GRRM didn't seem to think Joffrey was a psychopath, just a classic bully

[Scott Richman]

Hmm , called for a persons head even though he knew there was already an arrangement for another form of punishment. Sure not a psychopath

[thelittledragonthatcould]

25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Given that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were exposed to the same environment, upbringing, and social mores, etc., how do you then go about explaining the glaring differences in their eventual personalities?

Come on, that is a little silly. People have different personalities regardless of if they are brought up in the exact same manner. 

But were they really brought up that similar?

Joffrey was heir of the Kingdom, he was given a huge monstrous individual (Hound) to do his bidding and allowed to dehumaize him and call him Dog. He will have had flatters from an early age, given that he is both the future King and has the classical Lannister good looks while also being big and tall for his age. His ego would have been incredibly high,  knowing that he is the second most powerful person alive (and one day would be the most) with little grounding or teaching about responsibility from either parent

Myrcella is younger, apparently sweet (I guess that she is but we have no idea about her own coping mechanisms) and a woman. She would have been brought up knowing she will never be the ruler, but some man's wife. Still hugely privileged but would have known her place. And then there is the fact that she clearly is emotionally stronger than Joffrey, as noted by Aerys.

"Myrcella never shed a tear, though it was she who was leaving hearth and home to seal an alliance with her maidenhood. The truth was, the princess was braver than her brother, and brighter and more confident as well. Her wits were quicker, her courtesies more polished. Nothing ever daunted her, not even Joffrey. The women are the strong ones, truly. He was thinking not only of Myrcella, but of her mother and his own, of the Queen of Thorns".

Tommen, as the youngest sibling living in his brother's shadow would also be more grounded and less spoilt given that for most of his young life he was the 'spare'.

10 minutes ago, Scott Richman said:

Hmm , called for a persons head even though he knew there was already an arrangement for another form of punishment. Sure not a psychopath

Did he know there was already an arrangement? Varys negotiated the deal with his mother, not Joffrey.

Joffrey as the older brother, and a spoilt little shit, would have constantly reminded his siblings who was top dog. He would have bullied them and made them know their place which would have meant that they grew up a little less spoilt than their awful older brother.

[FuzzyJAM]

There are some very strong classic signs of psychopathy in Joffrey and zero evidence to the contrary, but that's not proof.  There could be a side we never see.  

What's definitely not the case is that he's just your average bully.  That's ludicrous and I have no idea how George could claim it.  A good deal of 13 year olds bully, but I doubt a good deal would be happy to cause lots of deaths and so on.  If George sees that as a normal attitude for a child to have, he has a far worse idea of humanity than I do.  Now, if George really meant "A lot of people with Joffrey's upbringing and the tragic events he suffers could turn out like him.  Say, the sort of person who only turns out to be a bully in our world could turn into the monster that is Joffrey in his" - yeah, that's no doubt true.  But that's not the same thing as saying there are lots of Joffreys running around in our own society at all.  

[ravenous reader]

29 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Come on, that is a little silly. People have different personalities regardless of if they are brought up in the exact same manner. 

But were they really brought up that similar?

I was just responding to the question of whether a 'villain' is 'born or made,'  and how Gleeson, in interpreting his character, preferred to highlight the 'made,' for obvious reasons. Let's agree that it's probably closer to 50:50.

Some seem to be implying, however, that there's no innate 'set-point' whatsoever to human personality...that the more 'free reign' a person is given, the more they're spoiled, doted on, and indulged, the more likely they are to be psychopaths. If these conditions were sufficent, there would probably be more of them around. One might also argue the converse, that Cersei's neglect of the younger siblings was a form of abuse, which was similarly bound to produce severe personality aberrations in them-- however, that didn't turn out to be the case.

The genetic component is also important in determining/modifying the outcome. Sullen seemed to be hinting at this with the choice of the word 'natural,' implying some innate disposition:

41 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Different people have different personalities in general, Joffrey was naturally mean-spirited, Tommen naturally nice

My understanding of Littlefinger, for example, goes further than that he was a country-bumpkin, down on his luck, in love with a girl, who didn't want him, and he consequently strove to overcome his humble beginnings, 'American-dream'-style. In my opinion, his pathology is more essential, and goes deeper than that.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Sullen said:

There's absolutely no proof that Joffrey was sexually assaulting Tommen.

Tommen never finishes what he was going to say, people tend to want to believe the worst of characters they dislike, and so they fill the gap with sexual molestation and the like. I highly doubt George would have called a boy who sexually assaulted his little brother from an early age "Just a classic bully". If anything, Tommen was simply going to allude to Joffrey regularly bullying him.

Come on.

"The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing...go away inside."

"I...I used to go away inside sometimes, when Joffy..."

Plenty of people, young children, get bullied every day, but you only need to go away inside when something too unbearable to endure is happening to you.

 

[Kaguya]

1 hour ago, Scott Richman said:

Hmm , called for a persons head even though he knew there was already an arrangement for another form of punishment. Sure not a psychopath

Littlefinger egged him on to do that.

[Kaguya]

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Come on.

"The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing...go away inside."

"I...I used to go away inside sometimes, when Joffy..."

Plenty of people, young children, get bullied every day, but you only need to go away inside when something too unbearable to endure is happening to you.

 

Joffrey was what, 13 when he died? It makes no sense he would lust after his brother sexually when he barely had a sex drive when he died.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

40 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Come on.

"The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing...go away inside."

"I...I used to go away inside sometimes, when Joffy..."

Plenty of people, young children, get bullied every day, but you only need to go away inside when something too unbearable to endure is happening to you.

