Why the Catelyn hate?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, Raisin' Bran said:

I do believe that packing Robb off to Winterfell, in favor of his protection, would have been the worst decision she could have made. It favors present safety and undermines any loyalty the northern lords may have held for him.

It reminds me of when Cercei brought Joffery in from The Battle of the Blackwater, motivating mass desertion of the gold cloaks. If Robb were to go home, why should the rest of the northern host stick their neck out for House Stark, save a unfailing devotion to Ned. And once Ned loses his head, nothing prevents the rest of the host from going home.

Completely agree, Cat should have gone back to Winterfell not Robb.

 

Cat made 3 major mistakes: Taking Tyrion, Negotiating Robb's marriage with Freys and betraying Robb and releasing Jaime.

Robb made 2 major mistakes, Sending Theon to Pyke (he should have known that Theon would be weak to his father) and accepting the King of the North title.

[David Selig]

BTW, I really don't get this forum's obsession in ranking the characters based on how many mistakes they make. It's a novel, not a sporting competition. When they make mistakes, it usually makes for more interesting reading and more chances for character development.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Raisin' Bran said:

I do believe that packing Robb off to Winterfell, in favor of his protection, would have been the worst decision she could have made.

It was hardly the worst decision, as Robb would have lived and Winterfell not been destroyed.

1 minute ago, Raisin' Bran said:

 

It favors present safety and undermines any loyalty the northern lords may have held for him.

Losing the capital and the Starks home also had an adverse effect on Northern loyalty.

1 minute ago, Raisin' Bran said:

It reminds me of when Cercei brought Joffery in from The Battle of the Blackwater, motivating mass desertion of the gold cloaks. If Robb were to go home, why should the rest of the northern host stick their neck out for House Stark, save a unfailing devotion to Ned. And once Ned loses his head, nothing prevents the rest of the host from going home.

But that is what Cat counselled at Riverrun even after Ned was executed. She counselled peace and to sit back at Winterfell. There would have been none of this King nonsence, would not have been an option with Robb at Winterfell, so it would have given the Northern and Riverland army more options such as going home after Riverrun were they could focus on preparing for Winter  or even forging an alliance, a profitable, with one of the remaining Kings.

Sure Robb's reputation might take a little hit, but he was 15 he'd recover and be safe.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Completely agree, Cat should have gone back to Winterfell not Robb.

 

Cat made 3 major mistakes: Taking Tyrion, Negotiating Robb's marriage with Freys and betraying Robb and releasing Jaime.

Robb made 2 major mistakes, Sending Theon to Pyke (he should have known that Theon would be weak to his father) and accepting the King of the North title.

The Frey alliance was not a mistake. In one move Cat brought more men to Robb's cause than any of the Northern bannermen did. Without Cat's negotiation skills Walder could have gotten a marriage alliance for far less.

 

[kimim]

3 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

I do believe that packing Robb off to Winterfell, in favor of his protection, would have been the worst decision she could have made. It favors present safety and undermines any loyalty the northern lords may have held for him.

It reminds me of when Cercei brought Joffery in from The Battle of the Blackwater, motivating mass desertion of the gold cloaks. If Robb were to go home, why should the rest of the northern host stick their neck out for House Stark, save a unfailing devotion to Ned. And once Ned loses his head, nothing prevents the rest of the host from going home.

 

Cat's tragedy is that she is a good mother. She respects her kids; she respects Robb too much to take control from him. You can see it in Bran, too. She tells him not to climb, but he doesn't take it seriously; clearly, neither mommy nor daddy will punish him horribly for breaking their rules on something like this. Same with Arya, who runs around wild, despite mommy's rules. So of course she lets Robb take the reins; she is not going to be Cersei or Lysa, and keep her kid in a state of perpetual childhood so that she can remain in power.

Sadly, unlike Cersei or Lysa, Cat is intelligent without being Tyrion-perfect, so she is someone Robb should listen to. She is right to worry about Robb accepting the crown, right to worry about Edmure going after Tywin, right to worry about sending Theon back to his family. Her narrative of Robb's war is endless doom, doom, doom...and she is right. Anyhow, I love Cat.

 

 

[Maxxine]

2 minutes ago, David Selig said:

BTW, I really don't get this forum's obsession in ranking the characters based on how many mistakes they make. It's a novel, not a sporting competition. When they make mistakes, it usually makes for more interesting reading and more chances for character development.

I was just about to make the same comment. I don't dislike Cat because she's made mistakes. If that were the measuring stick then we wouldn't like anyone in this book because they have all made stupid decisions. It's a mixture of her personality and her mistakes. If I liked her personality more I could get over her mistakes.

[Maxxine]

9 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Completely agree, Cat should have gone back to Winterfell not Robb.

 

Cat made 3 major mistakes: Taking Tyrion, Negotiating Robb's marriage with Freys and betraying Robb and releasing Jaime.

