the icy storerooms carved from the base of the Wall … but prisoners did not. “You will die in here, Lord Snow,” Ser Alliser had said just before he closed the heavy wooden door, and Jon had believed it. But this morning they had come and pulled him out again, and marched him cramped and shivering back to the King’s Tower, to stand before jowly Janos Slynt once more.

@Voice, when I speak of black moon meteor symbols - like Jon - being encased in ice, this is yet another example. The NK's putting seed into the ice moon symbol of the NQ is the same. Rhaegar putting his dragon seed into Lyanna, which is Jon, he who is armored in black ice and wields a black sword which burns red. Brienne - a Morningstar / evenstar symbol as well as a moon maiden symbol, has Biter fall on her like an avalanche, and his milky, doughy face fills up half the world. I'm not sure if there is black metal under Dawn's white surface, but if there is, it would fit the pattern, as would any kind of black stone under the Wall. The wyrmwalks might qualify already as it is.  

 

[White Ravens]

On 3/6/2016 at 0:45 AM, Voice said:

I would not ask you to prove a negative, and demonstrate for me that the two-handed greatsword Dawn is not the same material as the longswords of the Others. But, I do think that if you are going to offer a rebuttal, it should include plausible alternative substances.

The requirements for such a substance are quite simple. It should:

1. be pale white or pale as milkglass
2. be able to emit light (even when it isn't on fire)
3. be made of exotic materials, preferably connected to the heart of stars
4. be able to cut steel
5. be able to bear an edge sharp enough to part human clothing and skin like silk
6. look like no Valyrian steel known, yet be as durable and sharp

 

I await your ideas.

 

Ugh.  Long walls of text I'm familiar with but now you're giving homework assignments as well?

The substance you are looking for is the heart of a fallen star, the same star that fell to earth in Dorne thousands of years ago and was followed to it's landing sight by a Dayne.  This magical pale stone was forged  into the greatsword Dawn which is as pale as milkglass.  Although much paler than Valyrian Steel the two alloys otherwise share most other properties, especially being very light and strong and can keep and hold an extremely sharp edge.  In Ned Stark's memories Dawn is described to be alive with light.

[DarkSister1001]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 9:54 PM, Voice said:

The only part I disagree with is the suggestion that there was a contemporary King of Winter during the Long Night that wasn't the Night's King.

We have several eras of Stark leadership that seem to have their correlating titles. Today, in Winter of the year 300 AC - Roose Bolton has usurped House Stark and is Warden of the North. If we look back, we can see that House Stark has been dwindling in power for quite some time.

Head of House Stark's Dominion and Title throughout Time:

Aegon's Conquest - Autumn 300 AC. "Wardens of the North" following Torrhen the Kneeler.

Andal Invasion - Aegon's Conquest. "King in the North" following the advent of seven consolidated kingdoms, Starks held the northern kingdom.

End of the Long Night - Andal Invasion. "King of Winter" following in the tradition of the Last Hero and Bran the Builder who sought to end the Winter of the Long Night. This likely occurred at a time and place that became known as "Winterfell". Conversely, the title of the "King of Winter" might be in the tradition of the Night's King.

In any case, we have no text suggesting House Stark existed at all prior to the Bran the Builder's service in the Night's Watch, nor that they were "kings" until after the end of the Long Night.

This seems to suggest that they stylized themselves the "Kings of Winter" because they endured, ended, or subdued the Long Night.

 

Just my interp of course, but I think House Stark has slowly gone from being the Kings of the Long Night (Winter), to the Kings of the North-only... Then, they were demoted to Wardens of the North... and finally, today, they are completely dethroned and out of Winterfell.

 

The Lyanna = Mamma Wolf thing just so happens to be my idea so I'm quite glad you like it.

I've been hinting at it throughout a recent group reread project, but finally laid it out more fully in this post: http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/post/13604/thread. I think the Mother Wolf was Lyanna's familiar - either in life (wolf blood), or after (Weirwood colored face, Crypt Ghost).

Whoops.  I read the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun King-Beyond-the-Wall and my mind made them both kings.  "You get a crown! you get a crown!  Everyone gets a crown!" 

I'll check out the link. 

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 8:41 AM, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

:-P

FWIW, though, I do think baby souls may have certain advantages. If you're making something that includes a human soul, a baby soul is unformed, with no memories or specific wants of its own. So it would be more maleable, kind of like how fetal stem cells work best in medical research because they can become anything. An adult soul, I think, would be more limited in what it can do. 

But as you noted this soul magic stuff is beyond the scope of this thread. Will be interested to read when you have your own post ready. :-)

Have you read my theory on Craster's boys being used to make the Others weapons and armor?  In my sig line.   

