Ned's prediction about Arya

[Stormourne]

With the whole, Jon and Arya grew up in an environment that was against incest of any kind is a bit of a stretch. For one, cousin marriage is not frowned upon in Westerosi culture. Tywin married his cousin, as did Ned's father. And since we've never gotten insight into the Northern view of brother/sister marriage (not that I'm aware of), people are assuming that because modern society inherently views incest as being bad, since genetics and whatnot, that the same thing applies to the North. Even I'm prone to think that the northers would frown upon that kind of incestuous relationship, between brother and sister.

So, what if Arya and Jon are in fact cousins? Will the northerners themselves still reject their relationship since "they grew up as siblings?" This argument feels very 21st century(ish). In a society where cousin marriage is acceptable, if they know for a fact that Jon and Arya are cousins, would they not accept it? Especially if it is to unite the South and North, and unify the Seven Kingdoms once more? This assumes that Jon will claim the Iron Throne, if he is Targaryen. Setting aside a Dany-Jon conflict, maybe Jon (we know he has no current desire for kingship) will realize that unifying the whole country is what is needed to defend the realm against the White Walkers.

You might ask, why doesn't Jon just marry his aunt then? Why not marry Daenarys and get her army? Well, one answer might be that marrying a 'true' Stark is what will finally make peace between the north and south. Legitimate or not, he is still half-stark, and that might not satisfy the Northerners. If Jon is a bastard, though, that might not satisfy Daenarys. And if Jon is a trueborn Stark/Targaryen hybrid, then he will have a more legitimate claim over the Iron Throne. Which means that if Daenarys raises a hand against him, it will show she is in it for the power, not restoring the Targaryen Dynasty. If she tries to kill her own nephew, who is in front of her in terms of succession, that would not be a good look for her.

Also, Dorne might be angry over the fact that one of their princes died at the hands of the dragons, which might push their allegiance over to Jon, depending if Aegon is truly Aegon. Shit, I forgot about him, lol. If Aegon is Rhaegar's trueborn son, then he would be in front of Jon in terms of succession....

Anyway, oh, what if Jon becomes king of the North, like Robb's Will states - well, its implied really, but... I have hope. Even if Robb didn't know that Bran and Rickon are still alive, he made it obvious that Jon would be next in line to succeed him. So, if Jon does become KIDN, then why would he marry Arya, you may be wondering? I would argue that because Jon is Targaryen, that marrying Arya Stark would mean that Daenarys/Aegon (whoever wins the Iron Throne, if they are Targaryen of course) would be less inclined to invade the North. They are war weary, and the inclination to invade a sovereign kingdom with a king that shares the same blood is low, no?

Also, if you guys are wondering on how Jon and Arya could fall in love, in a way that's realistic, then read my essay here -

 

[Meera of Tarth]

I can't see Arya being queen despite of the fact there is some foreshadowing that could be interpreted this way because the same line can be the contrary too.

 

[Joan Jett]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I can't see Arya being queen despite of the fact there is some foreshadowing that could be interpreted this way because the same line can be the contrary too.

 

But there are other quotes that suggest she could become queen. It's not just this one.

[Fox of House McCloud]

On 20/02/2016 at 10:45 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Why people are doing this at this relationship? They are loving each other as siblings. What do you think that it would happen "Ok cool. DNA say that you are not my brother. Let's forget that are whole lives we were siblings and let's f**k!"

Exactly this. Jon has spent all his time viewing Arya as his sister; his little sister at that. I just really can't imagine some romantic/sexual interest being awakened between older brother/younger sister if they turn out to be cousins instead.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The parallel with Cersei and Maggy is very interesting. Both ask what the future will hold for them, it won't be what they expect. Cersei expects to marry Prince Rhaegar but she 'will wed the King'. Arya doesn't expect to marry at all and she gets 'You will marry a king'. Ned seemed uncannily sure of that, even when taking to Catelyn about being the 'father of Queens'. Nymeria in book 1 is named for the 'warrior queen' of legend. (Was Dorne retconned into a Principality in book 2?).

