Why the Catelyn hate?

[Raven]

She's one of my favorite characters. Her undevoted love for her children make me like her very much. In the end she even acquires some sort of immortality, which is pretty damn cool, but very sad at the same time.

My favorite characters in the series are Bran, Viserys, Catelyn, Brienne, Osha, Tyrion, Davos, Samwell and I suppose Jon and Eddard too. They're all way more exciting than mary sue characters like Daenarys and Arya. Though I have to admit reading Arya's chapters is very exciting because of the storyline and plot. However, that doesn't take away the fact that she's somewhat of a mary sue character. I realize the definition of mary sue and gary stu can't really be applied to ASOIAF characters, but you have to compare their storylines to the others in the book series and it's pretty clear that Daenarys and Arya are handed things to them like christmas. Jon is the same, but I would say him being a brother of the knight's watch makes up for it, you know, with all the no wife and no children and serving until you die, etc. Having dragons and magical assassin abilities seems soothing compared to that. Sansa is a character I find boring to read. She's as empty a character as you can find. What purpose does she fill in the series besides just 'being there'? 

There's enough reason to dislike characters like Daenarys, Sansa, Theon, Cercei, Robb Stark, but Catelyn? She's done nothing but be very loyal to her children and caring for her family. Those are very good qualities if you ask me. The words of House Tully are: Family, Duty, Honor. She took Tyrion hostage thinking he had something to do with Bran falling from the tower. She freed Jaime to save her daughters. And Jaime was going to free her daughters if the circumstances allowed him to. So in the end with Jaime she made the right call. A horrible person he may be for throwing Bran from a tower, but he was intent on fulfulling his promise.

Robb Stark annoyed me very much when he didn't keep his promise with Walder Frey. That was an idiotic move.

[Dorian Martell]

Fans develop irrational hate for fictional characters in a story because they have become so emotionally attached to said story they stop remembering that every single character is the author 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

26 minutes ago, Raven said:

She's one of my favorite characters. Her undevoted love for her children make me like her very much. In the end she even acquires some sort of immortality, which is pretty damn cool, but very sad at the same time.

My favorite characters in the series are Bran, Viserys, Catelyn, Brienne, Osha, Tyrion, Davos, Samwell and I suppose Jon and Eddard too. They're all way more exciting than mary sue characters like Daenarys and Arya. Though I have to admit reading Arya's chapters is very exciting because of the storyline and plot. However, that doesn't take away the fact that she's somewhat of a mary sue character. Athough Jon seems like a gary stu too and at times I dislike reading his chapters, he's good to read too. I realize the definition of mary sue and gary stu can't really be applied to ASOIAF characters, but you have to compare their storylines to the others in the book series and it's pretty clear that Daenarys and Arya are handed things to them like christmas. Jon is the same, but I would say him being a brother of the knight's watch makes up for it, you know, with all the no wife and no children and serving until you die, etc. Having dragons and magical assassin abilities seems soothing compared to that. Nevertheless, I find Jon's chapters boring to be honest. Another character I find boring to read is Sansa. She's as empty a character as you can find. What purpose does she fill in the series besides just 'being there'? 

There's enough reason to dislike characters like Daenarys, Sansa, Theon, Cercei, Robb Stark, but Catelyn? She's done nothing but be very loyal to her children and caring for her family. Those are very good qualities if you ask me. The words of House Tully are: Family, Duty, Honor. She took Tyrion hostage thinking he had something to do with Bran falling from the tower. She freed Jaime out to save her daughters. And Jaime was going to free her daughters, if the circumstances allowed him. So in the end with Jaime she made the right call. A twat he may be for throwing Bran from a tower, but he was intent on fulfulling his promise.

Robb Stark annoyed me very much when he didn't keep his promise with Walder Frey. That was an idiotic move.

She has done nothing except for acting before she thinks, starting a war, betraying her son, making bad deals on behalf of her son and her general "I am better than you" attitude?

No, she is great.

[Knight Of Winter]

You've just opened s huge can of worms Catelyn is perhaps the most divisive character in fandom, with her detractors restlessly bashing her are her fans vigorously defending her. It's pretty rare for a Catelyn debate to last under 100 posts. 

[The Mountain That Flies]

People tend to have a harder time empathizing with characters whose motivations are more distant from their own mental state.

Freeing Jaime was about protecting her kids, and if you don't have kids that can seem like stupid rational. Taking Tyrion hostage is seen as dumb because we have the luxury of being inside Tyrion's head, to say nothing of hindsight regarding Littlefinger.

Overall, a lot of fan preferences aren't based in logical thinking but emotional response. The "logic" comes later as you try and find evidence to support your preferences.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

To be honest, maybe it's because other readers apply to Catelyn the same sort of reading that you reserve for other characters.

 

Btw, Cat is my favourite character by far.

