Why the Catelyn hate?

[Spookykid]

guess i'm a cat lover now, she made no "mistakes" at all

they frey marriage was a good deal at the time

was an ass to jon, kinda hard to like her for that but its not a mistake and not all her fault

took tyrion hostage, she was almost correct. it was jamie not tyrion who pushed bran out the window and the dagger was his

didnt know her sister was insane and manipulated by littlefinger so that whole situation would probably have been different

released jamie, robb just wouldnt listen and exchanging lordlings is what happens all the time, nothing unusual about it. Knew jamie couldnt plan a battle so it wouldnt hurt to fight against him again

the stuff as stoneheart is on the border of being evil but no mistakes to kill freys just not innocents

[WSmith84]

5 minutes ago, Spookykid said:

released jamie, robb just wouldnt listen and exchanging lordlings is what happens all the time, nothing unusual about it. Knew jamie couldnt plan a battle so it wouldnt hurt to fight against him again

Whilst swapping Jaime for Sansa would have been a good idea, releasing Jaime without her King's permission and relying on Tyrion of all people to honour a swap that was not agreed to by either party was beyond foolishness. Tyrion had already demonstrated that he was untrustworthy by sending the fake envoys to break Jaime out. When Jaime turns up in King's Landing, the Lannisters can very easily say that no deal was ever made to swap Sansa for Jaime and since Edmure ordered Jaime to be recaptured it was in fact an escape attempt, not a hostage exchange.

[Dragonsmurf]

I don't hate Catelyn, I think she has good and bad sides, but what she did to Jon was really mean. She was mean to a child who had no guilt whatsoever in the situation. I know she saw him as the evidence of her husband's infidelity, but still. You don't do that to a child, especially not to a motherless one.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

58 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Your argument seems to be based on hindsight, knowing that Robb would eventually declare himself King and become a level above Edmure but at the time he was just the son of a Lord.

But that is the difference, if Robb was not King yet then marrying Edmure (who was the heir to the Frey's Lord) should have worked, there was no need to wed Robb.

Robb was the one at war with the Crown, he was the leader. His marriage should have been kept for a much better match (maybe even Shireen).

Cat didn't balk at the marriage proposal, because as a women she never had a choice in the marriage so it did not phase her that Robb would not either. If Blackfish or another Lord was doing the negotiating I firmly believe that they would have had a better deal, added to the fact that Walder despises women.

[aryagonnakill#2]

32 minutes ago, Spookykid said:

guess i'm a cat lover now, she made no "mistakes" at all

they frey marriage was a good deal at the time

was an ass to jon, kinda hard to like her for that but its not a mistake and not all her fault

took tyrion hostage, she was almost correct. it was jamie not tyrion who pushed bran out the window and the dagger was his

didnt know her sister was insane and manipulated by littlefinger so that whole situation would probably have been different

released jamie, robb just wouldnt listen and exchanging lordlings is what happens all the time, nothing unusual about it. Knew jamie couldnt plan a battle so it wouldnt hurt to fight against him again

the stuff as stoneheart is on the border of being evil but no mistakes to kill freys just not innocents

The dagger was Roberts.  As for releasing Jaime, that immediately lost him thousands of troops in the Karstarks, just as trading Jaime for Sansa would have done.

[SeanF]

Your argument seems to be based on hindsight, knowing that Robb would eventually declare himself King and become a level above Edmure but at the time he was just the son of a Lord.

But that is the difference, if Robb was not King yet then marrying Edmure (who was the heir to the Frey's Lord) should have worked, there was no need to wed Robb.

Robb was the one at war with the Crown, he was the leader. His marriage should have been kept for a much better match (maybe even Shireen).

Cat didn't balk at the marriage proposal, because as a women she never had a choice in the marriage so it did not phase her that Robb would not either. If Blackfish or another Lord was doing the negotiating I firmly believe that they would have had a better deal, added to the fact that Walder despises women.

Walder has an alternative. He stays loyal to the Crown and tells Robb to bugger off. Then, he gets rewarded with Riverrun.