 

GRRM was not shy about this in book 1. Of course marrying a man who already has an heir is quite politically stupid unless you can do away with it.

 

On 23/02/2016 at 2:23 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I know all about that yet I don't see it. 

Jon's hero was Daeron I, Oberyn also loved and, wanted, to protect his sister. Why is Jon like Jaime and not Oberyn?

Its not just love. Its a direct parallel between the letters in the last 2 books. Cersei sends a letter to Jaime before the walk asking for help. Note the triplication in it for effect. Jaime burns it, he is done with her. Ramsey sends a letter to Jon about wanting his bride back. Note the triplication when Jon thinks about it. Jon takes up arms out of love for his sister. Its like poetry, it rhymes.

' Come at once, she said. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once. '

'He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.'

Not sure I see any parallels with Oberyn and Elia. Elia was killed by The Mountain on Tywin's orders. Cersei sends the Mountain for Arya. But there isn't a Jon element there and the outcomes are much different.

[Nissa]

IMO I think what you quoted from Ned is not prophecy but it is instead character building. I think it's showing Ned as a father figure showing Arya what's expected of her and showing Arya's character as not wanting to accept that lifestyle. I agree with some of the previous posts about her having the 'wolf-blood' and being wild. I also disagree with whoever had made the comment about the killing only being a small part of her character. I think it is a huge part of her character and will have an affect on her arc that cannot be undone. I don't see her as marrying anyone or ending a happy queen or even a Lady that she was "expected" to be. It is totally against her personality. I think the trauma she has faced and the path she has chosen is much darker and is disengaged with that kind of a plot line. 

 

But that's just me

[Joan Jett]

38 minutes ago, Nissa said:

IMO I think what you quoted from Ned is not prophecy but it is instead character building. I think it's showing Ned as a father figure showing Arya what's expected of her and showing Arya's character as not wanting to accept that lifestyle. I agree with some of the previous posts about her having the 'wolf-blood' and being wild. I also disagree with whoever had made the comment about the killing only being a small part of her character. I think it is a huge part of her character and will have an affect on her arc that cannot be undone. I don't see her as marrying anyone or ending a happy queen or even a Lady that she was "expected" to be. It is totally against her personality. I think the trauma she has faced and the path she has chosen is much darker and is disengaged with that kind of a plot line. 

 

But that's just me

1. That's the surface perception that GRRM wants you to have. A father doting on his daughter. Foreshadowing is hidden in plain sight here.

2. Since when is it "expected" of every highborn girl to marry a king and give birth to princes? If he had said "lord" instead of "king" I would agree with you. 

[Nissa]

2 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

1. That's the surface perception that GRRM wants you to have. A father doting on his daughter. Foreshadowing is hidden in plain sight here.

2. Since when is it "expected" of every highborn girl to marry a king and give birth to princes? If he had said "lord" instead of "king" I would agree with you. 

I know I'm totally out of the norm in the fan universe but I don't take everything that's written as literal. I definitely see where you're going with it. I just don't agree that it's where the story is going. Don't get me wrong Arya is one of my favorite characters so it would be great it she ends up on top at the end. I could argue the same with my point of view that he wants you to take it literally but really it's just his character's (IE in this instance Ned) pros. I think that a lot about many of the theories that are out there though so don't take my word for it. 

[Joan Jett]

24 minutes ago, Nissa said:

I know I'm totally out of the norm in the fan universe but I don't take everything that's written as literal. I definitely see where you're going with it. I just don't agree that it's where the story is going. Don't get me wrong Arya is one of my favorite characters so it would be great it she ends up on top at the end. I could argue the same with my point of view that he wants you to take it literally but really it's just his character's (IE in this instance Ned) pros. I think that a lot about many of the theories that are out there though so don't take my word for it. 

You still haven't addressed that Ned says "King" even though it makes absolutely no sense in the context of the story. Ned's bff was King and married. The crown prince who comes after him was already betrothed to Ned's other daughter. How could Arya possibly marry a King in that scenario? The answer is, she couldn't. Ned's dialogue was foreshadowing to a future time. 

