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The Thousand Islands and the CoTF (and the deep ones)


Falcon2908

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TWOIAF:

Still farther east lie the so-called Thousand Islands (Ibbenese chartmakers tell us that there are in truth fewer than three hundred), a seagirt scatter of bleak windswept rocks believed by some to be the last remnants of a drowned kingdom whose towns and towers were submerged beneath the rising seas many thousands of years ago. Only the boldest or the most desperate mariners ever make landfall here, for the people of these islands, though few in number, are a queer folk, inimical to strangers, a hairless people with green-tinged skin who file the teeth of their females into sharp points and slice the foreskins from the members of their males. They speak no known tongue and are said to sacrifice sailors to their squamous, fishheaded gods, likenesses of whom rise from their stony shores, visible only when the tide recedes. Though surrounded by water on all sides, these islanders fear the sea so much that they will not set foot in the water even under threat of death.

 

 

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TWOIAF:

Beyond N'ghai are the forests of Mossovy, a cold dark land of shapechangers and demon hunters.

 

So it seems that the Thousand Islanders were once a powerful kingdom. Mossovy sounds like a place containing CoTF.   Perhaps thousands of years ago, The Thousand Islanders wanted to conquer Mossovy but the CoTF stopped them by flooding their Kingdom. This is similar to the flooding of the arm of Dorne and the flooding of the neck.   

Then the Deep Ones (The fisheaded gods or the Squishers) saw that the Thousand Islanders are now weak, and thus began to use them for producing children.  This is what I believe anyway.

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There's not a lot of evidence to support the idea that COTF live in Mossovy other than that it's a forest with shapechangers in it. That's not exactly ironclad proof. While the ifequefron who (possibly) live further west than the thousand islands and north of the dothraki sea sound more like the children. 

As to the sinking of the islanders mainland, I agree it does sound a bit like hammer of waters. However I see no reason to think that it couldn't have been caused by the deep ones themselves. For why? Who can know, whether it be the COTF or the children of Dagon (not Greyjoy, lovecraft Dagon), we cannot presently say. 

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39 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I believe something similar.  I believe the cotf and Deep Ones constantly warred and made peace.  The thousand isles could have been a Deep One kingdom itself, and they could have taken the thousand islanders as thralls.

Hmm  I wonder how the Thousand Islanders conquered the islands of the Deep Ones? Maybe some help with the CoTF???????

However, the thousand Islanders thought "I'm the boss now!" and decided to conquer the CoTF.  The CoTF were enough of their shit so they flooded the kingdom. 

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1 hour ago, Falcon2908 said:

Hmm  I wonder how the Thousand Islanders conquered the islands of the Deep Ones? Maybe some help with the CoTF???????

However, the thousand Islanders thought "I'm the boss now!" and decided to conquer the CoTF.  The CoTF were enough of their shit so they flooded the kingdom. 

I'm not suggesting they conquered it, but were taken as thralls like the Ironborn, and survived the cotf breaking the land into the islands.

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I believe that the Children's raising of global sea levels in order to break the Arm of Dorne resulted in catastrophic flooding the world over, submerging the low-lying kingdom of what is now the Thousand Islands. I think it is likely that the Islanders' physical peculiarities are due to them originally being from Mossovy, as they were cut off from the forest by the waters. Perhaps their fear of the sea comes from the memory of the devastation the floods wrought on their society thousands of years ago?

If you're interested in my theory behind this, a link to a watered-down version is in my signature.

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1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I believe that the Children's raising of global sea levels in order to break the Arm of Dorne resulted in catastrophic flooding the world over, submerging the low-lying kingdom of what is now the Thousand Islands. I think it is likely that the Islanders' physical peculiarities are due to them originally being from Mossovy, as they were cut off from the forest by the waters. Perhaps their fear of the sea comes from the memory of the devastation the floods wrought on their society thousands of years ago?

If you're interested in my theory behind this, a link to a watered-down version is in my signature.

My thinking about the Deep Ones taking them as thralls is due to the combo of them not wanting to go in the water, and Nimble Dicks tale of the squishers(Deep Ones) coming out of the water to steal people.