Robb made 2 major mistakes, Sending Theon to Pyke (he should have known that Theon would be weak to his father) and accepting the King of the North title.

I don't like her, but I don't think the Frey alliance was a bad move. They needed to cross and didn't have time to take the Twins. It was a necessary evil to make a marriage alliance. She couldn't have known Robb was going to be stupid and marry some random just because he slept with her.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Frey alliance was not a mistake. In one move Cat brought more men to Robb's cause than any of the Northern bannermen did. Without Cat's negotiation skills Walder could have gotten a marriage alliance for far less.

But it could have been had at less of a cost.

Robb marriage was way too valuable to give to the Freys. That should have been kept for a much bigger alliance. Robb's marriage could possibly have brought an entire region, not just the Freys and use of their bridge. Hell, Robb's marriage might have brought them peace if they defeated Tywin and he marries Myrcella... there are much better arrangements out there than to the Freys.

She should have directed the Freys to Edmure and told them that Robb's marriage was off limits. Lie to them and tell them that they are already in negotiations for Robb with another region... something.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, Maxxine said:

I don't like her, but I don't think the Frey alliance was a bad move. They needed to cross and didn't have time to take the Twins. It was a necessary evil to make a marriage alliance. She couldn't have known Robb was going to be stupid and marry some random just because he slept with her.

But that is the thing, I dont think that Robb marrying Jeyne was Robb's fault. Clearly the the family of Maggi the Frog has access to love potions and the foresight to see when a single King sleeps in their castle.

[kimim]

11 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Completely agree, Cat should have gone back to Winterfell not Robb.

 

Cat made 3 major mistakes: Taking Tyrion, Negotiating Robb's marriage with Freys and betraying Robb and releasing Jaime.

Robb made 2 major mistakes, Sending Theon to Pyke (he should have known that Theon would be weak to his father) and accepting the King of the North title.

How is negotiating Robb's marriage to the Freys a mistake? She got him such a good deal that it almost reeks of the author coming in, and handing her a massive plot gift. She got a notoriously careful man to side with a fifteen year old, untried general against Tywin Lannister. Frey opened his doors. Frey gave her 4,000 soldiers, all in return for a perfectly good marriage. It is almost ridiculously good.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, kimim said:

How is negotiating Robb's marriage to the Freys a mistake? She got him such a good deal that it almost reeks of the author coming in, and handing her a massive plot gift. She got a notoriously careful man to side with a fifteen year old, untried general against Tywin Lannister. Frey opened his doors. Frey gave her 4,000 soldiers, all in return for a perfectly good marriage. It is almost ridiculously good.

A marriage like that could deliver a whole region not just 4K men and a bridge.

[Maxxine]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

But that is the thing, I dont think that Robb marrying Jeyne was Robb's fault. Clearly the the family of Maggi the Frog has access to love potions and the foresight to see when a single King sleeps in their castle.

I actually think we've had this conversation about the love potion before. But even if it was a love potion and not Robb's fault, it's not Catelyn's fault either. She couldn't have forseen a love potion would be used on Robb thus killing the marriage alliance. Considering what she knew at the time, the Frey alliance was a good one and necessary one.

I can't believe I've somehow begun to defend Cat on here because I can't stand her. But, I don't have blind hate. I have to give credit when it's due. Lol

[thelittledragonthatcould]

9 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

But it could have been had at less of a cost.

How could it? Cat was asking Walder to rebel against the Crown (at that point in time the Reach and Stormlands was still loyal) and to make an enemy of the Hand of the King, Tywin Lannister.

He was also being asked to break another marriage alliance as his son was married to Tywin's sister, and living at the Rock. He required a better match than the sister of Tywin Lannister and that only left Robb.

That was the cost, there is no indication that it could have been less.

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Robb marriage was way too valuable to give to the Freys. That should have been kept for a much bigger alliance. Robb's marriage could possibly have brought an entire region, not just the Freys and use of their bridge.

It did bring an entire region. Without Frey support then Riverrun would have been taken and would have had to swear new promises to the Crown with hostages/wards being sent there to keep their loyalty.

Timing was an issue. Without the alliance Robb would have lost the Riverlands.

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Hell, Robb's marriage might have brought them peace if they defeated Tywin and he marries Myrcella... there are much better arrangements out there than to the Freys.

Not at the time. His options were to marry a Frey or go home.

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She should have directed the Freys to Edmure and told them that Robb's marriage was off limits. Lie to them and tell them that they are already in negotiations for Robb with another region... something.

Firstly she does not have the power to give away Edmure's hand in marriage, even when Robb was King he still had to ask.

Secondly there was no difference in Robb and Edmure's hand in marriage at the time. Both were heirs to their Lordships. Exact same value.

Your argument seems to be based on hindsight, knowing that Robb would eventually declare himself King and become a level above Edmure but at the time he was just the son of a Lord.

