Why the Catelyn hate?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Ned is still alive, Bran's ability to marriage is compromised and the Blackfish is old. And really, who in their right mind might opt for Robb instead of Renly, for examble, so that it's so crusial for Robb to stay free? 

They were trying to strike a deal with both Renly and Stannis, they were starting to war and if they were going to win they wer going to need more allies.

What if Stannis had said, kneel to me and Robb marries Shireen? What if Renly would have wanted Robb to marry into the Tyrells? What if they defeat Tywin/ Joffery and Robb needs to marry Myrcella to legitimize his rule OR to get peace with the Lannisters?

There are a ton of outcomes that were possible and would have made more sense than 4k men and a bridge.

Robb and his men had out thought every other obstacle, maybe they could have out thought this one to. Or maybe a better negotiator could have gotten a better deal.

[kimim]

12 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Again, short sighted. IF they were going to win, Robb does not finish an untested, warrior with no allies or leadership skills.

And they are not going to win with just the Freys being their main ally.

It is like cutting off you legs as a 10 year old because they are not long enough yet and replacing them with sticks becasue they are a little bit longer. Your legs are going to grow and the sticks are not.

There is no guarantee at all that Robb is going to win. He is a fifteen year old. He is going against the likes of Jaime and Tywin. Cat asks Frey, who is notorious for being cautious, to side against Tywin Lannister and Jaime, while the Lannisters are in the region...and the ever-cautious Frey accepts. It's ridiculous and unbelievable that he accepts, and asks for merely a marriage alliance.

The Frey alliance is life or death for the Northerners. They will not win with just the Freys as their main ally, but they will, simply, lose if Freys do not allow them to use the bridge. Frey has them by the balls, and Frey knows it, they know it.

Cat jumps on Frey's offer, as she should. btw, Edmure doesn't enter the discussion at this point, as 1. Cat doesn't have the right to make marriage deals for him, and even if she did, she could give no guarantee that he would accept. Frey knows that. 2. Edmure is besieged by the Lannisters. Edmure isn't happening. Robb needs that passage, and Robb is available. Robb it is.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Well she did 'baulk' as she clearly negotiated the best price possible. She could not have got a better price from Walder.

Both spellings are fine

balk

 

verb

verb: baulk; 3rd person present: baulks; past tense: baulked; past participle: baulked; gerund or present participle: baulking; verb: balk; 3rd person present: balks; past tense: balked; past participle: balked; gerund or present participle: balking

1. 1.

   hesitate or be unwilling to accept an idea or undertaking.

    

[David Selig]

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Cat didn't balk at the marriage proposal, because as a women she never had a choice in the marriage so it did not phase her that Robb would not either.

So was Robb a woman too? He didn't balk either. And noblemen don't choose their brides either unless their father had died quite young.

In fact IIRC nobody in-story ever criticizes the deal.

Quote

What if Stannis had said, kneel to me and Robb marries Shireen? What if Renly would have wanted Robb to marry into the Tyrells? What if they defeat Tywin/ Joffery and Robb needs to marry Myrcella to legitimize his rule OR to get peace with the Lannisters?

What if they refuse the deal, Tywin crushes them on the next day and Robb and Cat get killed? That's way more likely.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Both spellings are fine

balk

 

verb

verb: baulk; 3rd person present: baulks; past tense: baulked; past participle: baulked; gerund or present participle: baulking; verb: balk; 3rd person present: balks; past tense: balked; past participle: balked; gerund or present participle: balking

1. 1.

   hesitate or be unwilling to accept an idea or undertaking.

    

I wasn't highlighting the spelling but the word itself. There is no evidence that she baulked at the negotiation. She seemed to be the one playing Walder, feeding on his insecurities.

[WSmith84]

27 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

And she could have set it up for Edmure and then asked her brother to agree, just like they did later.

Or if they have concerns about Edmure not being rescued, they could make the marriage for the Heir of Riverrun (Blackfish) is Edmure died.

And if Edmure says no? He's not bound to honour his sister's agreement. He only agreed to the match later (and note, even Robb couldn't force him to do it) to make up for his mistake. And the Blackfish is famous for falling out with his brother over an arranged marriage; you think any house is going to agree to a prospective marriage pact with the Blackfish? Walder could risk all for nothing, and this time he can't complain because neither Edmure nor Hoster agreed to the deal.

