GRRM didn't seem to think Joffrey was a psychopath, just a classic bully

[RedShirt47]

His treatment of animals aside, didn't Joffrey fire his crossbow at the people protesting outside the Red Keep?

He had that singer's tongue cut out. He would have killed Dontos for just being drunk only for Sansa stopping him.

Then there was he treatment of Ned. Likely prompted to behead him by LF but he still did it.

That's beyond "bully" territory. He may not be the whore torturing phyco portrayed on the show but he was beyond a mere bully.

[Kaguya]

28 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

His treatment of animals aside, didn't Joffrey fire his crossbow at the people protesting outside the Red Keep?

He had that singer's tongue cut out. He would have killed Dontos for just being drunk only for Sansa stopping him.

Then there was he treatment of Ned. Likely prompted to behead him by LF but he still did it.

That's beyond "bully" territory. He may not be the whore torturing phyco portrayed on the show but he was beyond a mere bully.

It's not beyond bully though. Not in the world of medieval times. He was a crowned prince with a horrible mother whispering in his ear that he is the King, and that fear is greater than love. Add that to him becoming a dictator and....Bam 

 

Also, hasn't there been plenty of young monarchs throughout medieval history that have been pretty terrible leaders. Haven't got exact examples. Will probably look into it later and bring back evidence should I find any.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

27 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Also, hasn't there been plenty of young monarchs throughout medieval history that have been pretty terrible leaders. Haven't got exact examples. Will probably look into it later and bring back evidence should I find any.

Example - Richard II in England, back-stabbed the Peasant's Revolt and lopped off their leaders' heads. Was a pretty tyrannical king (relatively speaking of course, none of the Plantagenets were exactly democrats)

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

59 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

That's beyond "bully" territory. He may not be the whore torturing phyco portrayed on the show but he was beyond a mere bully.

The point of GRRM's and others' remarks, it seems to me, is imagine taking one of those thirteen year old nutters who liked to torment other kids and give them a huge amount of power...and the results may be a very twisted individual. I don't dispute that Joffery is clearly a deeply dangerous person, perhaps twisted beyond help even at thirteen, but it's not the same as being a stone cold psychopath. 

[Kaguya]

13 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Example - Richard II in England, back-stabbed the Peasant's Revolt and lopped off their leaders' heads. Was a pretty tyrannical king (relatively speaking of course, none of the Plantagenets were exactly democrats)

Found a list, and surprise surprise!

 

http://www.oddee.com/item_99033.aspx

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

One of the purposes of a class system like in medieval times or in Westeros is to reduce empathy for the ruled by the rulers - in such brutal times, it could be hard to be an effective ruler if you felt too much empathy for all those commoners you pulled from their fields and forced to go march to their probable deaths.  You get rulers who feel compelled to march at the head of their armies of conscripts, and often get killed and cause even greater problems for the stability of their realm.  Children often lack empathy for others for various reasons - they are un-cute animals, they are jerks they hate, they are brought up to feel that certain types of people are to be looked down on.  When they get older that empathy can grow and they grow out of those harmful behaviors, and learn that cruelty to those that you lack empathy for is pointless and actually harms oneself.  But the same impulse that causes kids to hurt animals would also cause a kid to hurt a lowborn if they were brought up to think of them as a lesser being, as Joffrey is.

 

[RedShirt47]

5 hours ago, Kaguya said:

It's not beyond bully though. Not in the world of medieval times. He was a crowned prince with a horrible mother whispering in his ear that he is the King, and that fear is greater than love. Add that to him becoming a dictator and....Bam 

 

Also, hasn't there been plenty of young monarchs throughout medieval history that have been pretty terrible leaders. Haven't got exact examples. Will probably look into it later and bring back evidence should I find any.

the "teenage bully" notion implies that he'd grow out of it and probably regret his actions later. I don't believe that Joffrey would have ever out-grown his nastiness.

I'm not saying there aren't reasons he is how he is (at least partly) but I believe that had he lived another ten years there would have been an even more vicious king than Aerys The Mad tormenting his people.

Tommen lived in more or less the same environment and yet hasn't shown the same nastiness. Unless he's just too young to do so.

[Tijgy]

19 hours ago, Kaguya said:

Joffrey was what, 13 when he died? It makes no sense he would lust after his brother sexually when he barely had a sex drive when he died.

Children of 13 can sexual abuse their younger siblings. Those cases are of course completely devastating and horrible but they still can happen. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, RedShirt47 said:

the "teenage bully" notion implies that he'd grow out of it and probably regret his actions later. I don't believe that Joffrey would have ever out-grown his nastiness.

I agree. He'd have no reason to outgrow his teenage bullying, would he? The whole process of outgrowing such behaviors is getting enough negative consequences that the bully learns not to give in to those impulses. Who would have the power or the inclination to inflict those negative consequences on Joffrey?

Tywin, perhaps. Although when Tywin had the chance to enact some discipline, all he did was send Joffrey to bed without any supper. Fat lot of good that did, I'm sure.