[David Selig]

Why are you still insisting Edmure was an option? Not only Cat and Robb had zero authority over him at this point and it was well known Edmure and Hoster had no desire at all to marry a Frey at all ever, he was also a captive of the Lannisters at the time.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

7 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

But that is the difference, if Robb was not King yet then marrying Edmure (who was the heir to the Frey's Lord) should have worked, there was no need to wed Robb.

Robb was the one at war with the Crown, he was the leader. His marriage should have been kept for a much better match (maybe even Shireen).

Cat didn't balk at the marriage proposal, because as a women she never had a choice in the marriage so it did not phase her that Robb would not either. If Blackfish or another Lord was doing the negotiating I firmly believe that they would have had a better deal, added to the fact that Walder despises women.

This is something I have always thought.  Edmure and Blackfish both could have married Frey women. 

Now this isn't Cats fault at all, but I do think there was more that could have been done.  For example if Robb/Catlyn, Blackfish had written to the Mallisters to meet them at the Twins, the Freys would have been surrounded and in a bit tighter spot.

But hindsight is 20;20.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

I actually think we've had this conversation about the love potion before. But even if it was a love potion and not Robb's fault, it's not Catelyn's fault either. She couldn't have forseen a love potion would be used on Robb thus killing the marriage alliance. Considering what she knew at the time, the Frey alliance was a good one and necessary one.

I can't believe I've somehow begun to defend Cat on here because I can't stand her. But, I don't have blind hate. I have to give credit when it's due. Lol

I dont blame Cat because the marriage fell apart, she could not have known that. I blame her because she negotiated a bad deal.

53 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Cat doesn't have the power to make marriage decisions for her brother. She didn't even have the power to make one for Robb; she merely brought him the terms and he accepted them. Edmure was not available to discuss a marriage prospect, and was in fact a Lannister captive, so even if Walder was inclined to accept the prospect of a potential marriage alliance he'd be risking the potential groom not being alive or remaining a captive.

And she could have set it up for Edmure and then asked her brother to agree, just like they did later.

Or if they have concerns about Edmure not being rescued, they could make the marriage for the Heir of Riverrun (Blackfish) is Edmure died.

 

46 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

In addition, Robb was not any more important than Edmure in terms of status when the marriage agreement was made. And I see no reason why any other region, especially southern, would opt to back this one claimant by making a marriage alliance; in a way, Catelyn took advantage of Walder's grievances and hurt pride, but that's not a trait that other lords would necessarily share.

Robb was more important because he was the leader of the war. Did they not expect for this war to escalate before it ended?

Cat did not look at the long term, if they won then what? Either Robb was going to be King, they made an alliance with another region who would be come King or the North becomes independent and then Robb is King in the North.

Any of those would most likely require that Robb marry some house that was far more important that the Freys.

43 minutes ago, kimim said:

How? Robb is an untried fifteen year old general, taking on Tywin. He is merely the new-made lord of Winterfell; he isn't king yet; he's won no battles, yet. His major allies in the region, the Tullys, are under siege. His father was just beheaded as a traitor. No one is going to be delivering entire regions to Robb. If anything, Frey is putting himself and his people in danger.

Again, short sighted. IF they were going to win, Robb does not finish an untested, warrior with no allies or leadership skills.

And they are not going to win with just the Freys being their main ally.

It is like cutting off you legs as a 10 year old because they are not long enough yet and replacing them with sticks becasue they are a little bit longer. Your legs are going to grow and the sticks are not.

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I dont blame Cat because the marriage fell apart, she could not have known that. I blame her because she negotiated a bad deal.

And she could have set it up for Edmure and then asked her brother to agree, just like they did later.

Or if they have concerns about Edmure not being rescued, they could make the marriage for the Heir of Riverrun (Blackfish) is Edmure died.

 

Robb was more important because he was the leader of the war. Did they not expect for this war to escalate before it ended.

Cat did not look at the long term, if they won then what? Either Robb was going to be King, they made an alliance with another region who would be come King or the North becomes independent and then Robb is King in the North.