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13 hours ago, Falcon2908 said:

 

Then the Deep Ones (The fisheaded gods or the Squishers) saw that the Thousand Islanders are now weak, and thus began to use them for producing children.  This is what I believe anyway.

I could see it being a Shadow Over Innsmouth situation, merlings and humans interbreeding and the progeny only finding their way to water after a gradual metamorphosis that takes place over the course of years after most of a "normal" human lifespan. 

Or the survivors could have inherited a pathological fear of the water after their civilization was inundated, possibly in an aggressive action on the Deep Ones' part.

The Thousand Islands proximity to Mossovy (Russia or I'll eat the furry hat I don't have covered in Russian dressing) makes me wonder if GRRM had salad on his mind?

 

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20 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

My thinking about the Deep Ones taking them as thralls is due to the combo of them not wanting to go in the water, and Nimble Dicks tale of the squishers(Deep Ones) coming out of the water to steal people.

I confess I've always been a bit sceptical of the legends of squishers and Deep Ones. I believe that, while they may exist, GRRM would have talked about them a bit more if he'd been planning to make them integral to the plot.

I quite like the idea that the tales of the Deep Ones is a corruption of the memory of the sea rushing in to sweep away the people, as over time the tale became anthropomorphised into monsters. Perhaps the lumbering squishers are in fact wights?

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3 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

 

I quite like the idea that the tales of the Deep Ones is a corruption of the memory of the sea rushing in to sweep away the people, as over time the tale became anthropomorphised into monsters. Perhaps the lumbering squishers are in fact wights?

On the one hand I like this idea because it is economical, it whittles down the number of supernatural players on the field.

On the other hand, I love H.P. 's craft. Although the chill-factor would be preserved if legends of Deep Ones are just that, I confess that at some level I just want them to be real.

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To answer to OP, do we really need the CotF to flood a land?

We know that in much more recent times the Rhoynar had water magic and were able to flood cities... why should we presume that only the Children were powerful enough to set such a catastrophe in motion?

It could've been them, of course. But the Children left very distinctive signs all over Westeros and not a single Heart Tree is known in Essos, so it's really really really unlikely.

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13 hours ago, The Egg said:

 

It could've been them, of course. But the Children left very distinctive signs all over Westeros and not a single Heart Tree is known in Essos, so it's really really really unlikely.

Well actually in  " The World of Ice and Fire":

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TWOIAF:

The God-Kings of Ib, before their fall, did succeed in conquering and colonizing a huge swathe of northern Essos immediately south of Ib itself, a densely wooded region that had formerly been the home of a small, shy forest folk. Some say that the Ibbenese extinguished this gentle race, whilst others believe they went into hiding in the deeper woods or fled to other lands. The Dothraki still call the great forest along the northern coast the Kingdom of the Ifequevron, the name by which they knew the vanished forest-dwellers. The fabled Sea Snake, Corlys Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was the first Westerosi to visit these woods. After his return from the Thousand Islands, he wrote of carved trees, haunted grottoes, and strange silences. A later traveler, the merchant-adventurer Bryan of Oldtown, captain of the cog Spearshaker, provided an account of his own journey across the Shivering Sea. He reported that the Dothraki name for the lost people meant "those who walk in the woods.

These sound a LOT like the CoTF. So there were indeed CoTF or their relatives in Essos.

And Mossovy is a land of skinchangers. CoTF are skin changers. Maybe the skinchangers in Mossovy are the CotF

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20 hours ago, hiemal said:

On the one hand I like this idea because it is economical, it whittles down the number of supernatural players on the field.

On the other hand, I love H.P. 's craft. Although the chill-factor would be preserved if legends of Deep Ones are just that, I confess that at some level I just want them to be real.

Indeed: one of the things I really didn't like about the Deep Ones was the fact they seemed unecessary, and to add in yet another evil supernatural race this late in the series with so little build-up would seem like cheap and lazy to me.

 

19 hours ago, The Egg said:

To answer to OP, do we really need the CotF to flood a land?

We know that in much more recent times the Rhoynar had water magic and were able to flood cities... why should we presume that only the Children were powerful enough to set such a catastrophe in motion?