[Voice]

On 3/8/2016 at 1:55 AM, White Ravens said:

 

Ugh.  Long walls of text I'm familiar with but now you're giving homework assignments as well?

It is a course of habit. I do thank you for attempting the assignment all the same.

 

On 3/8/2016 at 1:55 AM, White Ravens said:

The substance you are looking for is the heart of a fallen star, the same star that fell to earth in Dorne thousands of years ago and was followed to it's landing sight by a Dayne.  This magical pale stone was forged  into the greatsword Dawn which is as pale as milkglass.  Although much paler than Valyrian Steel the two alloys otherwise share most other properties, especially being very light and strong and can keep and hold an extremely sharp edge.

And how, pray tell, does your description differ from Will's? You have just described "no human metal" ser, as you assert it came from the heavens.

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

On 3/8/2016 at 1:55 AM, White Ravens said:

  In Ned Stark's memories Dawn is described to be alive with light.

And this incredible alloy from the meteorite (typically just good old Iron) continue to glow after they have been forged and hammered into a sword... is that your assertion?

[Voice]

On 3/8/2016 at 8:54 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

Whoops.  I read the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun King-Beyond-the-Wall and my mind made them both kings.  "You get a crown! you get a crown!  Everyone gets a crown!" 

LOL! Thanks, but I'm not sure if I should be proud or ashamed for knowing these minutiae.

 

On 3/8/2016 at 8:54 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

I'll check out the link. 

[White Ravens]

2 hours ago, Voice said:

It is a course of habit. I do thank you for attempting the assignment all the same.

 

And how, pray tell, does your description differ from Will's? You have just described "no human metal" ser, as you assert it came from the heavens.

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

And this incredible alloy from the meteorite (typically just good old Iron) continue to glow after they have been forged and hammered into a sword... is that your assertion?

 

You're welcome.

The big difference from Will's description is that he describes it as a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed to vanish when seen edge on.  The same description goes on to state that there is a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played along the edges.  Dawn is usually described as being as pale as milkglass and even alive with light, but there is nothing in its descriptions to suggest that it is not metal and certainly nothing suggesting that it is crystal.  Dawn is as "pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp".  Valyrian blades are steel blades and, other than having a pale appearance, Dawn otherwise shares the properties of a Valyrian blade.   Therefore Dawn is a steel blade.

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The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

 

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers.

Dawn was forged from a falling star.  When a blade is forged from a meteorite that is described as a magical stone it may just appear to be alive with light.  I'm not entirely sure what to expect from magical magical metal forged from magical stones.  But, yes, I do assert that Dawn is metal that was forged and hammered from a magical stone meteorite.  You are asserting that Dawn is a blade formerly wielded by an Other and their blades appear to be made of crystal (or some magical form of ice).  I don't believe that a crystal sword on close examination would be described as having most of the properties of Valyrian Steel.  So, after many thousands of words back and forth I'm still saying what I was when I entered this thread:  Dawn already has an origin story that is provided in the story and your version requires that the Daynes and/or the Starks are lying about its origins.  Your theory suggests that Dawn isn't just as pale as milkglass but is actually not metal and looks like crystal.  Dawn is never described as looking like crystal and if did look like crystal I think that would be one of the main things said about it.

 

 

 

 

[Voice]

On 3/12/2016 at 6:05 PM, White Ravens said:

 

You're welcome.

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The big difference from Will's description is that he describes it as a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed to vanish when seen edge on.

LOL what? How is that a big difference? Unless Westerosi swords are usually shaped like sharpened baseball bats, they all would seem to vanish when seen edge-on. They're swords! LOL

I think what is standing out to Will, is that this blade seems to be made of nonhuman metal/crystal, and yet, is thin as a blade.

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  The same description goes on to state that there is a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played along the edges.  Dawn is usually described as being as pale as milkglass and even alive with light,

Ah, you see? There are precious few blades in our story that are alive with light. We have Beric's ignited blade, Stannis' no-heat blade, the longswords of the Others, and the longsword Dawn. And, that's it.

Which of those blades is Dawn most like?

Well, it isn't on fire when it is alive with light, so it isn't like Beric's. It also isn't accompanied by a glamour-producing shadowbinder from Asshai (not to mention Stannis' blade appeared rather ordinary to Davos and Salladhor at his coming out party).

That leaves us with the longsword of an Other.

 

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but there is nothing in its descriptions to suggest that it is not metal and certainly nothing suggesting that it is crystal.  Dawn is as "pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp".  Valyrian blades are steel blades and, other than having a pale appearance, Dawn otherwise shares the properties of a Valyrian blade.   Therefore Dawn is a steel blade.

