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GRRM didn't seem to think Joffrey was a psychopath, just a classic bully


Kaguya

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A quote from him

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Yeah. I think Joffrey is a classic 13-year-old bully. Do you know many 13-year-old kids you’d like to give absolute power to? There’s a cruelty in children, especially children of a certain age, that you see in junior high and middle school. We don’t want 13-year-old bullies to be put to death. We probably do when we’re their 13-year-old victims, but they grow up and most of them grow out of it, and sometimes people do regret their actions. But Joffrey will never get that chance, so we don’t know what he would have become. Probably nothing good, but still…

http://www.ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed

Thoughts??

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There is a certain truth to that. Joff's main issue with Sansa, for example, was that she, his future wife, a girl he wanted to impress, witnessed how her younger sister gave him a beating and saw him beg and cry.

That is nothing a boy who grows up in patriarchal monarchic environment who is supposed to be a great manly leader can easily forget. Especially when his father and uncle laugh/scold him for that, too. Robert and Renly ensured that Joff would continue to hate both Sansa and Arya with their reactions when they heard the full story. And Cersei, too, of course.

In addition, Joff is surrounded by lickspittles and cruel morons like the Hound (who actually suggested to him to kill the direwolves) who feed him ideas like a 'true king has to act boldly' (Robert and/or Cersei), that cutting out tongues (Cersei) and other severe judgments like executions and fights to the death are great ideas.

And we should keep in mind that such sentences are common in the society they live in. A king in Westeros is actually expected to not allow criminals to get away with easy punishments.

There are hints that Joff might have had more severe issues with the whole cat thing, but even that isn't necessarily a sign that he'll continue to do that stuff. Joff was also a coward at heart as he proves on many occasions. He is exactly in the age in which boys tend to do very cruel things to their peers, and unlike the usual bully Joffrey actually can get away with all that.

Cersei and Robert clearly failed to raise him properly - he never would have become a good king, but he certainly had the chance to become a better person than he was in ASoS.

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There is some truth in that, but not too much. Many of Joff's actions cross the line between teenage bully and a psychopath. Do you see "normal" bullies cutting a cat? Or being fond of ordering people to fight to the death (as Sansa notes Joffrey is)? Or shooting at the people asking for food? All of these pretty clearly show what kind of person Joffrey is.

On the other hand, has he ever shown any traits associated with non-psychopaths? Has he ever shown compassion, emapthy or at least sympathy for the plight of others? Has he ever done something kind or altruistic? AFAIK, no, and to top it off, he even seems to have trouble understanding "nice" behaviour, much less engaging in it.

Had GRRM wanted to write Joffrey as a seemingly ordinary psychopath, but actually much more complex character underneath - he had three books to do so. He didn't, and from the text he wrote, it's pretty clear that, well, behaviour Joffrey engages in - is psychopathic. Having crazy mother and inattentive father, coupled with one's innate cruelty, can do that to a child.

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I would agree with GRRM. Joffrey seemed really psychopathic, but he was clearly abused by his parents and probably many more people around him.

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"Joffrey . . . I remember once, this kitchen cat . . . the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he'd killed him." The king took off his crown and placed it on the table. "Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now." (aSOS, Davos VI)

He didn't kill the cat out of malice, he was curious to see the inside, which seems really cruel, but kids can be like that sometimes. That is why education is so important.

Lord Varys mentioned Renly, Robert, and Cersei's behavior towards him in Trident. It is obvious that these were not one off incidents. The above mentioned quote is Stannis to Davos about Tyrion having killed Joffrey. Stannis, Joff's uncle, has also no compassion towards the poor kid. We saw how troubled he was during the hand tourney over the dinner too. Tyrion, one of the few people who took the trouble to at least explain things to him, was absolutely brutal to him. And things became much more manageable under Tywin, another person who would take time and educate (well in his own screwed up way). And then there is Jaime, he doesn't give it a moment of thought when he hears Joff is murdered. 

These are all very close family members, abuse and neglect on this level has serious effects.

 

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23 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

stuff

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, Joff isn't a nice guy, but he is also hitting puberty very hard during the series. Boys are testing what they can during this age, and for the Crown Prince and the King there is very little he cannot do.