Any of those would most likely require that Robb marry some house that was far more important that the Freys.

Again, short sighted. IF they were going to win, Robb does not finish an untested, warrior with no allies or leadership skills.

And they are not going to win with just the Freys being their main ally.

It is like cutting off you legs as a 10 year old because they are not long enough yet and replacing them with sticks becasue they are a little bit longer. Your legs are going to grow and the sticks are not.

In fairness, Cat was heir not Blackfish.  Cat and Robb could have forsaken their right and passed it to Bran tho.

Edit: Since Sansa and Arya are hostages it is too risky to forsake Bran and Rickons claims as well to put the Blackfish as the first male.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

5 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Why are you still insisting Edmure was an option? Not only Cat and Robb had zero authority over him at this point and it was well known Edmure and Hoster had no desire at all to marry a Frey at all ever, he was also a captive of the Lannisters at the time.

 

I was saying that was one option, I am sure there could have been others.

[David Selig]

Just now, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I was saying that was one option, I am sure there could have been others.

Like who?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

In fairness, Cat was heir not Blackfish.  Cat and Robb could have forsaken their right and passed it to Bran tho.

I am pretty sure that it is Uncles before daughters.... but I am not 100% on that.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Just now, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I am pretty sure that it is Uncles before daughters.... but I am not 100% on that.

I'm thinking of the Karstark situation where she directly says daughters before uncles.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Robb was more important because he was the leader of the war. Did they not expect for this war to escalate before it ended.

You know what, if Robb does not pass this bridge there's no war and he's no leader; he's nothing but the laughing stock of the 7K. Catelyn knows that, Robb knows that, and most importantly, Walder knows that too.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I am pretty sure that it is Uncles before daughters.... but I am not 100% on that.

Nope, that's exclusively Targaryen and specifically about the Iron Throne, set after the Dance of the Dragons. "A daughter before an uncle", Jon Snow on Alys Karstark.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Nope, that's exclusively Targaryen and specifically about the Iron Throne, set after the Dance of the Dragons. "A daughter before an uncle", Jon Snow on Alys Karstark.

OK, well either way they then have a pretty good assurance that they can set up the marriage. Whether it is to Cat, Bran or Blackfish.

 

[David Selig]

1 minute ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I'm thinking of the Karstark situation where she directly says daughters before uncles.

Yeah, that's the rule in Westeros. Except for the targs after the Dance of Dragons.

BTW, Robb still could have married someone else later on after the Frey deal. We know that because he actually did that. If Mace Tyrell had offered him his troops if he married Margaery then he could have told the Freys "Sorry, guys, I got a better deal, tough luck".

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Just now, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

OK, well either way they then have a pretty good assurance that they can set up the marriage. Whether it is to Cat, Bran or Blackfish.

Ned is still alive, Bran's ability to marriage is compromised and the Blackfish is old. And really, who in their right mind might opt for Robb instead of Renly, for examble, so that it's so crusial for Robb to stay free? 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

19 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

But that is the difference, if Robb was not King yet then marrying Edmure (who was the heir to the Frey's Lord) should have worked, there was no need to wed Robb.

She is his sister, not his Lord. She does not have the right  to give away his Hand in marriage or speak on his behalf. Even when Robb was Edmure's king he still had to ask him.

19 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Robb was the one at war with the Crown, he was the leader. His marriage should have been kept for a much better match (maybe even Shireen).

You are speaking with the benefit of hindsight Cat and Robb did not know that Stannis was about to rebel.

19 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Cat didn't balk at the marriage proposal, because as a women she never had a choice in the marriage so it did not phase her that Robb would not either.

Well she did 'baulk' as she clearly negotiated the best price possible. She could not have got a better price from Walder.

Robb was free to say no but saying no would mean either going home or going to the Green Fork to get beat.

19 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

 

If Blackfish or another Lord was doing the negotiating I firmly believe that they would have had a better deal, added to the fact that Walder despises women.

How do you figure Walder despises women? It is pretty much a sexist society, Walder's attitude to women is no different to most men. He might talk bluntly to women but he does the same to men.