Ah, back to relying on Maester Yandel who has never seen Dawn...

So you are asserting then, that a steel meteorite fell from the sky and the Daynes forged it into a sword that continues to radiate light?

I don't really hear you accounting for the "paleness" of Dawn, either.

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Dawn was forged from a falling star.  When a blade is forged from a meteorite that is described as a magical stone it may just appear to be alive with light. 

Oh, I was kidding, but apparently that is what you are asserting...

"It may"...?

Hmm. Ok. I suppose I should admire your explanation's brevity rather than lament its lack of support. I'm beginning to understand your aversion to quotes from the novels.

And I thought you just said a moment ago that "Dawn is a steel blade." ... did I imagine that?

Or are you now claiming that steel is a "magical stone"? LOL

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I'm not entirely sure what to expect from magical magical metal forged from magical stones.  But, yes, I do assert that Dawn is metal that was forged and hammered from a magical stone meteorite.  You are asserting that Dawn is a blade formerly wielded by an Other and their blades appear to be made of crystal (or some magical form of ice). 

Ice, not crystal, but yes, indeed I am. You may be interested to know, or not, that objects such as you describe often freeze in space. Meteors and comets are celestial bits of rock and iron and ice. "Nonhuman metal" and ice. If that isn't a magical form of ice, I don't know what is.

While no meteorites are mentioned in the novels, we do have several striking connections between stars and hearts of ice and pale swords that are incredibly strong and sharp... I've attempted to lay them out for you. I have failed, and do apologize.

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I don't believe that a crystal sword on close examination would be described as having most of the properties of Valyrian Steel. 

But that's just it, Yandel did not closely examine Dawn. He is interpreting hearsay (and to go a little meta, you are interpreting his interpretation of hearsay).

I don't mind for the purposes of discussion, including Yandel's interpretation of hearsay, but it must be treated as such. No one in the novels describes Dawn as being made of metal, let alone steel. And again, I would argue even Yandel comes just shy of that assertion in the first place. The "properties" Yandel names as being like Valyrian steel are strength and sharpness. Nothing more. And the same could be said of the longswords of the Others: they are incredibly strong and sharp.

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So, after many thousands of words back and forth I'm still saying what I was when I entered this thread:  Dawn already has an origin story that is provided in the story and your version requires that the Daynes and/or the Starks are lying about its origins. 

Lying? No. Far from it. I am proposing that Starks and Daynes are each telling half of a story so old, it is half-forgotten.

I have no doubt that a falling star was seen when Dawn was forged. I just have my doubts that any Dayne would have been capable of forging a sword that is alive with light, let alone noticeably paler, stronger and sharper than castle forged steel ~10,000 years ago.

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Your theory suggests that Dawn isn't just as pale as milkglass but is actually not metal and looks like crystal.  Dawn is never described as looking like crystal and if did look like crystal I think that would be one of the main things said about it.

Find me a link to a meteorite that is as pale as milkglass, yet produces steel and can be made to glow, and I'll start rethinking my theory. Deal?

I assert Dawn, like the blades of Others, is a type of forged ice. Dawn is said to be "alive with light." Crystals are "alive with light" in this series my friend. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=%22alive+with+light%22&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=tmk&scope[]=acok&scope[]=twow&scope[]=twoiaf&scope[]=asos&scope[]=thk&scope[]=trp&scope[]=affc&scope[]=tss&scope[]=tpatq

[White Ravens]

On 3/31/2016 at 1:42 AM, Voice said:

LOL what? How is that a big difference? Unless Westerosi swords are usually shaped like sharpened baseball bats, they all would seem to vanish when seen edge-on. They're swords! LOL

I think what is standing out to Will, is that this blade seems to be made of nonhuman metal/crystal, and yet, is thin as a blade.

Ah, you see? There are precious few blades in our story that are alive with light. We have Beric's ignited blade, Stannis' no-heat blade, the longswords of the Others, and the longsword Dawn. And, that's it.

Which of those blades is Dawn most like?

Well, it isn't on fire when it is alive with light, so it isn't like Beric's. It also isn't accompanied by a glamour-producing shadowbinder from Asshai (not to mention Stannis' blade appeared rather ordinary to Davos and Salladhor at his coming out party).

That leaves us with the longsword of an Other.

 

Ah, back to relying on Maester Yandel who has never seen Dawn...

So you are asserting then, that a steel meteorite fell from the sky and the Daynes forged it into a sword that continues to radiate light?