 

Considering the statement from the author that kickstarted this thread this seems like an unlikely conclusion (though I can see why many think it).

[The Anti-Targ]

I think Joff is the kind of kid that likes pulling wings of flies, which is a different sort of psychological situation than just being a bully. And he's in a position where no one is going to tell him that pulling wings off flies is cruel or evidence of psychopathic tendencies. So he would keep on indulging those pleasures and eventually would end up being more than just a bully king.

I guess the TV show turned him into a full blown psycho-sadist. But he was basically in his late teens in the show, which means he's well past the tween bully phase.

[FuzzyJAM]

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Come on.

"The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing...go away inside."

"I...I used to go away inside sometimes, when Joffy..."

Plenty of people, young children, get bullied every day, but you only need to go away inside when something too unbearable to endure is happening to you.

 

I can assure you that there are lots of horrible things a big brother can do to a little brother that have nothing whatsoever to do with sex.  This is especially true for a sensitive soul like Tommen.  

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, FuzzyJAM said:

I can assure you that there are lots of horrible things a big brother can do to a little brother that have nothing whatsoever to do with sex.  This is especially true for a sensitive soul like Tommen.  

Force fed him beets.

[FuzzyJAM]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Force fed him beets.

Bully discovers a totally new kind of "beeting".

[Stark Vader]

17 minutes ago, FuzzyJAM said:

Bully discovers a totally new kind of "beeting".

Beet it, Beet it, open up your face and feed it. 

Pretty sure Joffrey just used to do the regular kind of beating though. 

[LordStoneheart]

This is one of those times where I think death of the author is needed. That quote is not at all in line with what he wrote. If anything, I would say it's a full ret-con if he really thinks that. Which ordinarily wouldn't bother me, I don't really have an issue with retcons for small things, but that one is too far. He might as well have said he was a truly compassionate and good ruler. With brown hair. And is actually female.

[Cas Stark]

On 2/8/2016 at 0:55 PM, Protagoras said:

9 hours ago, kimim said:

idk if this is pertinent, but my neighbor has a son who tortured and killed a feral cat when he was seven, then dug up our dead cat a year later. He called me over to look at what he'd done, and laughed hysterically at my reaction. Eight years later, he's a normal human being. Happily, he did not have Cersei as a mother, and, most important, he did not have absolute power. He was forced to adjust, and he did. I realize that some people don't, or can't. I also get completely what GRRM says about Joffrey.

 

I doubt that.  He may have learned to hide his pathology, but he is not a normal human being, not by a long shot.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I doubt that.  He may have learned to hide his pathology, but he is not a normal human being, not by a long shot.

 

Good that you are able to diagnose someone you have never met and have only been told one thing about them on the internet.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Good that you are able to diagnose someone you have never met and have only been told one thing about them on the internet.

Tortured and a killed a cat at age 7, then dug up a dead cat when they were 8  Yup.  I'm fully confident that such a person is not normal and never will be.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I used to be pretty cruel to animals when I was a little kid, I remember catching guppies out of an outdoor fishpond and impaling them on cactus spines when I was about 6 or 7, hunted cats with a blowgun and homemade poison as a 12 year old.  Now I've probably got more than an average amount of empathy and am a pretty strong advocate of animal rights.  Kids go through phases, there's a reason why a lot of psychiatric diagnoses are not given until you are older - everybody is insane as a kid, it's only mental illness if you don't grow out of it.

[Kaguya]

1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

I used to be pretty cruel to animals when I was a little kid, I remember catching guppies out of an outdoor fishpond and impaling them on cactus spines when I was about 6 or 7, hunted cats with a blowgun and homemade poison as a 12 year old.  Now I've probably got more than an average amount of empathy and am a pretty strong advocate of animal rights.  Kids go through phases, there's a reason why a lot of psychiatric diagnoses are not given until you are older - everybody is insane as a kid, it's only mental illness if you don't grow out of it.

I didn't wanna say anything here because there's a lot of judgmental mr know it all's In this thread, but now that you've said it I'll say that I went through the exact same phase as a kid. I couldn't bare to touch animals with the intent of any harm now, but back then I was pretty cruel. 

 

To to back this up, there's a documentary called "Child of rage" (it's available on YouTube). It's about this little girl that used to torture animals, who was thought to be a psychopath. Turns out she was sexually abused by her father. Now she's a nurse and a loving person. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 hours ago, Kaguya said:

I didn't wanna say anything here because there's a lot of judgmental mr know it all's In this thread, but now that you've said it I'll say that I went through the exact same phase as a kid. I couldn't bare to touch animals with the intent of any harm now, but back then I was pretty cruel. 

Glad others are saying stuff like this, the idea that cruelty to animals is a sign of irretrievable mental illness is ridiculous. Me and my friends used to feed baking soda to seagulls in order to watch them explode in the sky. We were probably about 12/13. I also knew kids who used to tear apart frogs (I thought that was pretty gruesome and didn't do it myself). Either way, kids do this sort of thing. They salt slugs, pull wings off flies, etc. People's fixation on that cat is rather ridiculous to me. 

I think Joffery's actions against people, to the point of physically and sexually assaulting Sansa and killing others, cross the line from garden-variety bully to dangerous and murderous person...but that in part, as many people say, can be down to the power he has rather than his being a psychopath. Either way, it's those actions that he should be judged on.

People do the same thing with serial killers in the real world. We find out someone has been killing drifters and then find stories from their youth about all the horrible things they did to pets. While that might be a sign of being disturbed at an early age, it does not follow that it's proof of them being a psychopath. That attitude worries me, because it suggests that children who do bad things are irredeemable from then on.