Joff's treatment of the cat wasn't necessarily much different from the way the average butcher of this day and age deals with cattle or chickens. He may have had a different reason, but that was apparently more curiosity and not necessarily cruelty. Apparently nobody had troubled him to tell him that you don't cut cats open for such a reason.

Robert and, especially, Tyrion just seemed to beat and kick him. There was no attempt there to actually educate him.

One really has to try to oneself into the mind of medieval prince with parents and family like Robert/Cersei and Stannis, Renly, Jaime, Tyrion, and Tywin. You won't be learning empathy or even decent behavior from any of them, especially not towards the lower classes and/or animals.

Joff can be a nice person but he really emulates Cersei there - he plays nice, at home he says what he really thinks which essentially should be the same type of things Cersei says at home when she can speak her mind - that everybody except them are rabble and fools, and deserve to be treated like shit because, you know, they are shit.

This is reinforced by the fact that the royals are exclusively surrounded by lickspittles and yes-sayers, praising every stupid notion Joff could possibly come up with. I mean, how sick must you be to believe that a man like Sandor Clegane can help raise your son?!

And then there is the fact that Joff really isn't very bright. He hasn't yet understood that it is smart not to show your true feelings to the world. Tyrion is actually criticizing Joff for his stupidity most of the time (when the riots broke out, shooting on the starving smallfolk, etc.). He doesn't show all that much compassion for himself.

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Nah he's a psychopath. Don't try to excuse his behavior by saying he was "abused" by his parents, come one that is just ridiculous. Yeah Robert beat him up once, but that's because he cut open a cat, the kid obviously has issues, and don't even try to say it was curiosity, he was old enough to know it would bring the anima a painful death.

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17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Joff's treatment of the cat wasn't necessarily much different from the way the average butcher of this day and age deals with cattle or chickens. He may have had a different reason, but that was apparently more curiosity and not necessarily cruelty. Apparently nobody had troubled him to tell him that you don't cut cats open for such a reason.

I didn't know butchers cut open chickens to see if there are kittens inside. I never cut up a cat, but I swear I don't remember who taught me not to do that. Who taught you?

Yes, yes, I know that isn't how you meant any of that~but it made me laugh because it struck me as so ludicrous. I just had to rib you a little. Forgive me?

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

snip

You can hardly justify Joffrey's behaviour with the fact that he is the crown prince in puberty. How many other young men/women are in similar position (in/soon to be in puberty and son of king/Lord Paramount): Robb, Jon Snow, Loras, Quentyn, Tommen, Myrcella, Egg etc. And how many of them show behaviour comparable to Joffrey's: none.

What Joffrey does is outside of realm of usual bullying (and, yes, I'm fully aware how cruel kids casn be at that age and turn out competely normal later in life). Normal bully will mock you and hit you; while Joffrey will have you killed and take sadistic pleasure from your pain. That's not usual or ordinary, that's a sign of a mentally disturbed individual.

And again I can ask: what has Joffrey ever done in order for us to suspect he's not a psycho, but simply a bully with inordinate amount of power. After all, all of these school bullies have people they genuinely respect and behave accordingly, they have family and friends they love and show their nice side to, they have people for whom they're willing or even eager to do favours out of love/respect etc. Meanwhile, Joffrey has none of it. He basically treats everyone like cattle and doesn't show one ounce of kindness or friendship towards anyone. I agree with you that he is capable of playing nice - but he's incapable of genuinely being nice.

 

And while being a pampared prince and having Robert and Cersei as parents doesn't help Joffrey's bahaviour (rather, I think it's one of the main causes of it), this doesn't take away from the fact that Joffrey seems to be a sadistic psychopath, not a simple bully.

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this reminded me a question I always wanted to ask,

Olenna heard that Joff was cruel, then in order to avoid margarey marrying him, she simply murdered him.

Sure, Joff is cruel and bad and whatever, but does this justify a murdering, simply because her granddaughter was going to marry him (actually the marriage was proposed by Tyrell themselves?)

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24 minutes ago, Grissom said:

I'm seriously starting to think that you people are messed up in the head, how can you excuse such behavior?

It's not "excusing" any behavior to say Joff isn't a psycho.  IN fact, I'd argue the opposite - that if someone acts a certain way due to mental illness (psychopathy) then they may actually be less responsible for what they do than if they are psychologically normal but do the same thing.  Joffery is 100% responsible for the cruel things he does.  But we should blame HIM, not a mental illness.  