Walder Frey had Robb by the balls at this point. If Robb didn't cross, his plan would fail and his father would likely die. Walder could easily have sided with the winning Lannisters and prevented Robb from crossing. Cat managed to convince him to rebel against the throne, to fight against Tywin Lannister and back the 15 year-old Robb who had never fought a battle before.

Cat may have made mistakes, but she did a bloody marvelous job negotiating with Walder Frey.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

4 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

They were trying to strike a deal with both Renly and Stannis, they were starting to war and if they were going to win they wer going to need more allies.

What if Stannis had said, kneel to me and Robb marries Shireen? What if Renly would have wanted Robb to marry into the Tyrells? What if they defeat Tywin/ Joffery and Robb needs to marry Myrcella to legitimize his rule OR to get peace with the Lannisters?

There are a ton of outcomes that were possible and would have made more sense than 4k men and a bridge.

Robb and his men had out thought every other obstacle, maybe they could have out thought this one to. Or maybe a better negotiator could have gotten a better deal.

It's not "a bridge". It's THE bridge. Without it, NONE of the hypothetical scenarios you mention would not even be imaginable. And no, if they wanted to make a political alliance with Robb's fraction --AFTER he had proved himself worthy. for which, lest we forget, passing the damn bridge is a prerequisite-- Robb being taken would not be the obstacle. There would be alternatives to seal the deal.

Nobody ever complains about it except for some of Catelyn's detractors for incomprehensible, really, reasons. It was the best deal anyone could strike by all logic.

[Maxxine]

22 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I dont blame Cat because the marriage fell apart, she could not have known that. I blame her because she negotiated a bad deal.

And she could have set it up for Edmure and then asked her brother to agree, just like they did later.

Or if they have concerns about Edmure not being rescued, they could make the marriage for the Heir of Riverrun (Blackfish) is Edmure died.

 

Robb was more important because he was the leader of the war. Did they not expect for this war to escalate before it ended?

Cat did not look at the long term, if they won then what? Either Robb was going to be King, they made an alliance with another region who would be come King or the North becomes independent and then Robb is King in the North.

Any of those would most likely require that Robb marry some house that was far more important that the Freys.

Again, short sighted. IF they were going to win, Robb does not finish an untested, warrior with no allies or leadership skills.

And they are not going to win with just the Freys being their main ally.

It is like cutting off you legs as a 10 year old because they are not long enough yet and replacing them with sticks becasue they are a little bit longer. Your legs are going to grow and the sticks are not.

Considering Catelyn had absolutely no leverage she made the best deal she could. Robb needed to cross and couldn't take the castle by storm and did not have the time for siege. Did Frey "win" the negotiation yes, but with leverage he had there was no getting around that. Robb had no alternatives. Catelyn couldn't have offered Edmure because at the time Riverrun was lost and Edmure was captured and Walder Frey knew this. Edmure had no value at that point. Plus at that point, Edmure and Robb are pretty much equal. They were both lords (or on their way to being a lord sine Hoster had not died yet) at this point. I don't think Robb being a king is even contemplated at this point. Frey was going to marry his daughter to a lord paramount  regardless of if it was Robb or Edmure so why would Edmure be some better deal considering the state of things when she made the deal?

[hiemal]

I suspect that because she is such a devoted wife and mother that her flaws show up more glaringly by comparison, whereas someone who is more completely dark of gray might be viewed more charitably, particularly if they are seen as on a redemptive journey.

Her reckless seizing of Tyrion and the chaos it brought about and her cold treatment of Jon are neither one without mitigating factors, but the consequences for both are plain and severe so that people's sympathies towards characters impacted might lead to a harsher judgement than may be warranted.

 

[lidsa]

35 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Robb and his men had out thought every other obstacle

...right, that's why they were standing in front of a bridge they didn't have access to. Northmen stronk!

Anyway, I love Cat for the way she didn't cave to Ned wrt Jon (even though what she said at Bran's bedside, not just to Jon but to Robb and Maester Luwin as well, was uncalled for).

Quote

Why the Catelyn hate?

In my experience it's usually people misinterpreting her or judging her in hindsight. No blame though, I also do that at times (looking at you Robb, Sansa, and Tyrion, you idiots).

[The Wolves]

I don't hate Catelyn I just dislike her. 

But I also don't dislike her because of her mistakes, I just don't like her personality it's a very off putting one. 

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Going to try to keep this as brief as possible. 

