Bolton's Betrayal

[Adam Yozza]

I've seen other forum's and discussions on the topic of when exactly Roose began to plot his betrayal that ultimately reached the point of him running Robb through with a longsword, and I thought I'd add my own idea. Spoilers for books 1-3.

We all know that Roose has been making moves from towards the end of Clash of Kings when he suggests a march on Duskendale in  a meeting with the Frey's. But I think his treachery began long before that. 

During Robert's Rebellion, Barristan Selmy was injured at the Battle of the Trident. When he was brought before Robert, he counseled killing him, to which Robert replied that he was too       honorable to kill. I think Roose's suggestion is very interesting, and, looking back after we've seen his true colours, I see a power play all over this. If Selmy had been sentenced to death, then we all know that Ned would have done it himself and therefore faced the backlash for killing such a respected and well-known knight, while Roose comes out with his reputation unchanged. 

When the advice was shot down I believe he kept his head down and waited, and bode his time for when he could try again. His chance came on the Green Fork.

Now, I don't intend to analyze the whole battle. There is a good chapter-by-chapter analysis that does the job quite well at https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/chapter-by-chapter-analysis-tyrion-viii/ but I may end up rambling a bit on this topic.

When Robb splits his force at the twins he has 21,400 men total (roughly) including the 3500 men the Frey's supply him with (keeping five hundred to guard the twins plus a hundred under Helman Tallhart, also at the twins). I'm guessing maybe 5000 men on horse rode to Riverrun being joined by a further thousand (again, roughly) from the forces of the Mallister's and Blackwood's, among a few others. The remaining 16,000 were mostly foot, with very little horse, and were given to Roose Bolton. His orders were to delay Tywin Lannister's 25,000 men. I've heard some people say the battle couldn't be done. Bull. Robb won battles outnumbered more than 2:1 using traps, tricks and cunning plans. Roose is, we can unanimously agree, is altogether more cunning and experienced than Robb, and probably could have pulled this of if he hadn't have deliberately botched the battle.

Roose was chosen because he wasn't likely to rush headfirst into battle without care. Yet that's exactly what he did! He forced a night march, killed all of the Lannister scouts, and then....blew horns. Seriously; night marches have worked throughout history, always because the tactic was to hit fast and hard before the enemy could form up. Bolton got close enough that the Lannister's weren't even awake. He could have used what little horse he had to charge them and cause panic, followed by a volley of arrows, by which time the foot would be overrunning their disorganized ranks. Instead he stands on a hill and forms up and blows horns, letting the Lannister's get into nice neat lines and then he doesn't even react accordingly! Marbrand didn't discover them, it wasn't until they saw "his host…less than a mile north of here, forming up in battle array."

A battle would typically open with the archers of both armies volleying each other to weaken their opponents force. Roose sends his front lines charging in and many were taken down by the Lannister archers. The northern archers fire later, when their own men are locked against the Lannister's, increasing their own casualties as much as the enemies. Noticeably only the center and right of the Northmen are used. Tyrion is on the left of the Lannister army, and is therefore fighting the right of the Northmen. Kevan's counter attack is described as having "pushed the northerners against the hills." No mention of the Stark left (led by Jared Frey) engaging Marbrand in any significant way at all. Furthermore, 'hills'. Roose is on a hill! He had infantry! The Lannister's have about 8,000 cavalry. He should have just sat on the hill and waited for Tywin to come to him. His archers would have made mincemeat of Kevan's infantry front line, while the Lion's archers would have been all but useless firing up hill. An uphill cavalry charge against an organized infantry line would have ended in disaster. And if Tywin hadn't attacked. He would have been stuck on the Green Fork for a long time, unable to turn around and retreat without sacrificing a large portion of his army to ensure Bolton didn't him him from behind. Any of these would have worked well, and achieved the desired goal of keeping Tywin too occupied to send help to Riverrun.

Given all this I think it's clear that Bolton threw the battle from the get go. But why?

Reports of the battle tell us that Hornwood, Manderly, Karstark and Cerwyn men are the front line. In fact, the GreatJon says in Winterfell that he won't march behind Hornwood's or Cerwyn's. Implying that they will be the front line. Now Manderly is probably the most militarily powerful house in the North, they can still raise 4000 heavy horse by 'Dance'. So getting rid of their men is probably smart if Roose really was making moves that early. Cerwyn and Karstark were also quite powerful and also quite influential (closest bannermen and kin) whereas Hornwood shares borders with Bolton and wishes to 'regain a holdfast that belonged to his grandfather' and 'open hunting privileges north of a ridge'. Hornwood lies to the south(ish) direction of the Bolton lands, and this expansion would have affected Roose.

I don't think it was a claim on Hornwood itself. Roose just got incredibly lucky with Daryn dying at the Whispering Wood simultaneously to Halys at Green Fork.

He does the same at Duskendale and the Ruby Ford.

First off, why Duskendale? On a map, Antlers in closer to Harrenhall and why only three thousand men. If it was a serious push, why not commit more men to the fight. Presuming a death toll of about 5000 on the Green Fork, Bolton had roughly nine thousand (3000 was a third of Robb's foot) and when he began the plan for Duskendale he still had the Frey's, maybe two thousand foot? The reason: Glover and Tallhart. Tallhart was the next in the list of dangerous neighbors, plus so long as their forces were still strong, Beren Tallhart could threaten Ramsay's claim on Hornwood. Glover was more personal. Robbett was in contest with Roose for command of the van, and I believe insulted him at some point. The force at Duskendale was mainly from these house's

By Duskendale it's clear that Roose had turned against Robb, especially with letting Jaime Lannister go (which was blatant treason-convenient that it was mostly Karstark and Bolton men there when that happened, isn't it) . The Ruby Ford where he abandons about a thousand men under Ser Kyle Condon to die; Condon was a Cerwyn knight and so it can be presumed that it was the remnants of whatever non-Bolton or Karstark forces were left, so the last Cerwyn's and Manderly's plus the Umber foot, which we don't hear a lot about. (assuming a thousand Kar's and 3k Bolton leaves only five thousand men total between the foot and cavalry who stayed loyal, making the Red Wedding much more plausible in terms of numbers).

Sorry if this went on too long, but this has been building in my head since I read Storm of Swords a few years back. What do you think? Could it have been as early as Roberts Rebellion that Roose began plotting?   

[Knight Of Winter]

First, welcome to the forum

By Duskendale it's obvious that Roose is working with Tywin, but in earlier battle - Green Fork - I don't think this is yet the case. Roose obviously intentionally under-performed, and I think the reason is that he was keeping his options open. If Starks win the war, he was important general. If Lannisters gain the upper hand (as it eventually happened), he was sure not to earn Tywin's enmity by intentionally losing a battle. All while risking the forces of other Northern houses while preserving his own.

One more thing I noticed regarding the Battle of the Green Fork was - why should have Roose forced the battle in the first place? His job was to make Tywin think main Stark force is attacking him, and he accomplished that just by marching towards Tywin's army? Had Roose stayed in defensive position, I bet Tywin would just have concluded Aha, the pup is too scared to attack a lion and maybe recklessly attacked himself. The way Roose did it, he forced a battle, lost it and gave the opportunity for Tywin to learn the truth by questioning the prisoners (fortunately for Robb, it was already too late).

[Raisin' Bran]

Interesting idea.  I had not considered that Roose had turned his cloak as early as that.  I will ponder further and respond.

[Adam Yozza]

28 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

First, welcome to the forum

By Duskendale it's obvious that Roose is working with Tywin, but in earlier battle - Green Fork - I don't think this is yet the case. Roose obviously intentionally under-performed, and I think the reason is that he was keeping his options open. If Starks win the war, he was important general. If Lannisters gain the upper hand (as it eventually happened), he was sure not to earn Tywin's enmity by intentionally losing a battle. All while risking the forces of other Northern houses while preserving his own.

One more thing I noticed regarding the Battle of the Green Fork was - why should have Roose forced the battle in the first place? His job was to make Tywin think main Stark force is attacking him, and he accomplished that just by marching towards Tywin's army? Had Roose stayed in defensive position, I bet Tywin would just have concluded Aha, the pup is too scared to attack a lion and maybe recklessly attacked himself. The way Roose did it, he forced a battle, lost it and gave the opportunity for Tywin to learn the truth by questioning the prisoners (fortunately for Robb, it was already too late).

Thanks for the reply, and the welcome. I probably should have been clearer. I don't mean that he was working with Tywin as early as that. I agree with you in that he was keeping his options open, but he was also increasing his own power along the way, by weakening the other forces. And I believe I do mention that defensive strategy, though not in as much detail, because the night march part is the part I focused on.

I'm a nut for strategy and such, so while I'm not saying I could lead a medieval army (I couldn't) I do know what tactics I personally would have tried in a given situation. A forced march would have worked well if he hadn't have alerted the Lannister's to his position. He could have pressed that one extra mile and taken them unawares. The war could have had a rather different outcome if he'd have done this.

Again thanks for the reply!

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I agree whole-heartedly that Roose intended to betray the Starks from the get-go. He deliberately acts the same way Robb feared Umber would go about facing Tywin, and we can assume he was at least somewhat aware of Ramsay's behaviour in the North. Theon betraying Robb was the chance he was waiting for, and so the Bolton men get to burn the ancient home of their rivals and blame it on someone else.

I imagine Roose was preparing something the moment he got word of Eddard Stark's imprisonment. Of course he brings most of his forces to Winterfell when Robb calls the banners, because then he stays close to the Starks and can plot while in plain sight. The fact that Robb wins victories despite Roose means that his betrayal is less noticeable in the face of driving the Lannisters out of the Riverlands. Then when the war's tide turns, Roose reaches out to Tywin and plans his ultimate strike against his fellow Northmen. Of course, he didn't reckon that Stannis Baratheon would come north and successfully rally about a third of the North to his cause, or that two Stark males are still alive.

[aryagonnakill#2]

GRRM said he didn't turn his cloak until later, but I think that's an example of GRRM saying something that does not match up with what he wrote.  I agree with your assessment and would actually add that Roose should never have fought the battle in the first place since the odds were not in his favor.  If Roose had stayed farther north and let Tywin march farther north on the Eastern side of the Trident, Robb could have taken his horse south and crossed to the east and gotten behind Tywins army surrounding him in hostile territory, and he would have outnumbered Tywin, which is exactly why Tywin retreated in the first place.

After Tywin retreats he also just sits around and basically does nothing until he is ordered by Robb to move south and take Harrenhall, he could have at the very least secured all the crossing of the Trident to keep the eastern portion safe and had more ground to recruit from.

[Red Man Racey]

52 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

GRRM said he didn't turn his cloak until later, but I think that's an example of GRRM saying something that does not match up with what he wrote.  I agree with your assessment and would actually add that Roose should never have fought the battle in the first place since the odds were not in his favor.  If Roose had stayed farther north and let Tywin march farther north on the Eastern side of the Trident, Robb could have taken his horse south and crossed to the east and gotten behind Tywins army surrounding him in hostile territory, and he would have outnumbered Tywin, which is exactly why Tywin retreated in the first place.

After Tywin retreats he also just sits around and basically does nothing until he is ordered by Robb to move south and take Harrenhall, he could have at the very least secured all the crossing of the Trident to keep the eastern portion safe and had more ground to recruit from.

It could be a case of GRRM splitting hairs and playing the semantics game -- Roose may not have "formally" turned his cloak until later when he actually makes plans with Tywin, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't taking steps to weaken the position of the Starks from the outset.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He didn't turn his cloak that early. He did exactly what he was ordered to do, march as quick as possible and engage in battle so Tywin and his 20k would not have a chance to respond.

What people seem to forget is that Robb's battle tactic went perfectly at Riverrun. The fact that none of the Lannister scouts spotted any movement was unexpected, as was Jaime idiotically going to deal with it himself and not alerting the 13k army with him. Robb got to capture Jaime and attack a sleeping army quickly freeing Edmure and the other prisoners. It was a battle that was over very quickly when it could have gone on much longer or even been a stalemate or a Lannister victory.  It could not have gone any more smoothly but Robb and the Blackfish would have also had to plan for the possibility that things could have gone wrong and that is why they needed Roose to march through the night and engage in battle as Tywin responding would have resulted in Robb's defeat.

Roose gets criticized for holding himself and his own men back, but that is what many commanders do. they do not deliberately weaken their own forces especially when they have marched into a battle that they had little chance of winning.

There is also the fact that some other nobles were killed or took hostage but then that was true in Robb's victory as well as. Had Robb not used the heir of Hornwood as one of his guards then the Hornwood situation would never have arisen.

 

We have a fairly good idea of when Roose changed sides, ACOK 64. Harrenhal has just heard of Tywin's victory at Kings Landing and the general consensus among the Harrenhal smallfolk is that they will be next:

"He will fall too, Harrenhal pulls them all down in the end. Lord Tywin's won now, he'll be marching back with all his power, and then it will be his turn to punish the disloyal."

This is a view that is not only thought by the smallfolk but the (largely) Frey knights with Roose:

"Someone must have the courage to say it," Ser Hosteen said. "The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that."

Roose Bolton studied him with pale eyes. "His Grace has defeated the Lannisters every time he has faced them in battle."

"He has lost the north," insisted Hosteen Frey. "He has lost Winterfell! His brothers are dead . . . "

Now note that there the Freys, though worried, are still loyal to Robb at this point. And there does not seem to be any secret alliance between Roose and the Freys as Roose is still, publicly at least, backing Robb though his final words in that conversation hint that this may change:

"And who will tell him so?" Roose Bolton smiled. "It is a fine thing to have so many valiant brothers in such troubled times. I shall think on all you've said."

His smile was dismissal.

Now what happens on the next page is hugely probably the most symbolic of Roose cutting all ties with Robb as he goes hunting for Wolves in the Riverlands. 

The hunting party returned near evenfall with nine dead wolves. Seven were adults, big grey-brown beasts, savage and powerful, their mouths drawn back over long yellow teeth by their dying snarls. But the other two had only been pups. Lord Bolton gave orders for the skins to be sewn into a blanket for his bed. "Cubs still have that soft fur, my lord," one of his men pointed out. "Make you a nice warm pair of gloves."

This is the chapter Roose decided  to switch sides.

[Knight Of Winter]

11 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

1) He didn't turn his cloak that early. He did exactly what he was ordered to do, march as quick as possible and engage in battle so Tywin and his 20k would not have a chance to respond.

What people seem to forget is that Robb's battle tactic went perfectly at Riverrun. The fact that none of the Lannister scouts spotted any movement was unexpected, as was Jaime idiotically going to deal with it himself and not alerting the 13k army with him. Robb got to capture Jaime and attack a sleeping army quickly freeing Edmure and the other prisoners. It was a battle that was over very quickly when it could have gone on much longer or even been a stalemate or a Lannister victory.  It could not have gone any more smoothly but Robb and the Blackfish would have also had to plan for the possibility that things could have gone wrong and that is why they needed Roose to march through the night and engage in battle as Tywin responding would have resulted in Robb's defeat.

2) Roose gets criticized for holding himself and his own men back, but that is what many commanders do. they do not deliberately weaken their own forces especially when they have marched into a battle that they had little chance of winning.

1) Were Roose's orders really "Force night march and engage an enemy ASAP"? I doubt so - Roose's job was basically a decoy - to make Tywin think that the main Stark force was engaging him. Night march as well seems to be Roose idea - he chose a risky tactics they reaps huge benefits it it pays off (enemy if caught unawares), and causes big disadvantage if it fails (enemy will engage you while you're sleepless and tired). Now, Roose's march had the chance of actually succeeding, but then he abruptly decided to stop it one mile away from the enemy and order his forces in battle formation - giving Tywin enough time to prepare. That were not Robb's orders, that was Roose playing Northern politics at teh expense of the North.

2) In these battles, Roose is a commander not of Bolton forces, but of unified Northern troops - every man present is "his" man. Was holding back Dreadfort troops really the best strategy in Roose's battles? Of course not, but it's the most convenient for Roose, who gets to see other lords losing their strength while preserving his own. That's called sabotage - and if such a charge was proven in modern times during wartime, the person responsible would be executed for treason.

And if he truly marched into a battle he had little chance of winning, then he's either a fool or intentionally undermining Northern efforts. From what I've seen of him, Roose is not a fool.. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

1) Were Roose's orders really "Force night march and engage an enemy ASAP"? I doubt so

Why do you doubt so?

The larger part of the northern host, pikes and archers and great masses of men-at-arms on foot, remained upon the east bank under the command of Roose Bolton. Robb had commanded him to continue the march south, to confront the huge Lannister army coming north under Lord Tywin.

For good or ill, her son had thrown the dice.

Robb's plan is clear and he needs Tywin occupied and ready for battle and unable to react to any news that may come from Riverrun.

"The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised....

...The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins." He pointed. "When Lord Tywin gets word that we've come south, he'll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun."

This was Robb's plan and this is what happened in the books. Robb knows about the casualties and would have been told what happened and yet he is perfectly fine with it, maintains Roose as the leader. Compare that when he hears about Duskendale:

"Your Grace is too kind. I suffered grievous losses on the Green Fork, and Glover and Tallhart worse at Duskendale."

"Duskendale." Robb made the word a curse. "Robett Glover will answer for that when I see him, I promise you."

 

There is simply no way that Robb would not be angry with Roose or leave him charge if he thought he disobeyed orders. And, once again, we know what the plan was, it was to engage with Tywin to keep him occupied.

2 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

2) In these battles, Roose is a commander not of Bolton forces, but of unified Northern troops - every man present is "his" man. Was holding back Dreadfort troops really the best strategy in Roose's battles?

For Roose yes. That does not mean he was throwing the battle but it was a battle he knew he could not win so he was not going to weaken his own position and sacrifice his own men. Few generals would, look at Jaime at Riverrun when he tells Edmure that the first attack will be from the Riverlords, the Freys and then finally the Westerland troops.

Roose is a pragmatist, he does not know what the future will bring so he is not going to take as few risks as possible (which is why Robb appointed him after all). Had he committed his own men as well there would have been far more Northern casualties, which is what the Greatjon would have done and what Robb did not want.

And once again, Robb and the Blackfish are not fools. Had Roose went against orders they not only would have known but reacted to it.

[Knight Of Winter]

1) From your quote, it's only clear that Robb commanded Roose to march south, not to march as quickly as possible and especially not to force a night march and engage an enemy with tired troops. That was Roose's own idea. It's pretty much clear that Roose fucked up the battle, and I'm betting he did it intentionally.

2) Best for Roose - yes. Best for North - no. Roose is sabotaging Northern war effort, by making other houses take losses and preserving Dreadfort men. He's intentionally making suboptimal decisions as a Northern war general in order to benefit himself and his house. Again, that's treason which is punishable by death (and of course Roose isn't stupid to make his sabotage obvious to Robb and Blackfish. On paper, he obeyed Robb's every command, but in reality - he made intentional mistakes that cost North far more men then necessary).

And, by the way, Roose is a risk-taker, just not when his strength is in question. He takes risks with troops of other lords. After all, forcing a night march and hoping to catch a seasoned enemy general by surprise is a pretty risky move.

Finally, holding off your "own" men is not a common practice in Westeros. Robb, for example, himself fought in front lines (Whispering Wood), while it's never mentioned that Stannis, Tywin, Robert, Tarly, Edmure etc. sacrifice troops sworn to their vassal houses while saving troops sworn directly to them. Even in the Jaime example, he plans to first send the Riverlords (who are of uncertain loyalty), then Freys (who he considers scum) and finally Westerlanders. He has reason to distrust/dislike the other two groups, but he treats all the army from the West as an unit. He doesn't say e.g. first I'll send Forley Prester's troops, then Daven's while I'll keep my own forces safe from harm.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

36 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

1) From your quote, it's only clear that Robb commanded Roose to march south, not to march as quickly as possible and especially not to force a night march and engage an enemy with tired troops. That was Roose's own idea. It's pretty much clear that Roose fucked up the battle, and I'm betting he did it intentionally.

 If he 'fucked' up the battle why does Robb make no mention of it? Why is he so angry with Glover when he fucked up but does not say a peep about Roose?

The whole point of Roose being in charge was that Robb wanted to limit the casualties. If Robb thought there were too many he sure as shit would have done something.

There is absolutely no evidence that Robb did not know about the night march, that he was not involved in the planning of this strategy. By all means, if there is provide it as I'm happy to be wrong about this.

Robb needed Tywin to be occupied, which does not happen if Roose's army takes their time and arrives 12-24 hours later.

News of Robb's attack reached Tywin at the same time he was battling Roose. Had Roose took his time and just one of the Lannister scouts did their job properly and raised the alarm Robb would have taken longer to defeat the Lannister army possibly giving Tywin the time to respond.

Just because Robb and Brynden's plan went spectacularly well does not mean they did not have contingency plans in place in case they needed more time.

 

36 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

2) Best for Roose - yes. Best for North - no.

One does not technically exclude the other. What was good for Roose at the time was not necessarily bad for the North. Their goals were one and the same.

36 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

Roose is sabotaging Northern war effort, by making other houses take losses and preserving Dreadfort men.

No, he is not sabotaging the Northern war effort. Plenty of Freys were captured in that battle as well.  Men were going to die in that battle, it was supposed to be a strategic loss. Something that Robb himself had decided on.

House were weakened in both battles. Harrion may have been captured in the battle of the Green Fork but his two brothers were killed with Robb. Lord Hornwood might have died with Bolton but then his son died defending Robb. Was Robb also sabotaging the Northern war effort?

36 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

And, by the way, Roose is a risk-taker, just not when his strength is in question. He takes risks with troops of other lords.

Sure, I'd say most generals would not want to take risks with their own military.

36 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

After all, forcing a night march and hoping to catch a seasoned enemy general by surprise is a pretty risky move.

Where is it stated that Robb did not agree with this course of action?

36 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Finally, holding off your "own" men is not a common practice in Westeros. Robb, for example, himself fought in front lines (Whispering Wood), while it's never mentioned that Stannis, Tywin, Robert, Tarly, Edmure etc. sacrifice troops sworn to their vassal houses while saving troops sworn directly to them.

Yeah it does. Tywin used the Mountain Clans in the vanguard in the battle of Green Fork as they were expendable. At Deepwood Motte it is the Mountain Clans who swarm the Iornborn while Stannis holds back, Roose (again) sends the Freys and Manderlys to deal with Stannis.

 

[Knight Of Winter]

I don't have much to say other than you missed most of the points I was trying to make.

[OldGimletEye]

17 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

GRRM said he didn't turn his cloak until later, but I think that's an example of GRRM saying something that does not match up with what he wrote.  I agree with your assessment and would actually add that Roose should never have fought the battle in the first place since the odds were not in his favor.  If Roose had stayed farther north and let Tywin march farther north on the Eastern side of the Trident, Robb could have taken his horse south and crossed to the east and gotten behind Tywins army surrounding him in hostile territory, and he would have outnumbered Tywin, which is exactly why Tywin retreated in the first place.

 

Agree. Roose's  advance seemed just a little too rapid for me. I never got why he felt the need to steal a night's march.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

18 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Agree. Roose's  advance seemed just a little too rapid for me. I never got why he felt the need to steal a night's march.

Why do yo think that was not the agreed plan with Robb?

Why do you think Robb was perfectly happy with his performance at the Green Fork but furious with Glover over Duskendale if Roose did so poorly?

[aryagonnakill#2]

48 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 If he 'fucked' up the battle why does Robb make no mention of it? Why is he so angry with Glover when he fucked up but does not say a peep about Roose?

The whole point of Roose being in charge was that Robb wanted to limit the casualties. If Robb thought there were too many he sure as shit would have done something.

There is absolutely no evidence that Robb did not know about the night march, that he was not involved in the planning of this strategy. By all means, if there is provide it as I'm happy to be wrong about this.

Robb needed Tywin to be occupied, which does not happen if Roose's army takes their time and arrives 12-24 hours later.

News of Robb's attack reached Tywin at the same time he was battling Roose. Had Roose took his time and just one of the Lannister scouts did their job properly and raised the alarm Robb would have taken longer to defeat the Lannister army possibly giving Tywin the time to respond.

Just because Robb and Brynden's plan went spectacularly well does not mean they did not have contingency plans in place in case they needed more time.

 

One does not technically exclude the other. What was good for Roose at the time was not necessarily bad for the North. Their goals were one and the same.

No, he is not sabotaging the Northern war effort. Plenty of Freys were captured in that battle as well.  Men were going to die in that battle, it was supposed to be a strategic loss. Something that Robb himself had decided on.

House were weakened in both battles. Harrion may have been captured in the battle of the Green Fork but his two brothers were killed with Robb. Lord Hornwood might have died with Bolton but then his son died defending Robb. Was Robb also sabotaging the Northern war effort?

Sure, I'd say most generals would not want to take risks with their own military.

Where is it stated that Robb did not agree with this course of action?

Yeah it does. Tywin used the Mountain Clans in the vanguard in the battle of Green Fork as they were expendable. At Deepwood Motte it is the Mountain Clans who swarm the Iornborn while Stannis holds back, Roose (again) sends the Freys and Manderlys to deal with Stannis.

 

It does tho.  Tywin did not know that Robb was not with his army until after they engaged Roose.  The ruse had worked perfectly.  At the time of the battle Tywin is too far away to make a difference at Riverrun.  He really didn't need Tywin to fight a battle, only to stay on the eastern side of the River.  Tywin is still on the eastern side when he hears of the disaster at Riverrun, so even if the day the battle took place Roose had stopped and dug in and Tywin realized the ruse, it would still have been too late for him to save Jaime.

Now I am prepared to take GRRM at his word here, but I firmly believe attacking Tywin was a bad strategy, and the above posters commenting on Roose stopping a mile are right in my opinion, that is a very strange thing to do.

[OldGimletEye]

20 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why do yo think that was not the agreed plan with Robb?

Why do you think Robb was perfectly happy with his performance at the Green Fork but furious with Glover over Duskendale if Roose did so poorly?

Ok, so you think it was a good move for Roose to do a forced night's march? What purpose did that serve? Wouldn't have been better for Roose to have drawn Tywin as far North as possible?

As far as Robb's opinion of Roose methods, I don't think he should have been happy. I wouldn't have been.

Roose is not a stupid man. I have no idea why he would think rapidly engaging Tywin would have been a good idea. It seems to me that rapidly engaging Tywin would have only been a good idea if Tywin turned his army around and started marching south.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

Ok, so you think it was a good move for Roose to do a forced night's march? What purpose did that serve? Wouldn't have been better for Roose to have drawn Tywin as far North as possible?

Why would Tywin move further North? He was in the best location and Robb had to either engage or go home.

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

As far as Robb's opinion of Roose methods, I don't think he should have been happy. I wouldn't?

 And yet he was satisifed, leaving Roose in charge of the other army for the duration of the war.

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

Roose is not a stupid man. I have no idea why he would think rapidly engaging Tywin would have been a good idea.

Because they needed his army occupied. That was the plan at Moat Cailin, to engage with Tywin giving the Robb and his riders the chance to sneak up on Jaime. Robb mentions catching Tywin with his "breeches down", that means catching him off guard and as quickly as possible.

13 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

  The ruse had worked perfectly.

That is my point. It did work perfectly but Robb could not have taken the risk and gambled on it working perfectly. Should

• one of the Lannister scouts spotted Robb's advance
• Jaime not stupidly attacked what he thought was a small party and instrad retreated to the larger army
• the 13k army at Riverrun awoken and ready
• Edmure and the other hostages moved to a more secure location

then the battle would have waged on much longer giving Tywin the possibility to reach Riverrun in time. Robb planned for all eventualities as without Riverrun his options were limited.

The Battle of the Whispering Wood and Camps were absolutely perfect for Robb, but a commander allows for the possibility that things do not go perfectly and that is why he needed Roose to quickly march on Tywin.

And don't forget, the quick march was also to hide the fact that the infantry and cavalry had split up. Tywin and his scouts might be wandering why the delay. Delaying would allow Tywin's scouts a better understanding of what was coming his way and he may begin wondering were the Northern cavalry was.

"When Lord Tywin gets word that we've come south, he'll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun."

Time was certainly an issue for both battles.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Yes, but as soon as the battle was over Tywin knew what Robb did, and still he did not have time to effect it, so what is the difference between digging in, or at least just marching at a normal pace, maybe Tywin figures it out that morning, maybe the ruse keeps going for another few days.  Had Roose seen Tywin start to move south he could follow with his whole strength not his weakened strength.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Yes, but as soon as the battle was over Tywin knew what Robb did, and still he did not have time to effect it, so what is the difference between digging in, or at least just marching at a normal pace, maybe Tywin figures it out that morning, maybe the ruse keeps going for another few days.  Had Roose seen Tywin start to move south he could follow with his whole strength not his weakened strength.

Because Robb might not have been so successful. Instead of Jaime going out to get beat and allowing the 13k at Riverrun to carry on sleeping they might have been able to prepare themselves and hold off Robb delaying Robb's victory, or maybe even beat him, but word would have reached Tywin sooner and his cavalry may have been able to respond in time like they did with Kings Landing.

Roose catching Tywin a day early and off guard as well as keeping him occupied for however long the battle took meant an extra day or two for Robb to achieve his victory.