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

Run a search. Cat is one of the most discussed characters of the series and is extremely controversial.  Take a look at Nyrhex's post in this thread - 

I think they put it very well.  I find Cat extremely stupid and smug.  I'm most definitely not a fan. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

26 minutes ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

People tend to have a harder time empathizing with characters whose motivations are more distant from their own mental state.

Freeing Jaime was about protecting her kids, and if you don't have kids that can seem like stupid rational. Taking Tyrion hostage is seen as dumb because we have the luxury of being inside Tyrion's head, to say nothing of hindsight regarding Littlefinger.

Overall, a lot of fan preferences aren't based in logical thinking but emotional response. The "logic" comes later as you try and find evidence to support your preferences.

Her trusting LF isn't about hindsight, she directly tells Ned he can't trust Robert because he hasn't seen him in a long time, then proceeds to trust LF, who she hasn't seen in a longer time, and the last time she did see him did not go well, for LF that is.

 

I won't go around bashing Catlyn, but I won't defend her actions either.  She did some pretty stupid things. 

27 minutes ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

People tend to have a harder time empathizing with characters whose motivations are more distant from their own mental state.

Freeing Jaime was about protecting her kids, and if you don't have kids that can seem like stupid rational. Taking Tyrion hostage is seen as dumb because we have the luxury of being inside Tyrion's head, to say nothing of hindsight regarding Littlefinger.

Overall, a lot of fan preferences aren't based in logical thinking but emotional response. The "logic" comes later as you try and find evidence to support your preferences.

It's not that I can't empathize with someone wanting to protect their kids, it's that in no way was releasing Jaime protecting her kids, it in fact endangered Robb, and would never in any world have led to the release of Sansa and or Arya.

[redtree]

I'm neutral (though slightly negative) toward Catelyn but poor Cat gets a lot of unfair hate considering her treatment toward Jon Snow. She has never prevented Jon to get the same education and arms training or ever tried to poison or physically beat Jon, and those were more than enough. Ned put her in a very difficult shituation and people expect her to act like Mother Theresa, it's Ned's fault not Cat's

[Maxxine]

 

While I understand some things Catelyn does I can't stand her. 1) The way she treats Jon Snow. I understand it has to hurt for your husband to bring home a bastard. But telling a 14 year old who just wants to make sure his brother is ok that you essentially wish he were dead is too far. Eventually logic has to take over for emotion and you have to realize that it's not his fault. Maybe not treat him as a son but at least treat him with some common human decency. 2) She does have this "I'm better than you" or "I know more than you so you should always listen to me" attitude. She definitely looks down on people. 3) The whole I'm going to leave my crippled 7 year old son and 3 year old son home while I travel around with my 15 year old son whose a king and surrounded by warriors was a terrible decision. I didn't mind her leaving to KL initially but making the conscious not to return was ridiculous especially for someone who claims to love her kids so much. 4) Taking Tyrion was just dumb. What did she really think was going to happen? She thought she was be able to capture him, question him, and kill him and no one was going to say anything.

While I dislike her I'll give her credit for some good thing she did do. The Frey deal was a good ones and the suggestion of a great council for Renly, Stannis, & Robb was a great idea had she gotten them to listen. I also somewhat gives her pass for letting Jaime go. Yeah it was stupid, but I can imagine what the grief of finding out two of your children are "dead," one might be dead because no one has heard her, and the other one is hostage can make you do.

I know this thread is about Cat, but I have to defend my two favorite characters since the OP brought it up. Other than Dany having this random epiphany about how to hatch dragons, neither her or Arya have been gifted anything imo. Dany had an abusive brother, was sold off to a warlord, lost that warlord once she fell in love with him, and lost her child. She may or may not be able to control her dragons (even though I do believe at this point her and Drogon have a bond and controlling him won't be an issue). Arya has been separated from her family for almost two years and everytime she think she's close to finding them something happens. And she has not been gifted magic assassin powers. She has to learn it and she's taking the time to learn and struggling. It's not like she just woke up one day and was a FM.

[OldGimletEye]

I think Cat gets way too much shit. I, generally, have a positive attitude towards her. Yes, she makes some mistakes, but her "crimes" are not really more eggregious than some of the other characters in the book. While she does some stuff I don't like, I think overall she is a decent person.

Part of the reason she gets crap is because of her relationship with Jon. But, in my view, it's possible to have sympathy for both of them. Both were put in a pretty difficult situation.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

21 minutes ago, redtree said:

I'm neutral (though slightly negative) toward Catelyn but poor Cat gets a lot of unfair hate considering her treatment toward Jon Snow. She has never prevented Jon to get the same education and arms training or ever tried to poison or physically beat Jon, and those were more than enough. Ned put her in a very difficult shituation and people expect her to act like Mother Theresa, it's Ned's fault not Cat's

I hate Cat... HATE.

But I dont hold her treatment of Jon against her. As far as Cat knows, Jon is a walking embodiment of Ned's unfaithfulness that lives in her home and Jon could be a threat to her children's inheritance.

