"Guardians" and the nature of the Others

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

SPOILERS ALL for "Guardians," a short story from Martin's collection Tuf Voyaging.

I actually read the story in Dreamsongs, which only includes 2 Tuff stories, so I'm not totally up on my Haviland Tuf knowledge. But the dilemma that is presented and solved in "Guardians" struck me as being possibly quite a close analogy to the dilemma Westeros had with the Others during the Long Night. 

 

Synopsis:

Quote

 

Haviland Tuf is the owner and sole crew of the Ark, a huge spaceship containing genetic material from millions of plants and animals from planets all over the galaxy. He prides himself on his humanitarianism and also loves animals (especially cats). So he's very intrigued to hear about a planet called Namor where humans are being attacked by sea monsters. 

Previously, Namor was simply a planet of very rich oceans full of fish and a type of large clam called "mudpots." The only nuisance in its waters was a Namorean man-o-war, a sort of squid/octopus mashup that was about the size of a human. It was dangerous to swimmers but commercial fishing craft cleared it out of their fishing lanes easily. 

It turns out the sea monsters, despite being 1) enormous and 2) physiologically incapable of hiding in the deep ocean -- have appeared quite recently to plague the humans of a planet that has been settled for about a hundred years. As soon as the humans figure out a way to handle or defeat one type of monster, a new one pops up. Tuf wants to deeply explore the ecology of the planet, but due to the crisis situation a member of Namor's military guild, a Guardian, threatens to murder Tuf's kittens if he doesn't act right away. So he clones the fiercest creatures of the galaxy and unleashes them on the planet's monsters. This works for about a week, until new, more resilient monsters emerge and things get worse than ever. 

Tuf announces he has solved the problem and demands that all the leaders of Namor gather to hear his explanation. He shows up late, muddy, carrying nothing with him but a small kitten and a "mudpot." 

Turns out the kitten is a special telepathic type of kitten, and Tuf has used it to communicate with the mudpots, which, unbeknownst to the Namorian humans, are telepathic and very intelligent. The things the humans cleared out, calling them pests and "man-o-wars", were known by the mudpots as Guardians. Once the humans killed all their guardians, the mudpots set about making bigger and badder guardians. Along with telepathy, the mudpots also have the ability to genetically engineer sea creatures. 

So Tuf leaves a litter of telepathic kittens on Namor--each kitten bonded to one of the human Guardian leaders--so that they can set up a truce with the mudpots and de-escalate their various types of weaponry.

 

 

 

 

 

This, obviously, has several potential parallels to humans & Others during the Long Night:

- much like on Namor, humans had lived in Westeros for some time before any monsters appeared

- when they do appear, the monsters escalate: Others, wights, ice spiders, ice dragons 

- to solve the problem, an environmentally concerned 3rd party is consulted: Tuf for Namor, Children of the Forest for Westeros

- the humans in both cases see the things attacking them as unprovoked and totally mysterious monsters

 

...which, I think, very much lends credence to the theories that state that the Others are not evil and not unprovoked. 

 

Given the themes and conclusion of this story, I think it's quite reasonable to speculate that

- the Others, or the unseen being/beings at the Heart of Winter, are not human in nature/origin but native arctic beings that were disturbed by human migration

- their "attack" on the humans was likely self-defense (possibly in response to fire-dragon activity)

- Children of the Forest did not, in fact, give the Last Hero a weapon (i.e. Last Hero is not Azor Ahai), but instead enabled communication between humans and Others to de-escalate the conflict

- warging and animal bonding may have been either developed or adapted to enable communication between humans and Others in order to maintain the peace. Thus, perhaps the suppression of warging within the two guardian-type human organizations--Night's Watch and House Stark--has led to Others becoming a problem again.

- Night's Watch and even Wildlings may unknowingly be doing things that Others interpret as aggressive, and this is what has triggered a reaction from them

- Others may be "Guardians" for something else, less mobile but psychically very powerful, in the Heart of Winter

 

Most of these possibilities have already been proposed by other posters, some multiple times for many years. I'm not claiming to have come up with any of those bullet points myself, I'm just saying I think the themes and plot of "Guardians" may point to these ideas having a lot of merit. 