I don't really hear you accounting for the "paleness" of Dawn, either.

Oh, I was kidding, but apparently that is what you are asserting...

"It may"...?

Hmm. Ok. I suppose I should admire your explanation's brevity rather than lament its lack of support. I'm beginning to understand your aversion to quotes from the novels.

And I thought you just said a moment ago that "Dawn is a steel blade." ... did I imagine that?

Or are you now claiming that steel is a "magical stone"? LOL

Ice, not crystal, but yes, indeed I am. You may be interested to know, or not, that objects such as you describe often freeze in space. Meteors and comets are celestial bits of rock and iron and ice. "Nonhuman metal" and ice. If that isn't a magical form of ice, I don't know what is.

While no meteorites are mentioned in the novels, we do have several striking connections between stars and hearts of ice and pale swords that are incredibly strong and sharp... I've attempted to lay them out for you. I have failed, and do apologize.

But that's just it, Yandel did not closely examine Dawn. He is interpreting hearsay (and to go a little meta, you are interpreting his interpretation of hearsay).

I don't mind for the purposes of discussion, including Yandel's interpretation of hearsay, but it must be treated as such. No one in the novels describes Dawn as being made of metal, let alone steel. And again, I would argue even Yandel comes just shy of that assertion in the first place. The "properties" Yandel names as being like Valyrian steel are strength and sharpness. Nothing more. And the same could be said of the longswords of the Others: they are incredibly strong and sharp.

Lying? No. Far from it. I am proposing that Starks and Daynes are each telling half of a story so old, it is half-forgotten.

I have no doubt that a falling star was seen when Dawn was forged. I just have my doubts that any Dayne would have been capable of forging a sword that is alive with light, let alone noticeably paler, stronger and sharper than castle forged steel ~10,000 years ago.

Find me a link to a meteorite that is as pale as milkglass, yet produces steel and can be made to glow, and I'll start rethinking my theory. Deal?

I assert Dawn, like the blades of Others, is a type of forged ice. Dawn is said to be "alive with light." Crystals are "alive with light" in this series my friend. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=%22alive+with+light%22&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=tmk&scope[]=acok&scope[]=twow&scope[]=twoiaf&scope[]=asos&scope[]=thk&scope[]=trp&scope[]=affc&scope[]=tss&scope[]=tpatq

Well, clearly we both have the same text of GRRM's to interpret but somehow come to different conclusions.  Even if we just stick with reading Yandel's description we tend to come away from reading it with different meanings.  You envision a glowing blade of crystal or ice and I see a pale blade of steel. You think that "as pale as milk glass" means that the blade is made of crystal or ice (LOL!).  I think that " in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades" means that it is made of steel (because Valyrian blades are known to be made of steel).  You also seem convinced that Dawn, arguably the most famous sword currently in use in Westeros, is not made of steel like every other known sword wielded by humans in Westeros but is actually made of crystal or ice but that no one ever mentions that when describing it (LOL!)  I would think that being made of ice or crystal would be the most famous attribute of Dawn and yet that never gets mentioned.  Ever.

House Dayne was established thousands of years ago when a Dayne followed a falling star and found a magical stone.  (A meteorite)  Dawn is said to be forged from the heart of a fallen star. A fallen star is a meteorite. Forged is a word used to describe a metal forming process.  I doubt that swords made of crystal or ice are forged.      

Also, in Ned's memory/dream about his fight with The Sword of the Morning in A Game of Thrones - Eddard X, they come together in a rush of steel, not a rush of steel against ice or crystal.  

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"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

And, as mentioned before, when Jaime recounts how Arthur Dayne defeated the Smiling Night the Smiling Night states that it is Arthur's white sword that he wants without commenting on it being made of ice or crystal. 

From my perspective the origins of the Sword named Dawn are adequately explained in the text.  A falling star is tracked to where it fell to earth by a Dayne who establishes his family seat there and names it Starfall.  The magical stone that he finds is forged into the sword known as Dawn.

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The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

We shall not attempt to speak of all of these. Most ruled over domains so small, or conquests so short-lived, that they are scarce worthy of note. A few of the greatest do warrant mention, however: those whose lines put down deep roots and endured for thousands of years to come.

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall.

 

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A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"Was there one who was best of all?"

 

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

 

I know you would prefer a 13,000 word response complete with dozens of quotes from the novels but I just don't roll that way.  This is your thread and I am offering a differing opinion from that which you are presenting so I should probably be on my way now.  We're both repeating ourselves and neither one of us appears swayed by the others arguments so there you go.  I'll wait for new information on the matter when GRRM feels the need to reveal it.