My problem with Cat is not that she makes mistakes or has bad judgment. It's the unending, choking cloud of arrogance and superiority that she walks around with, like Pigpen in the Peanuts cartoons. 

If I only had a dragon for every time she thinks "I'll show them what a Tully/ Stark/ mother/ woman/ lady/ northerner/ riverlander/ wife of Ned Stark/ mother of Robb Stark/ daughter of Hoster Tully/ redhead can do!"; plus all the times I read the phrase "Cat said sharply," I could take off the rest of the year at least. She believes, every bit as much as Cersei does, that she and her people are better than everyone else, and that this confers upon her a carte blanche to make decisions and take actions she is not qualified and has no right to make, to almost the same extent that Cersei does so.

It only surprises me that more people don't see the vast similarities between Cat and Cersei.  

ETA: Although it would be silly to truly take opinions on a forum personally, I do have to say on behalf of the wives and mothers, that being a loving and devoted wife and mother does not equate to behaving the way Cat does. 

[shizett]

I dislike Cat for many reasons, but reading through Cat's reread and some comments here, I have a question:

When Cat tells Jon, "it should have been you", do you understand this line as: "I hate you, it should have been you instead of my son" or "it should have been you because you have no mother to be so broken about your fall"? 

I read it as the latter, and I find it much worse than the first, that whole encounter is about how broken Cat is, not Bran. If the latter, how would grief excuse that?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

9 minutes ago, shizett said:

I dislike Cat for many reasons, but reading through Cat's reread and some comments here, I have a question:

When Cat tells Jon, "it should have been you", do you understand this line as: "I hate you, it should have been you instead of my son" or "it should have been you because you have no mother to be so broken about your fall"? 

I read it as the latter, and I find it much worse than the first, that whole encounter is about how broken Cat is, not Bran. If the latter, how would grief excuse that?

You read too much into it, I think.

This quote "it should have been you" is also used by Sansa [to Arya, it should have been you instead of Lady] and by Corlys Velaryon [to Rhaenyra, grieving for his wife's death at war]. All three instances have in common that it is said by a person in extreme distress, to a person who does not deserve it. It means what it means, the same in all three. Whether it's enough to "excuse" or, at least, to make "understandable" this behaviour, that's up to each reader.

[shizett]

3 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

You read too much into it, I think.

This quote "it should have been you" is also used by Sansa [to Arya, it should have been you instead of Lady] and by Corlys Velaryon [to Rhaenyra, grieving for his wife's death at war]. All three instances have in common that it is said by a person in extreme distress, to a person who does not deserve it. It means what it means, the same in all three. Whether it's enough to "excuse" or, at least, to make "understandable" this behaviour, that's up to each reader.

Thanks for the explanation.

I think this is one of the things I really disliked about Cat in her relationship with Jon, I felt like it is not just that Cat does not like him or even pity him, but holds his being motherless against him (if that makes any sense).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

Going to try to keep this as brief as possible. 

My problem with Cat is not that she makes mistakes or has bad judgment. It's the unending, choking cloud of arrogance and superiority that she walks around with, like Pigpen in the Peanuts cartoons.

 

Blatantly not true.

"I have failed Robb as I failed Ned, Catelyn thought. "My lord," she announced. "If you are set on battle, my purpose here is done. I ask your leave to return to Riverrun."

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"and yet Tyrion betrayed no hint of fear. Could I be wrong? Catelyn wondered, not for the first time. Could he be innocent after all, of Bran and Jon Arryn and all the rest? And if he was, what did that make her? Six men had died to bring him here."

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"Be that as it may." She was suddenly weary. Perhaps she was wrong to oppose him. Perhaps it was a splendid plan, and her misgivings only a woman's fears. She wished Ned were here, or her uncle Brynden, or . . . "Have you asked Father about this?"

 

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"Wagering on you when you tilted against the Knight of Flowers." Yet when she heard her own words Catelyn knew she had gotten it wrong.

 

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His words rang against Catelyn's ears, harsh and cruel as the pounding of a war drum. Her throat was dry as bone. I did this. These two boys died so my daughters might live.

She actually regularly has doubts about her actions and regrets about them. I have seen this complaint about Cat before and it really does not stand up to her thoughts in the books. She is far form being superior but clearly she has to have faith in the advice she gives as she is just a woman and the men in her world are not going to take advice from a woman who seems unsure herself.