 

TL;DR: Haviland Tuff's use of a small kitten to solve the horrible environmental and political problems of the planet Namor obviously confirms that Ser Pounce is Azor Ahai and will sit the Iron Throne. (Note, this is a joke, NOT a real TL;DR)

[Myself656]

Alternately, Azor Ahai isn't the hero, but the threat that the Others are mobilizing against. After all, the R'hllor faith preaches that AA will destroy winter forever.

As to who the "telepathic kitten" is, l put forth a child of both Ice and Fire who is an outcast and a warg and has already looked past the expected prejudices of his society to try and bridge the gap between the Watch and the Wildlings...

Jon Snow, The Last Hero.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

The TL;DR is actually a joke. 

I don't think "Guardians" addresses the idea of Azor Ahai at all. Just the "Last Hero" and the idea of mysterious monsters and how to handle them.

[hiemal]

I think you may be on to something. Spitball linking it with my still embryonic eye theory:  solid eyes are deliberately engineered beings, like the Others with blue blood that evaporates in the air and dragons whose bones are so full of iron they are black while catlike eyes indicate a highly morphically variable race that manifests as the CotF, the Lengi, and possibly the Mazemakers that werere probably at some point responsible for the creation of the former.

[nanother]

3 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

SPOILERS ALL for "Guardians," a short story from Martin's collection Tuf Voyaging.

I actually read the story in Dreamsongs, which only includes 2 Tuff stories, so I'm not totally up on my Haviland Tuf knowledge. But the dilemma that is presented and solved in "Guardians" struck me as being possibly quite a close analogy to the dilemma Westeros had with the Others during the Long Night. 

 

Synopsis:

 

This, obviously, has several potential parallels to humans & Others during the Long Night:

- much like on Namor, humans had lived in Westeros for some time before any monsters appeared

- when they do appear, the monsters escalate: Others, wights, ice spiders, ice dragons 

- to solve the problem, an environmentally concerned 3rd party is consulted: Tuf for Namor, Children of the Forest for Westeros

- the humans in both cases see the things attacking them as unprovoked and totally mysterious monsters

Nope, I have to disagree here. Notice how mudpots are described in the story: each linked with the others, effrectively deathless; silent musicians weaving symphonies of thought; dreamers of strange green dreams; lost in their vast songs ... that sounds exactly like the greenseers gone into the weirwoods - the Old Gods.

In that light, if we want to take the parallel further, if we assume that the old gods can also 'manipulate the stuff of life itself', the white walkers and any other 'guardians' would be their doing. And the equivalent of Tuf would perhaps be the Last Hero.

[Myself656]

It may have been meant as a joke, but I think there's a grain of truth to it regardless. If the Others are not an unreasoning force of evil, but responding to a percieved act of aggression then someone is going to have to be the mediator between them and others (pardon the pun) and I really don't think the champion of the fire god is going to have the perspective to do that.

I think "Guardians" might address AA indirectly in the sense that the Mudpots were reacting to a specific threat from the humans to their existance that humans weren't even aware they were making.

Now consider the prospect that AA is likely just another name for the Bloodstone Emperor who ushered in the Long Night by murdering his sister (sister-wife?) to gain his power (Lightbringer i.e. dragons) and unleashed a reign of terror over the world.

So AA/BSE sets off an 'endless winter' (likely as a side-effect of creating Lightbringer/dragons) in his bid for control of the world and some opposing force (possibly the CotF) creates the Others to fight back. Finally some human decides to seek a third option and seeks out the CotF in order to make peace.

Only its been so long since the Long Night that people forgot whatever the terms of the treaty were and with the rebirth of dragons and the potential for the rise of a second Bloodstone Emperor the Others have returned to protect whatever they were meant to the first time.