It could've been them, of course. But the Children left very distinctive signs all over Westeros and not a single Heart Tree is known in Essos, so it's really really really unlikely.

Human-wielded magic does seem to have limitations in the books so far, which would almost certainly preclude them from sinking landmasses as large as the Thousand Island area would have been. The Children have a history with breaking up land into islands, and although magic seems to have been both more prevalent and more powerful in ancient times, it still seems to fit better with the Children being the 'ones who dunnit'.

As I said above, my personal theory is that the Children didn't actually mean to flood the Thousand Island region; it was just a side effect of their raising of the sea level to break the Arm of Dorne (a link to a preliminary version of my theory is in my signature).

 

5 hours ago, Falcon2908 said:

Well actually in  " The World of Ice and Fire":

These sound a LOT like the CoTF. So there were indeed CoTF or their relatives in Essos.

And Mossovy is a land of skinchangers. CoTF are skin changers. Maybe the skinchangers in Mossovy are the CotF

I've never seen a satisfactory explanation for the Ifeqevron, but I think it may well have some thing to do with the Ibbenese. There are forests on Ib, and its ships routinely travel to the Braavosi area. It is not inconcievable that the Children encountered some Ibbenese sailors in Westeros, and went with them back to Ib, where they travelled south and settled in the deep forests that were to the south of Ib (according to my theory this was before Ib became and island).

Alternatively, some Children crossed the Narrow sea, then much narrower and possible landlocked, and were swept up by the Hairy Men, and made there way to the Ifeqevron forests from there.

I'm not sure we'll ever find out the real truth, but I really hope we do!

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19 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Indeed: one of the things I really didn't like about the Deep Ones was the fact they seemed unecessary, and to add in yet another evil supernatural race this late in the series with so little build-up would seem like cheap and lazy to me.

 

Human-wielded magic does seem to have limitations in the books so far, which would almost certainly preclude them from sinking landmasses as large as the Thousand Island area would have been. The Children have a history with breaking up land into islands, and although magic seems to have been both more prevalent and more powerful in ancient times, it still seems to fit better with the Children being the 'ones who dunnit'.

As I said above, my personal theory is that the Children didn't actually mean to flood the Thousand Island region; it was just a side effect of their raising of the sea level to break the Arm of Dorne (a link to a preliminary version of my theory is in my signature).

 

I've never seen a satisfactory explanation for the Ifeqevron, but I think it may well have some thing to do with the Ibbenese. There are forests on Ib, and its ships routinely travel to the Braavosi area. It is not inconcievable that the Children encountered some Ibbenese sailors in Westeros, and went with them back to Ib, where they travelled south and settled in the deep forests that were to the south of Ib (according to my theory this was before Ib became and island).

Alternatively, some Children crossed the Narrow sea, then much narrower and possible landlocked, and were swept up by the Hairy Men, and made there way to the Ifeqevron forests from there.

I'm not sure we'll ever find out the real truth, but I really hope we do!

  1. Bloodraven is human, still he's arguably the most powerful magic being in the entire series, so no, I can't see all those limitations in human magic more than in any other race's. The Others' undead are even more mindless than the Red Priests' ones and we don't have all that many evidences of more powerful unhuman magic beside the breaking of Dorne's Arm, and since we don't know how it happened and how powerful were men at the time
  2. Even if we assume human couldn't make such a disaster, there are other magical creature in Westeros and we can't presume only the CotF had the power to make such a disaster
  3. The problem is not the explanation for the Ifeqevron, the problem are the Ifeqevron themselves! TWOIAF is written from the POV of a man who never left Westeros, so it could very well be that this Ifeqevron never really existed, or were anything like what we're told. Besides, they are only another race in a very distant land, so any explanation would only take imagination potential without having any slightest relevance with the story.