[PrinceThatWasPromised]

Cat's hardly a great mother.. She was never able to bring herself to love/care for her children's sibling. She abandons caring for her youngest child when another child is injured. She then left her two youngest without any family.. She never made any true attempt to return to them even after hearing Bran had woken up. She didn't trust her son/king enough to make the correct decision and directly undermined them. Making a big emotional show of love is hardly a good replacement for caring and doing the little things everyday for the people you care about. 

[dornishdame]

Catelyn.......one character guaranteed to start an argument! On balance, I would not say I am a fan of Catelyn - and even less so of Lady Stoneheart, though I tend to consider the two characters separately.

I would say that the love she has for her family and her husband is the main point in her favor. Family, duty, honor. Catelyn certainly fights for her family.....and is a dutiful daughter. 

When the last of Edmure's foot had shuffled under the portcullis, Brienne asked, "What shall we do now, my lady?"

"Our duty." Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father had told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty. (Catelyn VI in Clash)

Outside of Ned and her family, however, I always find her a bit of a cold fish (pun absolutely intended!) without quite knowing why. Hmmm. As a wife, mother and Lady Stark, there is not actually much to fault in her. She is a good mother to her children and tries to do the best by them. We all make mistakes. And the decisions that Catelyn has to take - such as when she has to go south to Ned and leave Bran while he is ill - fits in with the theme of the human heart in conflict. Whatever she decided, it would be wrong. 

As I said above, however, on balance I am not a Catelyn fan. To join in the Jon portion of the debate.......

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said.

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

It was a long walk down to the yard. (Jon II in Thrones)

I think that GRRM has spoken about the Jon-Cat relationship in an SSM before. Although Catelyn does not beat Jon, she neglects the boy that is, essentially, her step-son. By the time that the above scene takes place, Jon and Catelyn have been living at Winterfell together for almost a decade and a half. He has been raised alongside her own children, apparently normally shares her table at mealtimes. And in all that time, she has never called him by his name. I fully accept that this problem is not entirely of Cat's making - Ned should have told her the truth a long, long time ago - but she does not at least make an effort to make the best of things. Although Jon is a daily reminder of Ned's supposed infidelity, Cat has had more than enough time to get used to the situation and accept that Jon is part of Winterfell life. 

[princess_snow]

8 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Catelyn.......one character guaranteed to start an argument! On balance, I would not say I am a fan of Catelyn - and even less so of Lady Stoneheart, though I tend to consider the two characters separately.

I would say that the love she has for her family and her husband is the main point in her favor. Family, duty, honor. Catelyn certainly fights for her family.....and is a dutiful daughter. 

When the last of Edmure's foot had shuffled under the portcullis, Brienne asked, "What shall we do now, my lady?"

"Our duty." Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father had told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty. (Catelyn VI in Clash)

Outside of Ned and her family, however, I always find her a bit of a cold fish (pun absolutely intended!) without quite knowing why. Hmmm. As a wife, mother and Lady Stark, there is not actually much to fault in her. She is a good mother to her children and tries to do the best by them. We all make mistakes. And the decisions that Catelyn has to take - such as when she has to go south to Ned and leave Bran while he is ill - fits in with the theme of the human heart in conflict. Whatever she decided, it would be wrong. 

As I said above, however, on balance I am not a Catelyn fan. To join in the Jon portion of the debate.......

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said.

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

It was a long walk down to the yard. (Jon II in Thrones)

I think that GRRM has spoken about the Jon-Cat relationship in an SSM before. Although Catelyn does not beat Jon, she neglects the boy that is, essentially, her step-son. By the time that the above scene takes place, Jon and Catelyn have been living at Winterfell together for almost a decade and a half. He has been raised alongside her own children, apparently normally shares her table at mealtimes. And in all that time, she has never called him by his name. I fully accept that this problem is not entirely of Cat's making - Ned should have told her the truth a long, long time ago - but she does not at least make an effort to make the best of things. Although Jon is a daily reminder of Ned's supposed infidelity, Cat has had more than enough time to get used to the situation and accept that Jon is part of Winterfell life. 

This. This is why I am not a fan of Cat. Especially your last line.  

[lidsa]

2 hours ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

I do have to say on behalf of the wives and mothers, that being a loving and devoted wife and mother does not equate to behaving the way Cat does. 

Although I am neither, I'm going to say on behalf of wives and mothers that "wives and mothers" are actually all individuals, with unique thoughts, feelings and behaviours.