 

That is Ned's fault (an Rhaegar and Lyanna's) not Cats.

 

[Cas Stark]

I don't get it.  I Just Don't Get It.

I have seen all of the reasons why people "hate" Cat, and they all seem to fall short to me.  I find it inexplicable, the level of dislike is out of all proportion to her faults and bad decisions.  

[redtree]

3 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I hate Cat... HATE.

But I dont hold her treatment of Jon against her. As far as Cat knows, Jon is a walking embodiment of Ned's unfaithfulness that lives in her home and Jon could be a threat to her children's inheritance.

That is Ned's fault (an Rhaegar and Lyanna's) not Cats.

Exactly, the problem is not Jon but Jon's existence in Winterfell which is a wildly unpopular choice by Ned on how to raise an out of wedlock child. Cat said herself she wouldn't have cared if Ned had dozens of bastard as long as they are outside Winterfell

[HouseFossoway]

I think that a lot of the hate that goes to Catelyn is similar to the hate that Skyler White got in Breaking Bad. Even though Catelyn is very far from the worst/stupidest/most-arrogant person in the series, Catelyn as a character gets more hate for it because people in real life similar to Catelyn always seem to be well liked despite their flaws.

I find it very strange whenever someone says that they dislike Catelyn but they do like Jaime, since they share a lot of the same flaws (arrogance, rash and stupid decision making, treatment of people they view as beneath them, etc.). They also share a lot of similar good qualities (Seeing past Brienne's outward appearance, devotion to family, etc.).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

She made two mistakes, both were emotionally charged situations were common sense briefly escaped her. It is clear that making quick decisions is not her forte (though I'm not sure that is true for any of the adult Starks).

However she also made many good observations and the Stark/Tully faction would not be nearly in so bad of a situation had they listened to her more often. She really should have packed off Robb to Winterfell when she met him at Moat Cailin and took control herself.

[Raisin' Bran]

9 minutes ago, redtree said:

I'm neutral (though slightly negative) toward Catelyn but poor Cat gets a lot of unfair hate considering her treatment toward Jon Snow. She has never prevented Jon to get the same education and arms training or ever tried to poison or physically beat Jon, and those were more than enough. Ned put her in a very difficult shituation and people expect her to act like Mother Theresa, it's Ned's fault not Cat's

I actually kind of like Cat. But if this is the best you can do to defend her, I would not consider this neutral at all. I for one, never expected her to be Mother Theresa. She is the Lady of the North. She did her best at tempering her feelings towards Jon and allowing what Ned wanted for Jon. If she had beaten Jon or poisoned him, she would probably be the most hated person on the forums. She acted on her emotions a lot, but who hasn't.

I think what a lot of people like about her is how people can relate to her. Very level-headed when allowed time to think in a relatively stress-free environment, but has a harder time being Mr. Spock in times of crisis. If she always did the smartest thing, no matter the situation, people would think she is a Mary Sue and also have no sympathy for her.

[redtree]

12 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

I actually kind of like Cat. But if this is the best you can do to defend her, I would not consider this neutral at all. I for one, never expected her to be Mother Theresa. She is the Lady of the North. She did her best at tempering her feelings towards Jon and allowing what Ned wanted for Jon. If she had beaten Jon or poisoned him, she would probably be the most hated person on the forums. She acted on her emotions a lot, but who hasn't.

I think what a lot of people like about her is how people can relate to her. Very level-headed when allowed time to think in a relatively stress-free environment, but has a harder time being Mr. Spock in times of crisis. If she always did the smartest thing, no matter the situation, people would think she is a Mary Sue and also have no sympathy for her.

No, that's the short version considering what i've read in Westerosi world about what husbands do toward their natural children and the reasons. And the Mother Theresa part, i suggest you to search and read old threads about Catelyn and Jon. The hate is strong and the standards that many put for her to be considered neutral was damn near to Saint-level

[Raisin' Bran]

3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

She made two mistakes, both were emotionally charged situations were common sense briefly escaped her. It is clear that making quick decisions is not her forte (though I'm not sure that is true for any of the adult Starks).

However she also made many good observations and the Stark/Tully faction would not be nearly in so bad of a situation had they listened to her more often. She really should have packed off Robb to Winterfell when she met him at Moat Cailin and took control herself.

I do believe that packing Robb off to Winterfell, in favor of his protection, would have been the worst decision she could have made. It favors present safety and undermines any loyalty the northern lords may have held for him.

It reminds me of when Cercei brought Joffery in from The Battle of the Blackwater, motivating mass desertion of the gold cloaks. If Robb were to go home, why should the rest of the northern host stick their neck out for House Stark, save a unfailing devotion to Ned. And once Ned loses his head, nothing prevents the rest of the host from going home.

[David Selig]

I blame Jon Snow as always. He ruins everything.