[Little Lark]

45 minutes ago, HouseFossoway said:

I think that a lot of the hate that goes to Catelyn is similar to the hate that Skyler White got in Breaking Bad. Even though Catelyn is very far from the worst/stupidest/most-arrogant person in the series, Catelyn as a character gets more hate for it because people in real life similar to Catelyn always seem to be well liked despite their flaws.

I find it very strange whenever someone says that they dislike Catelyn but they do like Jaime, since they share a lot of the same flaws (arrogance, rash and stupid decision making, treatment of people they view as beneath them, etc.). They also share a lot of similar good qualities (Seeing past Brienne's outward appearance, devotion to family, etc.).

Agreed, I actually love both Cat and Jaime so maybe I'm biased here, but it seems like for whatever reason, people aren't willing to tolerate her mistakes but will then jump through hoops to defend the actions of similar characters. 

The things she said to Jon when Bran was lying comatose were uncalled for but having your child hurt like that is very traumatic. Similar with her release of Jaime, she responded poorly to emotional trauma but who among us hasn't?

In a way I do understand the Cat haters, I actually was one on my first read through, but it eventually struck me that other characters were equally smug and irrational and I didn't immediately pass judgment on them.

Robb basically condemned his men and his mother when he married Jeyne and then stubbornly refused to bend the knee, but no one hates him for it. Jon was actually kind of a spoiled brat at the beginning of the series but it didn't stop us from feeling for him. Jaime has a smug attitude equal to if not worse than Catelyn's but I guess his sardonic humor makes it easier to stomach. 

[SeanF]

The Frey alliance was not a mistake. In one move Cat brought more men to Robb's cause than any of the Northern bannermen did. Without Cat's negotiation skills Walder could have gotten a marriage alliance for far less.

But it could have been had at less of a cost.

Robb marriage was way too valuable to give to the Freys. That should have been kept for a much bigger alliance. Robb's marriage could possibly have brought an entire region, not just the Freys and use of their bridge. Hell, Robb's marriage might have brought them peace if they defeated Tywin and he marries Myrcella... there are much better arrangements out there than to the Freys.

She should have directed the Freys to Edmure and told them that Robb's marriage was off limits. Lie to them and tell them that they are already in negotiations for Robb with another region... something.

Walder Frey had Robb by the short hairs. There's no way he could take the Twins by storm, and a siege would take months. And, had he gone to negotiate, he may have been taken hostage.

Catelyn ran the risk of being taken hostage, and played a weak hand very well. She got not just passage through the twins, but 4,000 soldiers.

[SeanF]

I think that a lot of the hate that goes to Catelyn is similar to the hate that Skyler White got in Breaking Bad. Even though Catelyn is very far from the worst/stupidest/most-arrogant person in the series, Catelyn as a character gets more hate for it because people in real life similar to Catelyn always seem to be well liked despite their flaws.

I find it very strange whenever someone says that they dislike Catelyn but they do like Jaime, since they share a lot of the same flaws (arrogance, rash and stupid decision making, treatment of people they view as beneath them, etc.). They also share a lot of similar good qualities (Seeing past Brienne's outward appearance, devotion to family, etc.).

Catelyn was usually very kind to people beneath her. But, the comparison with Skyler is a good one.

[WSmith84]

14 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

She should have directed the Freys to Edmure and told them that Robb's marriage was off limits. Lie to them and tell them that they are already in negotiations for Robb with another region... something.

Cat doesn't have the power to make marriage decisions for her brother. She didn't even have the power to make one for Robb; she merely brought him the terms and he accepted them. Edmure was not available to discuss a marriage prospect, and was in fact a Lannister captive, so even if Walder was inclined to accept the prospect of a potential marriage alliance he'd be risking the potential groom not being alive or remaining a captive.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

2 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Cat doesn't have the power to make marriage decisions for her brother. She didn't even have the power to make one for Robb; she merely brought him the terms and he accepted them. Edmure was not available to discuss a marriage prospect, and was in fact a Lannister captive, so even if Walder was inclined to accept the prospect of a potential marriage alliance he'd be risking the potential groom not being alive or remaining a captive.

In addition, Robb was not any more important than Edmure in terms of status when the marriage agreement was made. And I see no reason why any other region, especially southern, would opt to back this one claimant by making a marriage alliance; in a way, Catelyn took advantage of Walder's grievances and hurt pride, but that's not a trait that other lords would necessarily share.

[kimim]

33 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

A marriage like that could deliver a whole region not just 4K men and a bridge.

How? Robb is an untried fifteen year old general, taking on Tywin. He is merely the new-made lord of Winterfell; he isn't king yet; he's won no battles, yet. His major allies in the region, the Tullys, are under siege. His father was just beheaded as a traitor. No one is going to be delivering entire regions to Robb. If anything, Frey is putting himself and his people in danger.

[OldGimletEye]

I can't wait until Maester Yandel's next book, which is going to be called, "How Catelyn and Sansa Stark Destroyed Paradise In Westeros."