 

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I agree. He'd have no reason to outgrow his teenage bullying, would he? The whole process of outgrowing such behaviors is getting enough negative consequences that the bully learns not to give in to those impulses. Who would have the power or the inclination to inflict those negative consequences on Joffrey?

Tywin, perhaps. Although when Tywin had the chance to enact some discipline, all he did was send Joffrey to bed without any supper. Fat lot of good that did, I'm sure.

Tywin was preparing a harsh lesson for Joff, he never had the time to enact it though.

[Light a wight tonight]

On 2/7/2016 at 6:45 AM, purple-eyes said:

 

Sure, you are a reader so you know how Joff is really cruel and you may feel he deserves to be murdered, etc.

But my point is that, Olenna only heard from somebody about Joff is dangerous and cruel (which may be true or may not be true since it is a second handed talking), in stead of trying to dissolve the marriage or smuggle out Margarey or maybe declare Margarey is sick or whatever which makes her unfit to marry a king, she simply decided to murder him. This does sound cruel too.

 

 

 

Another factor is that Olenna knew that Loras would not have tolerated Joff mistreating Margaery the way he mistreated Sansa. Loras would have been Kingslayer the Second, and would have been executed for it. Olenna was in on the plot to kill Joff to protect both Marg and Loras.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Kaguya said:

Joffrey was what, 13 when he died? It makes no sense he would lust after his brother sexually when he barely had a sex drive when he died.

Sex drives don't suddenly emerge at age 13. Even little babies get aroused. (Geez, I hope this thread doesn't wind up in an NSA analytics engine.)

19 hours ago, FuzzyJAM said:

I can assure you that there are lots of horrible things a big brother can do to a little brother that have nothing whatsoever to do with sex.  This is especially true for a sensitive soul like Tommen.  

Regardless of what it was, if it was bad enough to make Tommen go away inside, it is certainly a higher level of atrocity than killing a couple of cats. I know people who rush to change the TV channel whenever one of those abused dog commercials come on, but don't bat an eyelash when it is starving third-world children. Remarkable.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Considering the statement from the author that kickstarted this thread this seems like an unlikely conclusion (though I can see why many think it).

I'm not saying Joff is or is not a "psychopath" or just another bully. I just find it amusing that people who believe the former always bring up the cat episode first and gloss over all of the wicked things he's done to people.

 

[Cas Stark]

29 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not saying Joff is or is not a "psychopath" or just another bully. I just find it amusing that people who believe the former always bring up the cat episode first and gloss over all of the wicked things he's done to people.

 

I think people bring up the cat episode because he was so young and because the characters themselves had such a strong reaction, but ther is ample other evidence that Joff was more than a teenage bully given absolute power.  Like whatever he did to his brother to make him go away inside.  And that at age 13 he's an accomplished liar, able to fake the necessary emotions when needed, and that he nowhere shows any empathy or compassion for a single person....just like his mother, who also exhibited violent anti social tendencies at a very young age...and there is his sadism,  he's not only cruel and harsh but enjoys it, 

He also continues to kill cats with his crossbow so it was not an isolated incident.

[Sullen]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I think people bring up the cat episode because he was so young and because the characters themselves had such a strong reaction, but ther is ample other evidence that Joff was more than a teenage bully given absolute power.  Like whatever he did to his brother to make him go away inside.  And that at age 13 he's an accomplished liar, able to fake the necessary emotions when needed, and that he nowhere shows any empathy or compassion for a single person....just like his mother, who also exhibited violent anti social tendencies at a very young age...and there is his sadism,  he's not only cruel and harsh but enjoys it, 

He also continues to kill cats with his crossbow so it was not an isolated incident.

He bullied him.

Tommen is a fragile emotional child, Jofrrey bullies him regularly, hence Tommen goes away inside when Joff starts treating him badly.

I really don't think George would have called Joffrey "just a classic bully" if he raped/tortured his little brother.

He shows empathy and compassion for his father, and is sad once he dies.

As for being cruel and enjoying it, have you ever been around children?

[Kaguya]

5 hours ago, RedShirt47 said:

the "teenage bully" notion implies that he'd grow out of it and probably regret his actions later. I don't believe that Joffrey would have ever out-grown his nastiness.

I'm not saying there aren't reasons he is how he is (at least partly) but I believe that had he lived another ten years there would have been an even more vicious king than Aerys The Mad tormenting his people.

Tommen lived in more or less the same environment and yet hasn't shown the same nastiness. Unless he's just too young to do so.

No, Tommen was neglected most of his life. Once he was King Tywin wanted to send Cersei back to the rock because he feared she would turn Tommen into anotrher Joffrey, remember? 

 

And as for Joff growing out of it. Why do you assume that? Tywin was ready to pull him in line as someone else noted. Maegary could have also helped bring out the empathy in him. George specifically leaves it open to interpretation for that reason.