Anyway, this isn't about liking Arya. It's about the multiple hints in the books that indicate she will be Queen.

3 hours ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

Exactly this. Jon has spent all his time viewing Arya as his sister; his little sister at that. I just really can't imagine some romantic/sexual interest being awakened between older brother/younger sister if they turn out to be cousins instead.

The relationship between Jon and Arya is foreshadowed to change in the books. Jon doubts their sibling relationship in ASOS:

Quote

"If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard... -Jon III

Arya thinks that Jon will call her something other than "little sister" in the future:

Quote

She wondered if he would still call her "little sister." I'm not so little anymore. He'd have to call me something else.-Arya VIII

They even wonder if Jon would know Arya, both of them at around the same time in ADWD:

Quote

Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman's Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him. Even Jon would never know Blind Beth, I bet. That made her sad.

- The Blind Girl

It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her?  

- Jon XI

This is actually similar to Jaime's thoughts of Cersei. Kind of. He thinks that Cersei is "the Stranger" instead of The Maid. A stranger is someone you don't know. 

[norwaywolf123]

On 6.2.2016 at 6:13 AM, purple-eyes said:

I have brought up this somewhere but I think it is worthy for one thread.

So Ned told Arya she would marry a king.

Quote:

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Her sons will be knights, princes, lords and even high Septon. But not king.

No matter how many sons a king has, one of them should become king and this is the most important thing for king and queen.

Usually if you say somebody marry a king, you will naturally say, you will give him a son and this son will be king one day and rule the kingdom, etc.

Not everything is litteral.

Arya's sons will not be knights nor princes nor lrods nor a highsepton and defintly not a king.

On 6.2.2016 at 6:13 AM, purple-eyes said:

So this means, Arya will not bear a heir for this king. This king has already an heir.

So I think, Jon marries Dany for political reason and Arya for his personal desire, then Dany dies at childbirth (and reunite with Drogo) and gives Jon an heir.

And this baby will become king someday. Arya can have a lot of sons, but they will be knights, princes, lords, high septon, whatever, but not king.

Or after Dany dies, Jon marries a second wife who is Arya, this is also possible. But I do not think GRRM will do this. If he makes them marry, it has to be a polygamy marriage to increase the drama. And I think this is the "third treason for love". Jon will betray Dany for his love in Arya, because he will introduce a second wife into their marriage. Dany, in this cases as Visenya, would not be very happy I guess, but she loves Jon and also needs his help to save the world, so she accepts it.

I see Dany as Aegon the Conquror. Aurane Waters is more likely to be bastard king than Jon Snow. Aurane has valyrian looks and a personality more fitted to Dany and Daemon the Rogue Prince.

On 6.2.2016 at 6:13 AM, purple-eyes said:

HBO show changed this to "you will marry a high lord". I think this is because HBO show does not want to do polygamy.

It maybe OK to happen in the book, but for the TV show, this is just not that......proper.

However, it is more important for the story plot that Jon marries Dany, not Arya. So Arya has to be removed from this polygamy marriage.

I guess Arya would marry Gendry who is a combination of Gendry and Edric in the show, the future new lord of Storm's end.

 

All daughters or most daughters of lords marry the sons of other lords...... Im not sure now.

[Fox of House McCloud]

55 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

The relationship between Jon and Arya is foreshadowed to change in the books. Jon doubts their sibling relationship in ASOS:

Arya thinks that Jon will call her something other than "little sister" in the future:

They even wonder if Jon would know Arya, both of them at around the same time in ADWD.

I guess I can see how you get a romantic relationship out of that, but to me, it seems more like GRRM is underlining just how close they were, rather than how close they will become.

I also think it's very unlikely Jon will ever be King - he has neither the desire, nor the claims (assuming R+L=J ).

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Anothrer thing to note, how GRRM wrote the Seven wedding vows. He portrays marriage as absolute oneness. A completion. That is the ideal. One heart. One soul. One flesh. Are there two characters more in sync than Jon and Arya? They echo thoughts across the continent, sometimes word for word. It is like they are two halves of the same whole. 