Now someone is going to have to again establish a peace between Ice and Fire so all the common folk stuck the middle have any chance of surviving.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

19 minutes ago, nanother said:

Nope, I have to disagree here. Notice how mudpots are described in the story: each linked with the others, effrectively deathless; silent musicians weaving symphonies of thought; dreamers of strange green dreams; lost in their vast songs ... that sounds exactly like the greenseers gone into the weirwoods - the Old Gods.

In that light, if we want to take the parallel further, if we assume that the old gods can also 'manipulate the stuff of life itself', the white walkers and any other 'guardians' would be their doing. And the equivalent of Tuf would perhaps be the Last Hero.

That's a possible take on it. I have been mulling over the possibility that the weirwoods and their root systems extend up into the Land of Always Winter and some manifestation of that is what Bran saw in his vision.

But the thing is that *something* is up there, something that Bran found very shocking when he saw it.

When we look at the mudpots, we see a sort of system: immobile collective intelligence, surrounded by guardians, able to manipulate nature.

With the CotF we already know all the parts of this system: immobile collective intelligence (the weirwood/dead greenseer network), surrounded by guardians (the living CotF with their flying snares and obsidian knives), able to manipulate nature (via warging and creation of more weirwoods; possibly also through weather manipulation).

We've also seen the results of human contact and conflict with this system, and its resolution--the warring of CotF and First Men, and the pact at the Isle of Faces.

I think the Others represent yet another system, separate from the CotF, native to an icy rather than forested environment. It has a collective intelligence up in the Lands of Always Winter, guardians in the form of the Others, and manipulates nature to create wights, ice spiders, etc. There was also a resolution and pact with this system, but the terms have been forgotten and conflict is renewing. The icy system is a lot more powerful and dangerous than the CotF system was. Ultimately, humans just kind of defeated the CotF (after the Andals); I don't think they can do that with the thing in the LoAW. Like the mudpots and unlike the CotF, the ice system is able to escalate indefinitely, creating monstrous ice dragons and who knows what else.

The Thousand Worlds include many different types of collective intelligence, so I don't think Planetos is necessarily limited to just one. Martin seems to love them enough to bring in multiples.

And my sense from the text is that CotF did not make and do not control wights or Others. They do not seem able to control the wights outside their cave, and their cave is sealed against them. Ice does not seem to be the element of the CotF. We encounter them underground, among the roots of trees, not out in the ice and snow.

Rather, I think they are able to form a cultural bridge between humans and the ice system, enabling communication. They more or less understand humans, and because they also have a collective intelligence they are able to understand the ice system.

In "Guardians," I think Kefira Qay corresponds with the Last Hero, seeking help for her people. She is separated from her companions and is her people's liason to Tuf. The Last Hero is not able to get real help until his sword breaks--until the violent option is taken from him--and in the same way Kefira is not able to get real help until she gives up on escalating the monster war.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

I think you may be on to something. Spitball linking it with my still embryonic eye theory:  solid eyes are deliberately engineered beings, like the Others with blue blood that evaporates in the air and dragons whose bones are so full of iron they are black while catlike eyes indicate a highly morphically variable race that manifests as the CotF, the Lengi, and possibly the Mazemakers that werere probably at some point responsible for the creation of the former.

Ooh, interesting.

That actually connects to my gemstone eye theory...that humans practicing color-based magic could make themselves much more powerful and possibly extend their lives (i.e. deliberately engineer themselves) by replacing their eyes with gemstones (i.e. making them solidly one color). This solid-eye theme could extend to engineered elemental creatures.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

7 minutes ago, Myself656 said:

It may have been meant as a joke, but I think there's a grain of truth to it regardless. If the Others are not an unreasoning force of evil, but responding to a percieved act of aggression then someone is going to have to be the mediator between them and others (pardon the pun) and I really don't think the champion of the fire god is going to have the perspective to do that.

I think "Guardians" might address AA indirectly in the sense that the Mudpots were reacting to a specific threat from the humans to their existance that humans weren't even aware they were making.

Now consider the prospect that AA is likely just another name for the Bloodstone Emperor who ushered in the Long Night by murdering his sister (sister-wife?) to gain his power (Lightbringer i.e. dragons) and unleashed a reign of terror over the world.