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2 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

You can hardly justify Joffrey's behaviour with the fact that he is the crown prince in puberty. How many other young men/women are in similar position (in/soon to be in puberty and son of king/Lord Paramount): Robb, Jon Snow, Loras, Quentyn, Tommen, Myrcella, Egg etc. And how many of them show behaviour comparable to Joffrey's: none.

What Joffrey does is outside of realm of usual bullying (and, yes, I'm fully aware how cruel kids casn be at that age and turn out competely normal later in life). Normal bully will mock you and hit you; while Joffrey will have you killed and take sadistic pleasure from your pain. That's not usual or ordinary, that's a sign of a mentally disturbed individual.

And again I can ask: what has Joffrey ever done in order for us to suspect he's not a psycho, but simply a bully with inordinate amount of power. After all, all of these school bullies have people they genuinely respect and behave accordingly, they have family and friends they love and show their nice side to, they have people for whom they're willing or even eager to do favours out of love/respect etc. Meanwhile, Joffrey has none of it. He basically treats everyone like cattle and doesn't show one ounce of kindness or friendship towards anyone. I agree with you that he is capable of playing nice - but he's incapable of genuinely being nice.

And while being a pampared prince and having Robert and Cersei as parents doesn't help Joffrey's bahaviour (rather, I think it's one of the main causes of it), this doesn't take away from the fact that Joffrey seems to be a sadistic psychopath, not a simple bully.

The other boys aren't Crown Princes and Kings as twelve/thirteen-year-olds. And Robb does change considerably after he becomes king, refusing to listen to any counsel aside from that he wants to listen to do.

Not to mention that the other boys you cite all had attentive and caring parents as far as we know and/or where never groomed to rule/lead anyway. Tommen and Myrcella are younger children and would have been treated much differently than Joff. Myrcella was a girl and thus raised to passive and meek, and Tommen was pretty much ignored his entire life.

In addition, we have to keep in mind that Joff's violent/cruel tendencies nearly always come forth when he is drunk. Back when he cuts Mycah he is drunk, during his wedding he is even more drunk. Even nice people can be mean and cruel when they are drunk.

And nobody is saying Joff was a nice guy. He is a little shit, really, but that doesn't mean he has severe mental issues. 

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5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

this reminded me a question I always wanted to ask,

Olenna heard that Joff was cruel, then in order to avoid margarey marrying him, she simply murdered him.

Sure, Joff is cruel and bad and whatever, but does this justify a murdering, simply because her granddaughter was going to marry him (actually the marriage was proposed by Tyrell themselves?)

"Simply because" she was going to marry him?  Yikes.  

In this society, women who are married to cruel assholes are in for years of torture and torment, with no hope for escape.  The Joffery marriage would have led to Margaery's being abused once Joffery tired of her (see how quickly he turned on Sansa once she saw him being "weak") and also possibly Loras dying (while trying to defend her).  

I think it was wrong morally to have Joffery murdered, but I do feel that Olenna had little recourse if she wanted to avoid her family being murdered and/or abused.   The only options were to make sure Joffery died young or to break off the marraige.  Unfortunately (again, because patriarchy) the only one who could do the latter was Mace and apparently he didn't give a crap about his daughter's well being as long as she produced heirs to the IT.

I suppose that Olenna could have smuggled Margaery away somewhere secretly.  The probably would have been the most moral action.  But given her constraints I fully understand what she did, even if I find it to be morally reprehensible.  

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This is pretty much true. The character we are introduced to was just a spoilt little shit, no different to many other children.

But then the 12 year old Joffrey had his father die, his prospective father-in-law call him a bastard (which would mean the death of him, his siblings and his mother), try to imprison him, told that his uncle is really his father and that his other two uncles were raising armies to kill him. I think that combination of events would drive most of us over the edge, especially a 12 year old.

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, Joff isn't a nice guy, but he is also hitting puberty very hard during the series. Boys are testing what they can during this age, and for the Crown Prince and the King there is very little he cannot do.

Joff's treatment of the cat wasn't necessarily much different from the way the average butcher of this day and age deals with cattle or chickens. He may have had a different reason, but that was apparently more curiosity and not necessarily cruelty. Apparently nobody had troubled him to tell him that you don't cut cats open for such a reason.