[Joan Jett]

19 minutes ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

I guess I can see how you get a romantic relationship out of that, but to me, it seems more like GRRM is underlining just how close they were, rather than how close they will become.

I also think it's very unlikely Jon will ever be King - he has neither the desire, nor the claims (assuming R+L=J ).

You said that they have a sibling relationship that you can't see changing. In the quotes I showed you, the "sibling" part of their bond was questioned by the characters and the relationship was foreshadowed to evolve. There will come a time when Jon will no longer call her "little sister". I don't get "romance" from that, but it is a questionable change. Why would GRRM do that to their perfect sibling relationship? And what would their relationship change into? That's where the romance comes in. The way they view each other will change while the strong feelings remain. 

Jon's preferences in women suggest that Arya is his type. She has numerous similarities to Ygritte and she even has a parallel to Val. Jon even compares Ygritte to Arya.  Hell, Ygritte even asks "Would you bed your sister?" and Jon ignores the question.

Arya's crush, Gendry, is very similar to Jon Snow. Gendry reminds her of Jon twice. 

So potentially we could have Jon and Arya, aware that they aren't siblings, yet still harboring great feelings of love for eachother. And they both just happen to fit each other's standards. Romance could definitely sprout there. 

[Fox of House McCloud]

17 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

You said that they have a sibling relationship that you can't see changing. In the quotes I showed you, the "sibling" part of their bond was questioned by the characters and the relationship was foreshadowed to evolve. There will come a time when Jon will no longer call her "little sister". I don't get "romance" from that, but it is a questionable change. Why would GRRM do that to their perfect sibling relationship? And what would their relationship change into? That's where the romance comes in. The way they view each other will change while the strong feelings remain. 

Jon's preferences in women suggest that Arya is his type. She has numerous similarities to Ygritte and she even has a parallel to Val. Jon even compares Ygritte to Arya.  Hell, Ygritte even asks "Would you bed your sister?" and Jon ignores the question.

Arya's crush, Gendry, is very similar to Jon Snow. Gendry reminds her of Jon twice. 

So potentially we could have Jon and Arya, aware that they aren't siblings, yet still harboring great feelings of love for eachother. And they both just happen to fit each other's standards. Romance could definitely sprout there. 

Hmm, seems like I might have forgotten a few things. I still feel that this marriage is unlikely, but I'm going to go back and reread a bit. Would you happen to have the chapters with those Jon/Gendry quotes?

[Joan Jett]

23 minutes ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

Hmm, seems like I might have forgotten a few things. I still feel that this marriage is unlikely, but I'm going to go back and reread a bit. Would you happen to have the chapters with those Jon/Gendry quotes?

In Arya I of ASOS they both tell Hotpie "NO!" at the same time. Then later with the Brotherhood they finish a sentence together about magic. Jon and Arya used to say things at the same time and finish sentences together.

Arya's connections between Gendry and her brother seem a lot more innocent than Jon's Ygritte comparisons though. He thinks about under her clothes and wonders if she's "as skinny as Arya". Other times he just thinks she's stubborn like Arya or has messy hair like hers.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

18 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

snip

I know all that and I still don't see it.

19 hours ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

Exactly this. Jon has spent all his time viewing Arya as his sister; his little sister at that. I just really can't imagine some romantic/sexual interest being awakened between older brother/younger sister if they turn out to be cousins instead.

Agree.

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 06 febbraio 2016 at 6:13 AM, purple-eyes said:

I have brought up this somewhere but I think it is worthy for one thread.

So Ned told Arya she would marry a king.

Quote:

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Her sons will be knights, princes, lords and even high Septon. But not king.

No matter how many sons a king has, one of them should become king and this is the most important thing for king and queen.

Usually if you say somebody marry a king, you will naturally say, you will give him a son and this son will be king one day and rule the kingdom, etc.

So this means, Arya will not bear a heir for this king. This king has already an heir.

So I think, Jon marries Dany for political reason and Arya for his personal desire, then Dany dies at childbirth (and reunite with Drogo) and gives Jon an heir.