So, obviously, you can theorize anything you like, but the similarities between the CotF and the Ifeqevron are no more than those with many other races in many other fantasy series, with the Ifeqevron being only vaguely outlined in TWOIAF and so mostly uncharacterized.
Could it be they were the CotF's Essos relatives? Of course. But they could've been as distant to them as Valyrians were from First Men, which is much more likely than actually having a thousand CotF travel by boat (did they even have boats?) to Ib and then going South. But they could also be a completely unrelated race put there only to state that there was magic - or at least intelligent life - in Essos even beyond the realms of men until a not so distant past, as it was for Westeros, since we've only met human civilizations in that continent.

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On 11/02/2016 at 1:42 PM, The Egg said:
  1. Bloodraven is human, still he's arguably the most powerful magic being in the entire series, so no, I can't see all those limitations in human magic more than in any other race's. The Others' undead are even more mindless than the Red Priests' ones and we don't have all that many evidences of more powerful unhuman magic beside the breaking of Dorne's Arm, and since we don't know how it happened and how powerful were men at the time
  2. Even if we assume human couldn't make such a disaster, there are other magical creature in Westeros and we can't presume only the CotF had the power to make such a disaster
  3. The problem is not the explanation for the Ifeqevron, the problem are the Ifeqevron themselves! TWOIAF is written from the POV of a man who never left Westeros, so it could very well be that this Ifeqevron never really existed, or were anything like what we're told. Besides, they are only another race in a very distant land, so any explanation would only take imagination potential without having any slightest relevance with the story.

So, obviously, you can theorize anything you like, but the similarities between the CotF and the Ifeqevron are no more than those with many other races in many other fantasy series, with the Ifeqevron being only vaguely outlined in TWOIAF and so mostly uncharacterized.
Could it be they were the CotF's Essos relatives? Of course. But they could've been as distant to them as Valyrians were from First Men, which is much more likely than actually having a thousand CotF travel by boat (did they even have boats?) to Ib and then going South. But they could also be a completely unrelated race put there only to state that there was magic - or at least intelligent life - in Essos even beyond the realms of men until a not so distant past, as it was for Westeros, since we've only met human civilizations in that continent.

  1. Based on the Valyrians being the most powerful confirmed magic-using civilisation, and yet not resorting to these continent-breaking powers at any point when it would have certainly been useful for them (the wars with Ghis and the Rhoynish, for instance), seems to show the limitations of human magic. To be sure, my argument here is based more on the Children's history with breaking landmasses than human limitations. As for Bloodraven, he derives much of his power from the same source as the Children do, and we don't know the full extent of his relationship with them yet.
  2. IIRC, the giants never exhibit magical characteristics, which makes me think you're talking about the Others. Yet why would the Others, or any other race that we know of, including humans, wish to shatter the Thousand Islands? I truly believe that the best explanation is that the Children induced a sudden sea-level rise.
  3. Well, yes, but I doubt that we'd be given this clue as to another, Children-like species or sub-species, and then for them to not exist at all. All we have to work with is scant knowledge of their appearances and customs (carved trees, etc), which seem familiar to the Children.
  • They could indeed be the Children's Essosi relatives, just as the Valyrians are some of the First Men's Essosi relatives. However, that begs the question of why there are no reports of Children-like species between Westeros and the Ib-area.
  • My idea about the migration by boat was talking about some Children utilising Ibbenesse ships as they made their way across the Shivering Sea. No, I don't think it's very likely either.
  • I do think it's unlikely that the Ifeqevron and the Children are completely unrelated, given their above similarities.
  • Only human so far, but I've a sneaking suspicion there's more to see in the Shadowlands...

Bottom line is, anything I or anyone else can offer on the connections between the Children and Ifeqevron is conjecture at best, tinfoil at worst.

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On 12/2/2016 at 7:58 PM, Maester of Valyria said:

Bottom line is, anything I or anyone else can offer on the connections between the Children and Ifeqevron is conjecture at best, tinfoil at worst.

Which was, actually, what I was saying with my whole post ;)
We can think about connections, but there's absolutely nothing to prove that, and I don't think they'll ever be mentioned again...

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On 14/02/2016 at 8:32 PM, The Egg said:

Which was, actually, what I was saying with my whole post ;)
We can think about connections, but there's absolutely nothing to prove that, and I don't think they'll ever be mentioned again...

I know, it's depressing isn't it?

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