So AA/BSE sets off an 'endless winter' (likely as a side-effect of creating Lightbringer/dragons) in his bid for control of the world and some opposing force (possibly the CotF) creates the Others to fight back. Finally some human decides to seek a third option and seeks out the CotF in order to make peace.

Only its been so long since the Long Night that people forgot whatever the terms of the treaty were and with the rebirth of dragons and the potential for the rise of a second Bloodstone Emperor the Others have returned to protect whatever they were meant to the first time.

Now someone is going to have to again establish a peace between Ice and Fire so all the common folk stuck the middle have any chance of surviving.

Ok, yeah, I mostly agree with all that--1st paragraph and last 2 paragraphs for sure.

Not the BSE=AA part (I know what you're talking about, I am generally a big fan of LmL but disagree on this point) or that AE was a sister-wife or that AE/Nissa Nissa were the same.

I also think the "opposing force" was natively ice-based, and not the CotF. I just don't think ice dragons are in their wheelhouse.

What I *do* think is possible is that CotF created wildfire (*green* fire that grows and ripens and is so often described in organic terms; Arys's fruits, blood of a great beast) in response to human aggression and that the threat of that being unleashed may have been what brought humans to the negotiating table. So I'm not arguing CotF are such nice people, just that ice isn't their element.

And the story of the Last Hero seems to view CotF as a third party, not team human or team ice. And this story, "Guardians," seems to emphasize that having a neutral-ish third party is critical to bringing peace. (In ASOIAF this idea is also echoed in multiple conflicts, including the Blackwood/Bracken feud, wars between Lyse/Myr/Tyrosh, and so on). If CotF are the creators of the ice monsters then they are not a third party.

In the human/CotF conflict, 3rd party was likely Garth Greenhands and/or human-CotF hybrids, represented by House Mudd and now by House Reed.

[Myself656]

Yeah, LmL has some interesting theories, but I don't ascribe to them all either.

The Bloodstone Emperor = Azor Ahai though really does because I've been thinking for awhile now that AA not being a hero (except to a culture known for slavery, blood magic, necromancy and shadow binding) due to the setup with Dany (particularly if AA = TPTWP = TSWMTW is true) and that basically either extreme of Ice or Fire basically makes the world unihabitable to the common folk that any true king is supposed to protect (thus the solution must be peace/restoration of balance and not a war where one side vanquishes the other... and that's where Jon comes in, not as a champion of fire like Dany, but as the balance of Ice and Fire).

LmL just happened to express what I'd been feeling about Dany for awhile now (admittedly it took the burning of Shireen in the show juxtaposed with Dany throwing a man that she didn't even know if he was innocent or guilty to her dragons to be burned alive and eaten to really go back and re-examine my assumptions about Dany but now I literally cannot unsee all the setup for Dany to become a power-mad conqueror... which I think will be GRRM's twist to the prophecies rather than it being about the wrong person).

Essentially, AA is going represent all the worst traits of mankind and the reason the Others are on the march in the first place and that Jon is going to be our neutral party this time around.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Ah, the "Dany-will-be-evil" bit. I'm not into that either.

But we're getting off track.  The point in regards to this thread is, I think, that bloodmagic-fueled flaming swords are not going to ultimately solve Westeros's problems any more than intergalactic cloned sea creatures solved the problems of Namor--which I think is a point we are agreeing on.

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Ooh, interesting.

That actually connects to my gemstone eye theory...that humans practicing color-based magic could make themselves much more powerful and possibly extend their lives (i.e. deliberately engineer themselves) by replacing their eyes with gemstones (i.e. making them solidly one color). This solid-eye theme could extend to engineered elemental creatures.

 

And brings up the fascinating example of Symeon- who not only used two gems but gems of two colors!

I would like to ramble on from that excaimation:

Westeros seems to stand at a crux between worldviews; for example, between the idea of the eye as an organ that emits something (sight) to one that receives it (light). The mythic idea of eyes shooting out beams of energy (an idea I suspect we will be realized in Euron's gem-eye) is being eclipsed by the realization that the eye is a lens that changes the course of light in specific predictable ways.