Robert and, especially, Tyrion just seemed to beat and kick him. There was no attempt there to actually educate him.

One really has to try to oneself into the mind of medieval prince with parents and family like Robert/Cersei and Stannis, Renly, Jaime, Tyrion, and Tywin. You won't be learning empathy or even decent behavior from any of them, especially not towards the lower classes and/or animals.

Joff can be a nice person but he really emulates Cersei there - he plays nice, at home he says what he really thinks which essentially should be the same type of things Cersei says at home when she can speak her mind - that everybody except them are rabble and fools, and deserve to be treated like shit because, you know, they are shit.

This is reinforced by the fact that the royals are exclusively surrounded by lickspittles and yes-sayers, praising every stupid notion Joff could possibly come up with. I mean, how sick must you be to believe that a man like Sandor Clegane can help raise your son?!

And then there is the fact that Joff really isn't very bright. He hasn't yet understood that it is smart not to show your true feelings to the world. Tyrion is actually criticizing Joff for his stupidity most of the time (when the riots broke out, shooting on the starving smallfolk, etc.). He doesn't show all that much compassion for himself.

You don't need anyone to tell you that cutting open a live cat is a bad thing, and if you did, you'd figure it out from the second your knife pierced the cat's skin, and if you weren't a cruel, sadistic freak, you would stop.  End of story. "Curiousity would have been cutting open a dead cat.  

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Well, I think, it might be an interesting question whether Joffrey was just a bully or a psychopath, but I think the question is really academic. Because, whatever he was, his behavior was not acceptable.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

You don't need anyone to tell you that cutting open a live cat is a bad thing, and if you did, you'd figure it out from the second your knife pierced the cat's skin, and if you weren't a cruel, sadistic freak, you would stop.  End of story. "Curiousity would have been cutting open a dead cat.  

Joffrey lives in a world were men boast about the people they killed and the hunts they go on were they also kill animals. These are celebrated past times, his father was constantly hunting and killing animals.

Considering that Robert knocked Joffrey's baby teeth out for this he could only have been around 5/6 when this happened,  I would not really expect him to know why his father killing animals is OK and him killing animals is Wrong. 

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4 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

"Simply because" she was going to marry him?  Yikes.  

In this society, women who are married to cruel assholes are in for years of torture and torment, with no hope for escape.  The Joffery marriage would have led to Margaery's being abused once Joffery tired of her (see how quickly he turned on Sansa once she saw him being "weak") and also possibly Loras dying (while trying to defend her).  

I think it was wrong morally to have Joffery murdered, but I do feel that Olenna had little recourse if she wanted to avoid her family being murdered and/or abused.   The only options were to make sure Joffery died young or to break off the marraige.  Unfortunately (again, because patriarchy) the only one who could do the latter was Mace and apparently he didn't give a crap about his daughter's well being as long as she produced heirs to the IT.

I suppose that Olenna could have smuggled Margaery away somewhere secretly.  The probably would have been the most moral action.  But given her constraints I fully understand what she did, even if I find it to be morally reprehensible.  

 

Sure, you are a reader so you know how Joff is really cruel and you may feel he deserves to be murdered, etc.

But my point is that, Olenna only heard from somebody about Joff is dangerous and cruel (which may be true or may not be true since it is a second handed talking), in stead of trying to dissolve the marriage or smuggle out Margarey or maybe declare Margarey is sick or whatever which makes her unfit to marry a king, she simply decided to murder him. This does sound cruel too.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Joffrey lives in a world were men boast about the people they killed and the hunts they go on were they also kill animals. These are celebrated past times, his father was constantly hunting and killing animals.

Considering that Robert knocked Joffrey's baby teeth out for this he could only have been around 5/6 when this happened,  I would not really expect him to know why his father killing animals is OK and him killing animals is Wrong. 

People hunt to this day.  Do you think their children cut open the family pets because they don't understand the difference between hunting and killing a pet?  Answer: no.  

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

People hunt to this day.  Do you think their children cut open the family pets because they don't understand the difference between hunting and killing a pet?  Answer: no.  

The Cat was not a family pet. It was a stray animal.

And shit, I imagine that those kind parents have a greater parental responsibility towards their children than Robert and Cersei did. This was a case of shitty parenting.

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