Contrarius+ Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Of books not specifically posted yet -- Since you mentioned Novik, you must try Uprooted, which surely to God must pass Bechdel. I'd also recommend Carol Berg's Bridge of d'Arnath series, which has a well-rounded female protagonist for some of the books. I have not examined it closely for Bechdel-acceptability, but I can't imagine that it fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 TITUS GROAN and GORMENGHAST by Mervyn Peake Fantasy? Usually classified as such. There's nothing explicitly supernatural, but the environment is fantastic and bizarre. Passes Bechtel Test? Easily. Just flipping through finds a number of qualifying conversations. Female Main Character? No. Both the main protagonist (Titus) and the main antagonist (Steerpike) are male. Interesting Females? Sure. Gertrude, Slagg, Fuschia, Cora, Clarice. Well-Developed Females? Depends on what you mean. Almost all or the inhabitants of Gormenghast are grotesque; they are stunted either intellectually, morally, or emotionally. This is as true of the females as the males. Gertrude, for instance, has good leadership qualities, and shines in times of crisis, but is quite stunted emotionally. None of the female characters were created to be fantasy sex objects. A Little Dark? Oh yeah. Maybe more than a little. Is There Good and Evil? Oh yeah. Especially evil. Is Good and Evil clear cut? Some of the evil certainly is. Is it Approved by Church Youth Groups? Not that I ever heard. It's not Young-Adult, anyhow. Do I recommend it? Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 LUD-IN-THE-MIST by Hope Merlees Fantasy? Yeah. This was the inspiration for Neil Gaiman's STARDUST that was mentioned upthread. Passes Bechtel Test? Easily. Just flipping through finds a number of qualifying conversations. Female Main Character? No. Interesting Females? To be honest, I don't recall ANY interesting characters. But quite a few were female Well-Developed Females? Let's just say, I don't recall the male characters being much better. A Little Dark? Maybe. But I was disappointed that it wasn't darker. Is There Good and Evil? Not much of this Is Good and Evil clear cut? Not really. Is it Approved by Church Youth Groups? Not that I ever heard. It's not young adult anyhow. Do I recommend it? No. But Neil Gaiman does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 what the fuck do church youth groups have to do with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 22 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: what the fuck do church youth groups have to do with this? It's one of the criteria listed by the OP. He does not like stuff approved by church youth groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 TILL WE HAVE FACES by C.S. Lewis Fantasy? Yes. It's got myth, magic, and sword-fighting. Passes Bechtel Test? Easily. Lots of qualifying conversations. Female Main Character? Yes. The protagonist and the 2 most important supporting characters are female Interesting Females? I thought so. The main protagonist is a warrior queen, who rises to the throne (as ruler, not as consort) and is a much better ruler than her father before her. Well-Developed Females? Some more than others. Even the "two-dimensional" ones turn out to have more depth than is first apparent. A Little Dark? Yeah. Its got war, plague, human sacrifice, cruelty and butchery. A man gets his balls cut off for flirting. Girls are wedded too young and die in childbirth (or was she murdered?). There's a (realistic) bedding ceremony, and it's portrayed as scary. Is There Good and Evil? Yeah. Is Good and Evil clear cut? Not so much. Let's just say that the narrator can be a bit unreliable. Is it Approved by Church Youth Groups? Not really. This ain't Chronicles of Narnia. It's too adult for the kiddies, and probably too overtly pagan-themed for most church groups. But it's CS Lewis so ... some church people might go for it. And yeah, it does have religious themes, so ... if that's an absolute turnoff for you ... Do I recommend it? I liked it. Better than his "Space Trilogy", IMHO. I can only speak for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 what do church youth groups dig, officially? unofficially? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 6 minutes ago, sologdin said: what do church youth groups dig, officially? unofficially? Dunno. Maybe the OP was just saying: nothing like Narnia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 10 hours ago, sologdin said: what do church youth groups dig, officially? unofficially? Officially, they dig the Left Behind series. Unofficially, they dig graves. But with some progressive, Youth-Right-to-Work legislation, we can make their unofficial dreams an official reality. Support your Little Lichyard Laborers' Local! ETA: I believe the Old Bard originally had an all female ensemble, skull included, during the Hamlet / gravedigger scene, but changed the sex of the characters around at the last minute to appease some local church youth groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The Left Behind series does not meet the Bechdel test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 is there a reverse bechdel analysis, wherein one looks for two so-called male persons who converse about something other than an alleged female person? and, if so, is it significant of anything? i suspect that there should be a substantial statistical difference between the results of bechdel proper and bechdel reverse, if a charge of broad-based aesthetic discrimination on the basis of 'sex' is to be borne. larry, shakespearean oeuvre is the place to start. will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 12 hours ago, ChillyPolly said: TILL WE HAVE FACES by C.S. Lewis I haven't read that one. Will have to check it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 22 hours ago, LongRider said: The Left Behind series does not meet the Bechdel test. The Left Behind series is actively misogynist in places. But that's the least of the series' problems coming from a liberal Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 DP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 On 2/8/2016 at 5:50 PM, Leap said: I think Harry Potter passes, although it was surprisingly close. Women frequently talk to each other, but it's nearly always when Harry is present (as the protagonist). Private conversations between women are alluded to a few times I think, but I'm coming up blank on an instance where we actually observe a private, women-only conversation, that isn't about men. Make of that what you will. Discworld definitely passes. Stardust does, too. Regarding Wheel of Time, I do not credit it with genuinely passing the Bechdel test as there are only so many times you can bring together a limited number of words and not get something good at least one of those times. Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson are certainly pseudonyms for the Infinite Monkey. Harry Potter has that scene between Narcissa and Bellatrix, and one between Lily and Petunia, though Snape is the subject for part of the conversation at least. So it kind of does pass, but is restricted by its focus on only Harry as a PoV. As for Wheel of Time, I fail to see how it doesn't genuinely pass with flying colors. Like a few chapters in, Egwene and Moiraine have a conversation about the One Power and Egwene becoming Aes Sedai, and that's just the first of many many conversations where women talk about all sorts of things not related to men. Just because it has other issues related to how women are portrayed doesn't mean it doesn't pass the Bechdel test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said: Harry Potter has that scene between Narcissa and Bellatrix, and one between Lily and Petunia, though Snape is the subject for part of the conversation at least. So it kind of does pass, but is restricted by its focus on only Harry as a PoV. As for Wheel of Time, I fail to see how it doesn't genuinely pass with flying colors. Like a few chapters in, Egwene and Moiraine have a conversation about the One Power and Egwene becoming Aes Sedai, and that's just the first of many many conversations where women talk about all sorts of things not related to men. Just because it has other issues related to how women are portrayed doesn't mean it doesn't pass the Bechdel test. I thought about the Narcissa/Bellatrix conversation too. But, isn't the subject of that conversation Draco/Voldemort/Severus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 27 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said: I thought about the Narcissa/Bellatrix conversation too. But, isn't the subject of that conversation Draco/Voldemort/Severus? Oops forgot the Draco part. Then yes, it doesn't fit the parameters of the test. Conversations between women are alluded to, of course, like McGonagall and Hermione discussing her time turner, but I don't think that counts. Just did a Google search, and one conversation fits: Harry, while imprisoned, overhears Bellatrix torturing Hermione. They're discussing a sword, so it appears to pass the test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I didn't see anyone mention Anne McCaffrey's Chronicles of Pern and thought that should be remedied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Passing and worth checking out: Jim Hines' Princess books Kameron Hurley - Mirror Empire Alliette de Bodard - House of Broken Wings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alienor Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix, they've got female protagonists, and multiple important female characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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