And so we have the Ur-example with star-sapphires in his eyes. This seems pretty clearly in reference to the powers of the Others and may argue well for the undead LH idea, imho.

We have Mors Umber sporting obsidian, which has always struck me as an interesting contrast with SSE. SSE, who sounds like a kung-fu bad-ass to me with his blind moves and double-bladed staff, would seem to be more naturally associated with obsidian, and Mors with the chilly star sapphire.

There is the crate of ivory eyes that Dany hocks. Ivory is a terrestrial pearl analog, perhaps?

I wonder if anyone has a fossilized weirwood eyeball?

 

[Evolett]

23 minutes ago, hiemal said:

 

And brings up the fascinating example of Symeon- who not only used two gems but gems of two colors!

I would like to ramble on from that excaimation:

 

You really should read my blog @hiemal 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I had a long post about eyes that got deleted during the purge. I have a draft saved, though; maybe I should repost and we could more effectively compare notes.

Beams shooting out of eyes is not something I'd considered, but perhaps I should.

"Why star sapphires and not just sapphires" is a perennial question when you run into SSE. I haven't really come up with a satisfactory answer. This two-color idea might be a good line of inquiry--blue and white rather than just blue. Representing a fusion of human blue magic and natural ice magic, perhaps?

Or it's the idea of shining stars--stars sending beams of light to earth, SSE may project "beams" of power using his eyes, if he's in any way behind the creation of blue-eyed Others and wights.

Or if he's the inspiration for the rider of the Ice Dragon constellation, the star/sapphire may be meant to point to that (blue stars=star sapphires?).

There's another Martin story, "In the Lost Lands," which features a sapphire knight. He has regular eyes and regular sapphires...but I do want to incorporate him into a post at some point. I kind of squee'd when I read that story because I've been theorizing a Sapphire Knight figure for so long, with only SSE and some weird Tarth stuff to go on.

 

Oh, and about Mors: the story of how he lost his eye has always interested me. A crow ate his eye, then he ate the crow's head. Brings in the idea of escalation, and the warg notion of the human and animal being part of each other (quite literally in the case of Mors and the raven). Crow eating his eye also invokes Odin trading his eye for wisdom. Between all that and the bear pelt I'm going to be very surprised if Mors isn't a warg or potential warg. I also think he's using warg-dreams or warged ravens to communicate with his brother during Dance.

Boy this is off topic...

...so maybe wargs like Mors will help communicate with the others and end the Second Long Night...

...there, lol.

[Evolett]

In the effort to decipher the backstory, I too have read numerous books, including many of George’s short stories. The all-permeating consciousness is a popular theme and the idea of the Others as Guardians appears compelling. One notices similarity in subject matter and thinks it could be this or it could be that, but to be honest, I’ve given up on that. I find it more rewarding to dig deep into the story itself.

When I consider some of the major events, all the intrigues, the scheming and plotting, the wars etc. I can’t imagine the Others as ‘guardians’ in the above sense. In a world where one House destroys another, indeed, where one civilization wipes out another, violence, retribution and revenge are inevitable – as is the struggle to maintain power. Dragons are the tools Old Valyria created to maintain the upper hand and imo, the Others play a similar role. Many of the principles of justice, what is acceptable or not, the taboos, the penalties are alien to us – they would be, it’s a different world. But all these things generate negative sentiments; treachery, rivalry and the desire for vengeance run through the narrative like a red line. From Miiri Maz Dur to Lady Stoneheart, the Brackens and Blackwoods, Tywin and the Reynes, the Jhogos Nai vrs. Hykroon, the list is endless. 
So in this half-fantasy world of so much strife, the Others, like the dragons, are a likely tool to achieving an end, be it revenge or perhaps even a coup-de-tat to usurp the throne. I doubt they are a species natural to the planet. Like the dragons, I think their origin is quite unnatural, created by man himself, probably with some help from the CotF. This does mean they could be employed as ‘guardians’ or in defence as well – but that’s relative. Whoever controls them gets to make this choice.