And this baby will become king someday. Arya can have a lot of sons, but they will be knights, princes, lords, high septon, whatever, but not king.

Or after Dany dies, Jon marries a second wife who is Arya, this is also possible. But I do not think GRRM will do this. If he makes them marry, it has to be a polygamy marriage to increase the drama. And I think this is the "third treason for love". Jon will betray Dany for his love in Arya, because he will introduce a second wife into their marriage. Dany, in this cases as Visenya, would not be very happy I guess, but she loves Jon and also needs his help to save the world, so she accepts it.

 

HBO show changed this to "you will marry a high lord". I think this is because HBO show does not want to do polygamy.

It maybe OK to happen in the book, but for the TV show, this is just not that......proper.

However, it is more important for the story plot that Jon marries Dany, not Arya. So Arya has to be removed from this polygamy marriage.

I guess Arya would marry Gendry who is a combination of Gendry and Edric in the show, the future new lord of Storm's end.

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uhm I disagree, I think you read way too much in it:

1) We don't know if his words were ever meant to be a prediction or just as the wishful thinking of a father;

2) in any case, Ned was likely talking of what will be when Arya marries a king and they have kids, which means while the husband King is still alive (so of course any of the childs is described as King; also, when you're waiting and you are a prince you are usually a knight of some sort) 

3) we usually think of 'King' as king of Westeros, but you can be 'king' in other ways (like king of the north or whatever title, even honorific and granted only to a person and not to his dynasty) so it's unfrequent but not 100% impossible that you are married to a king and your childs are not automatically meant to be kings or are lords of something and then maybe they will or will not get other titles; 

3) Ned's words come from the first book, so I suppose they could do with GRRM fist idea (the 1991 love triangle Tyrion-Jon-Arya and possibly Jon = King as his endgame); It seems now that the love triangle has been abandoned (at least, it seems Arya won't be part of it… some people think of Sansa or Daenerys as possible replacement, I'm inclinded to think it has been abandoned), so we don't know whether he also abandoned the Jon-Arya love story or not (Jon thinks a lot of Arya, hard to say what his feeling are): in this last case, if the Jon+Arya love story isn't going to happen, Ned's words are now just a lose end, they are something that would have been foreshadowing in the original plan and if GRRM had sticked to the original idea, but are now just the words of a father to his girl (you can't imagine Arya marrying any other possible King than Jon)

4) IF the Jon+Arya love story is still in the game and IF Ned's words were meant as foreshadowing and IF Jon marries Daenerys and IF Daenerys die giving childbirth and IF he then marries Arya, you may be right. But it's a lot of "IFs" here.

[a black swan]

On 5/26/2016 at 0:58 AM, Elisabetta Duò said:

4) IF the Jon+Arya love story is still in the game and IF Ned's words were meant as foreshadowing and IF Jon marries Daenerys and IF Daenerys die giving childbirth and IF he then marries Arya, you may be right. But it's a lot of "IFs" here.

Why is marrying Dany a must factor in any Jon/Arya end game? Because it really isn't. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

Why is marrying Dany a must factor in any Jon/Arya end game? Because it really isn't. 

It was a while ago so I don't remember, but I think the OP was talking about Arya as Jon's second wife or something like that.,

Anyway, personally, i'm not even sure she will survive (and she's in my top5 characters), because of the famous Jon - Arya AGOT line

"You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers." 

=> you'll be killing people (sewing as using your Needle) througout winter. When summer comes, they will find your frozen body (not 'you', but 'your body' = either a dead corpse or she warged into Nymeria forever) with Needle still in your hand.

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

It was a while ago so I don't remember, but I think the OP was talking about Arya as Jon's second wife or something like that.,

Anyway, personally, i'm not even sure she will survive (and she's in my top5 characters), because of the famous Jon - Arya AGOT line

"You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers." 

=> you'll be killing people (sewing as using your Needle) througout winter. When summer comes, they will find your frozen body (not 'you', but 'your body' = either a dead corpse or she warged into Nymeria forever) with Needle still in your hand.

About that quote. What are your thoughts of the beginning of the quote?

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance."