John Suburbs Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 When Sam is trying to convince Jon that being steward for the Old Bear is a good thing, we have this passage: "When I was little, my father used to insist that I attended him in the audience chamber whenever he held court. When he rode to Highgarden to bend the knee to Lord Tyrell, he made me come." My question is, at what point during Sam's life did Randyll have to re-swear fealty Mace? Randyll was bannerman to Mace during RR -- before Sam was born, or an infant at best -- and then again during Greyjoy's Rebellion. My first thought was that it was just some formal requirement. But it appears that Sam is referring to a one-time event. If it was, say, an annual thing he would have said "whenever he rode..." I suppose it could be once-a-decade, but I've never seen any text suggesting that regular re-swearing of fealty is a common practice in the Reach or anywhere else. The second reason for doing this would be if either Randyll or Mace had just come into their lordships. But since we can date them both to RR, we can rule this out. But maybe Randyll was not yet a lord when he fought at Ashford? That leaves us with the third possibility: at some point either before or after Greyjoy's rebellion, Randyll rebelled against Mace and was put down. Randyll is considered by many to be a rock-solid supporter of Mace, but if there is a history that we don't know about there could be some surprises in the southern battle theater in the next book. Or it could just be nothing. A minor error that will get corrected or just glossed over in future editions. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Your reading way to much into it. Everyone who went to Winterfell for the harvest feast swore fealty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: When Sam is trying to convince Jon that being steward for the Old Bear is a good thing, we have this passage: "When I was little, my father used to insist that I attended him in the audience chamber whenever he held court. When he rode to Highgarden to bend the knee to Lord Tyrell, he made me come." My question is, at what point during Sam's life did Randyll have to re-swear fealty Mace? Randyll was bannerman to Mace during RR -- before Sam was born, or an infant at best -- and then again during Greyjoy's Rebellion. My first thought was that it was just some formal requirement. But it appears that Sam is referring to a one-time event. If it was, say, an annual thing he would have said "whenever he rode..." I suppose it could be once-a-decade, but I've never seen any text suggesting that regular re-swearing of fealty is a common practice in the Reach or anywhere else. The second reason for doing this would be if either Randyll or Mace had just come into their lordships. But since we can date them both to RR, we can rule this out. But maybe Randyll was not yet a lord when he fought at Ashford? That leaves us with the third possibility: at some point either before or after Greyjoy's rebellion, Randyll rebelled against Mace and was put down. Randyll is considered by many to be a rock-solid supporter of Mace, but if there is a history that we don't know about there could be some surprises in the southern battle theater in the next book. Or it could just be nothing. A minor error that will get corrected or just glossed over in future editions. Any thoughts? Maybe after Tyrell bent the knee to Robert, he made all his bannermen do the same to him. Just to make sure everyone knew that he was still the guy in the Reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: Maybe after Tyrell bent the knee to Robert, he made all his bannermen do the same to him. Just to make sure everyone knew that he was still the guy in the Reach. But that would have happened long before Sam was old enough to attend. Within a year after RR, I'd say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: Your reading way to much into it. Everyone who went to Winterfell for the harvest feast swore fealty. Probably true. It's just that the way Sam said it made it sound like it was a special trip to swear fealty. "When he rode to Highgarden to bend the knee to Lord Tyrell..." Not, "whenever we rode to Highgarden to attend the Harvest feast." Swearing fealty would have been one of many activities if it was just a normal, routine part of the trip, so there would be no reason to single it out to Jon many years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Your reading way to much into it. Everyone who went to Winterfell for the harvest feast swore fealty. They had to swear fealty because Robb became ner Lord of Winterfell and King in the North. Mace was a ruler from RR to present and as far as we know he didnt proclaim himself King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Well, the Tyrells, and the Reach in general, seem more about pageantry and all the trappings. Especially more so than the Starks. Maybe, where the Starks would just do the "re-swearing fealty" at a pre-arranged feast (Harvest Feast, in this case) the Tyrells and their Lords might be more likely to make a big deal out of it - giving them all an opportunity to show off and have yet another tourney. Travel is also a bit easier in the Reach than the North, which makes it a bit more conducive to various feasts and festivals. Where, say the Mormonts, wouldn't want to be traveling to Winterfell for a "fealty re-swearing" then a couple months later going back for a Feast, it seems logical and right up the Starks alley to just say "Harvest Feast at Winterfell on [insert month/day], you will be swearing fealty as well" whereas the Tyrells, and their Lords, might see these events as important enough to have two separate events - more chances to show off wealth and their tourney prowess! The more roads that the Reach has also makes it easier and less time-consuming for Lords to travel to Highgarden on regular occasions, as well as the size of the Reach itself (nowhere near as large as the North - though it is second to the North in size, correct?). Or maybe the Starks have more trust in their bannermen...for good or ill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 When I went to school I brought my backpack... Whenever I went to school I brought my backpack. I would say the first works better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I just dont see purpose of re-swearing fealty in peace time. If lord Tyrell becomes King of the Reach If lord Tyrell dies and Randyll goes to swear fealty to the heir If there is a war coming and lord Tyrell summoned banner, like Robert, Ned and Jon in RR If lord Tyrell becomes King of 7K and Randyll goes to KL to swear fealty Everything that is not inclueded makes no sense, why would lord go every year to swear felty to his liege lord, especially someone as loyal as Randyll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinny Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 21 minutes ago, dariopatke said: I just dont see purpose of re-swearing fealty in peace time. If lord Tyrell becomes King of the Reach If lord Tyrell dies and Randyll goes to swear fealty to the heir If there is a war coming and lord Tyrell summoned banner, like Robert, Ned and Jon in RR If lord Tyrell becomes King of 7K and Randyll goes to KL to swear fealty Everything that is not inclueded makes no sense, why would lord go every year to swear felty to his liege lord, especially someone as loyal as Randyll. Or if the old, confused grandpa dies and Randyll finally official becomes the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 "Lord Tyrell, some of the lords are a little resentful and restless of your rule. Let's command people to attend a tourney/wedding/whatever so that they can re-swear fealty." "Sounds good." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Storm Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Sam does make it seem like a solo knee bending event rather than something that is reaffirmed yearly or so. The only thing I can think of is that after Mace switched his alliance from Targaryen to Baratheon that there would be a trickle down process of swearing fealty to new Lords Paramount/New King that would have occurred after the war when Sam was "little". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Maybe some sort of Anniversary type deal? Celebrating Lord Tyrell's 25 year of being Lord or House Tyrells 300th year as LPs.. or something? Just some pomp and circumstance type deal where everyone has to put on their colors and pay respects to their Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Could it be during the Greyjoy's Rebellion? Doing some formal allegiance before entering the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Was Sam's grandfather still alive when he was little? Maybe after Randyll's dad died and he became lord he had to go swear fealty directly to Mace as he would have been sworn to his father before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Or if the old, confused grandpa dies and Randyll finally official becomes the Lord. This. The only scenario that makes some sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Vader Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 6 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said: Well, the Tyrells, and the Reach in general, seem more about pageantry and all the trappings. Especially more so than the Starks. Maybe, where the Starks would just do the "re-swearing fealty" at a pre-arranged feast (Harvest Feast, in this case) the Tyrells and their Lords might be more likely to make a big deal out of it I am pretty sure that it is a common enough custom in feudal societies to take part in a swearing society each year. Its something featured in series like Outlander or Vikings where attendance and certain gestures indicated a continuing loyalty. If someone got married or moved they would have to give up their old clan rights and join the new one. If people swore loyalty each year they could be trapped into a legal argument if they were disloyal allowing a justification of putting that person to death. The swearing in is both a social event and an important reaffirmation of a persons intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 5 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: Was Sam's grandfather still alive when he was little? Maybe after Randyll's dad died and he became lord he had to go swear fealty directly to Mace as he would have been sworn to his father before. This makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedam Targaryen Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Since we're playing the maybe game, maybe lords in the reach re-affirm their fealty every seven years... well, because seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Eaglesteel Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 What is odd about it, is that knee bending was probably one of the few lordly things that Sam didn't need to be taught. I'm sure he'd be a natural at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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