[hiemal]

`

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

You really should read my blog @hiemal 

I have been. And enjoying them.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

In the effort to decipher the backstory, I too have read numerous books, including many of George’s short stories. The all-permeating consciousness is a popular theme and the idea of the Others as Guardians appears compelling. One notices similarity in subject matter and thinks it could be this or it could be that, but to be honest, I’ve given up on that. I find it more rewarding to dig deep into the story itself.

 I've dug pretty deeply into the story myself, and even before I launched into Dreamsongs my analysis was pointing me towards the idea that the Others in the current story are responding to human/fire magic aggression. I was already thinking that the Long Night/War for the Dawn was resolved by way of a pact, and that Team Ice has been honoring the pact this whole time as humans became forgetful.

- I think that when Old Nan spoke of Others killing everyone with "hot blood" in their veins, it didn't just mean warm live blood, but blood that enabled fire magic. Those with "hot blood" were not to cross beyond the Wall into the tree line on the other side after the pact.

- First Other attack is on a Royce. There is no other mention of a Royce ranger, ever. House Royce is an ancient First Men house with bronze runic armor. The runes are noted to be no protection against human foes. So what are they protection against? Team Ice, maybe? A hint that Royce may harbor latent "hot blood." The Other attack is specifically against Royce in the prolog; his party are dispensed with via wight or let go.

- All the remaining Other attacks have a common denominator: Sam. House Tarley *may* have "hot blood" but I think the real reason Sam is such a target is the ritual his father paid warlocks to perform when he was a boy, involving the "hot blood" of an aurochs. This had no effect on his personality but marked him as an agent of fire magic in the eyes (or other sensory organs) of the Others. So they target him repeatedly. Even his first brief foray beyond the Wall is marked by finding the wights.

In sum, my reading of the text was already telling me the Others are not attacking because magic is stronger and they are more powerful, but because they're being provoked by those they see as agents of fire magic.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

When I consider some of the major events, all the intrigues, the scheming and plotting, the wars etc. I can’t imagine the Others as ‘guardians’ in the above sense. In a world where one House destroys another, indeed, where one civilization wipes out another, violence, retribution and revenge are inevitable – as is the struggle to maintain power. Dragons are the tools Old Valyria created to maintain the upper hand and imo, the Others play a similar role. Many of the principles of justice, what is acceptable or not, the taboos, the penalties are alien to us – they would be, it’s a different world. But all these things generate negative sentiments; treachery, rivalry and the desire for vengeance run through the narrative like a red line. From Miiri Maz Dur to Lady Stoneheart, the Brackens and Blackwoods, Tywin and the Reynes, the Jhogos Nai vrs. Hykroon, the list is endless. 

True. But these are all human conflicts. Human civilization is certainly depicted as aggressive and power-hungry, often driven by anger and revenge.

But that's not something we see with other species, either on Planetos or in the Thousand Worlds galaxy. Martin routinely depicts his non-humans as taking a defensive posture in regards to humans, never being the first aggressors. Even the dreaded Hrangans of his scifi are provoked by humans intruding into their galactic space. Their retribution is severe, but they mainly seem to want to take their historical planets back from humans, not to colonize human space. And they are the most aggressive species Martin has written, as far as I've read.
 

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

So in this half-fantasy world of so much strife, the Others, like the dragons, are a likely tool to achieving an end, be it revenge or perhaps even a coup-de-tat to usurp the throne. I doubt they are a species natural to the planet. Like the dragons, I think their origin is quite unnatural, created by man himself, probably with some help from the CotF. This does mean they could be employed as ‘guardians’ or in defence as well – but that’s relative. Whoever controls them gets to make this choice.

 

Humans arrogantly intruding on the space of other species and then being shocked and appalled when the species tries to get them out is a recurring theme in Martin's scifi. "The Men of Greywater Station" & "And Seven Times Never Kill Man" are prime examples of this along with "Guardians." On Planetos we've seen this aggressive human v. defensive non-human scenario play out already with the Children of the Forest. Always the CotF are fighting *back*, fighting to keep their weirwoods from being destroyed--not trying to take over the humans or expand into Essos.

Bran notices with surprise that Leaf isn't angry or vengeful about her history with humans, just sad. I don't think this is meant to make us suspicious, but rather to underscore how not-human this nonhuman species is. The intelligent apes of Sothoryos are another example; they don't seem interested in expanding their territory, they just trade with humans, or not, and defend themselves when attacked. The Lengii seem arbitrarily violent in their purges of foreigners...but, once again, this violence is only directed at the Yi-Ti citizens who have essentially colonized their island. The Lengii have no interest in expanding beyond their island or taking over Yi Ti.

Martin seems quite invested in making his non-humans fundamentally different in nature than humans. Among other variations, they are consistently not aggressive when not provoked.

So why not the Others as well? The icy soldiers we see probably do not predate humans--they seem too humanoid for that--but whatever hive mind may exist in the Heart of Winter probably does predate them, and may well have created ice soldiers to counter human soldiers, as it made an ice dragon to counter fire dragons. As the Namorian mudpots made floaters to counter airships.

Everything Martin has said in SSM's about the Others, and everything we see about the nature of ice creatures in "The Ice Dragon", points to the idea of icy beings that exist for their own sake, not made by humans or CotF. When I read about the man-o-wars and increasingly terrifying creatures in "Guardians" it really clicked for me--especially since the Others as a sort of opposite number to the Night's Watch is an idea that's been floating around the forums since I've been here. And especially since I'd already been convinced that ignorant provocation and magical bio-war escalation played/will play major roles in the once and future Long Night conflicts.

[aryagonnakill#2]

To be honest I don't get the comparison.  Wights didn't come first WW's came first and made wights.  Also, there is no evidence of an ice dragon, so the escalation you claim really isn't there.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

To be honest I don't get the comparison.  Wights didn't come first WW's came first and made wights.  Also, there is no evidence of an ice dragon, so the escalation you claim really isn't there.

I don't think I said that wights came first. Maybe Others came first, and ice spiders were an escalation when humans hid behind walls--or climbed trees; Others don't seem interested in tree climbing based on the prolog. 

PS we don't actually know that Others "make" wights, other than in the sense that they can kill humans who then wight. If there's a collective intelligence in the Heart of Winter it's mostly likely controlling both Others and wights. With Others it may be more losley directing them, with wights a more marionette-like control. Or maybe Others do make/control wights, and the wights were the escalation--increasing the numbers available to Team Ice, psychological warfare of turning the enemy's own against them. 

You don't have to believe in the ice dragon but you can hardly say there's no evidence for it. The constellation, the sailor's tales, the fact that Martin has stated that ice-elemental dragons are his sole original contribution to the fantasy bestiary--he may not include one in ASOIAF, but I think it's at least decently likely. 

[Myself656]

14 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Ah, the "Dany-will-be-evil" bit. I'm not into that either.

But we're getting off track.  The point in regards to this thread is, I think, that bloodmagic-fueled flaming swords are not going to ultimately solve Westeros's problems any more than intergalactic cloned sea creatures solved the problems of Namor--which I think is a point we are agreeing on.

I dunno if "evil" is exactly the right word for my thoughts on Dany in a story as nuanced as this one (there are plenty of shades of grey between shiny white hero and pitch black villain), but yeah, its off-track and yes I completely agree that war is not going to be the answer (in large part because the story is going to reflect its author and if the author thought war ever solved anything he wouldn't have become a real conscientious objector (vs. those who just dodged the draft).

Indeed, based on his depictions of war in ASoIaF I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that, as in the real world, war should be a considered a "fail state" rather than a successful solution (sometimes the options left are all fail states and war is just the best of a series of really crappy options, but war should never be considered a "success").

The idea that GRRM would have one of the biggest conflicts of his magnum opus be successfully resolved by essentially a war of genocide (i.e. both sides want to see the other side slaughtered for all time) is just so counter to the values he's displayed that I simply can't imagine that as the resolution he has in mind.