New Star Trek Series on CBS

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

I'm in a slightly odd position in that I consider myself a Trek fan, having watched TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and all the movies multiple times. But I've never actually sat through all of the original series, just bits and pieces.......so I thought, 50th anniversary and all, I'd give it a watch. I'm up to The Menagerie. WOW is the sexism spectacularly disappointing. It just doesn't gel at all that this is the same Federation as the one depicted in TNG onward. Females as captains banned, cowering behind the nearest male everytime something scary happens, appealing to Kirk to "notice my legs".......jeez. A poor captive woman turns out to be deformed, and so of course, she's ruled out of coming home with the Enterprise.....better to stay on this planet of telepaths who can give her an "illusion of beauty". And all the males just strut off grinning like they've done her a huge favour, isolated from humanity but at lease able to look in a mirror and pretend she's in her twenties. Bleurgh.

And with all this, it was still considered a visionary, progressive show at the time.

[Jaxom 1974]

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 5:57 PM, Werthead said:

A specific incident. Possibly the Farragut incident, although I'm not sure how that factors in. Maybe the Discovery is the ship that rescues the Farragut and the first season ends with them beaming Lt. Commander Kirk on board? That'd be cheesy. And confusing to have a third actor playing him (or maybe they stump up the money to get Chris Pine to do a cameo as the original Kirk, but that gets even more confusing).

Looking through the rest of the timeline for the 2250s, it's the only thing that really sticks out as something that maybe can be explored further.

I'd suspect they're likely referring to something like the incident referenced in "Conscience of the King" or the history of Garth of Izar...using the incidents but absolutely ignoring actual established timelines.

[Calibandar]

I am personally really looking forward to this series.

A new Trek series that I hope will be better than previous ones.

I liked most of the Star Trek Next Generation series, with Picard in it. Felt that was easily the best show.

Voyager........ never appealed to me. ST Enterprise with Scott Bakula.........just felt ridiculous. 

Finally tried DS9 as that was supposed to be the best one and the big competitor for Babylon 5 but found it nowhere near as watchable as B5 and oftentimes downright cringeworthy, like ST Enterprise.

So I am hoping for something new here, with less cheese please.

[Rhom]

12 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I'm in a slightly odd position in that I consider myself a Trek fan, having watched TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and all the movies multiple times. But I've never actually sat through all of the original series, just bits and pieces.......so I thought, 50th anniversary and all, I'd give it a watch. I'm up to The Menagerie. WOW is the sexism spectacularly disappointing. It just doesn't gel at all that this is the same Federation as the one depicted in TNG onward. Females as captains banned, cowering behind the nearest male everytime something scary happens, appealing to Kirk to "notice my legs".......jeez. A poor captive woman turns out to be deformed, and so of course, she's ruled out of coming home with the Enterprise.....better to stay on this planet of telepaths who can give her an "illusion of beauty". And all the males just strut off grinning like they've done her a huge favour, isolated from humanity but at lease able to look in a mirror and pretend she's in her twenties. Bleurgh.

ETA: oh, and not sexism related but......the death penalty is apparently still around in this episode? Seriously?

Anyway, The Menagerie is basically an excuse to reuse the abandoned pilot with Christopher Pike in charge. It's declared to be 13 years ago.......or, weirdly, 3 years before Discovery. 3 years before, and the Enterprise receives an actual fax from Starbase 11.......great. 

Entirely unrelated, but I think I'm looking forward to this more than the new series...

You can't watch 60's TV with today's sensibilities.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

poor captive woman turns out to be deformed, and so of course, she's ruled out of coming home with the Enterprise.....better to stay on this planet of telepaths who can give her an "illusion of beauty".

IIRC you mean the episodes with Pike who had gone to a planet and found a girl who ended up to be deformed. But the episode also had Pike, who is also deformed, paralysed and mute, to return because so Spock's kind of betrayal and live with the girl because that was what both of them wanted.

[DaveSumm]

49 minutes ago, Rhom said:

You can't watch 60's TV with today's sensibilities.

Perhaps not, but still, my brain does not accept that this is the Federation. It's inconceivable it'd be that way if it formed tomorrow, let alone 200 years from now. But anyway, it wasn't really intended as a dig at TOS, I'm just pointing out that Discovery either abandons its attempt to appear like it might turn into that in 10 years, or it's forced to come with barmy reasons why women are banned from being captains and the death penalty still exists.

20 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

IIRC you mean the episodes with Pike who had gone to a planet and found a girl who ended up to be deformed. But the episode also had Pike, who is also deformed, paralysed and mute, to return because so Spock's kind of betrayal and live with the girl because that was what both of them wanted.

Well, it's what Pike wanted. And maybe when he returned, it's what the girl wanted. But at the time, she reveals she's deformed and says "now you see why I can't go back". Pike just nods, and begs the Telorians to "at least give her the illusion of beauty". Why was there no offer of coming home, maybe seeing a human doctor, maybe the possibility that being deformed is irrelevant and she can live a full and rich life? My favourite Roddenberry quote was from the casting announcement of Picard, when a journalist asked "surely they would have cured baldness by the 24th century?", to which he replied "yes, but by the 24th century, they would no longer care". I was hoping to see some of that in TOS.

I just got my hopes up that, despite the short skirts and the apparently irresistible good looks of Kirk, women were still a valued and equal part of the crew. Weirdly, Number One in the pilot/Menagerie history seems to come closest to this (although I read that the parts removed for the Menagerie contained Pike moaning about how he hates working with women on the bridge). Instead you get the impression that all the men think they're doing female kind a huge favour just letting them be there at all.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, DaveSumm said:

But at the time, she reveals she's deformed and says "now you see why I can't go back".

Hence it was her choice to stay there because she was uncomfortable. If she feels that isn't a man's fault is what she wants and feels. 

6 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I was hoping to see some of that in TOS.

I think that for TOS' years the fact that they had Uhura and also her kiss with Kirk was groundbreaking.  IIRC they wanted to have a female captain instead of Kirk but they thought that it would had been unbelievable.

[DaveSumm]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Hence it was her choice to stay there because she was uncomfortable. If she feels that isn't a man's fault is what she wants and feels. 

Well Pike does announce he "agreed with her reasons" when he returns. Just saying, no fucking way Picard just lets her walk off feeling like her looks rule her out of the Federation population.

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I think that for TOS' years the fact that they had Uhura and also her kiss with Kirk was groundbreaking.  IIRC they wanted to have a female captain instead of Kirk but they thought that it would had been unbelievable.

Yea, credit where it's due and all that. I just didn't realise the extent of it. I personally hope Discovery just doesn't bother trying to fudge things to look like it might plausibly have taken place between Pike and Kirk's era. I really hope they have a good reason for making another prequel.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, DaveSumm said:

Well Pike does announce he "agreed with her reasons" when he returns. Just saying, no fucking way Picard just lets her walk off feeling like her looks rule her out of the Federation population.

So they should had forced her to do what they wanted against her will?

1 minute ago, DaveSumm said:

Yea, credit where it's due and all that. I just didn't realise the extent of it. I personally hope Discovery just doesn't bother trying to fudge things to look like it might plausibly have taken place between Pike and Kirk's era. I really hope they have a good reason for making another prequel.

I used to rolling my eyes on many things about the women, also happened in DW, however we have to remember that we cannot judge a 60s tv series with 21st century standards. It’s like judging Jane Austen’s according today’s standards.

[DaveSumm]

42 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So they should had forced her to do what they wanted against her will?

Come now, I never said that. She assumes she can't come back and Pike doesn't challenge it. He agrees. He could have explained to her that the Federation believes in equal rights and opportunities for all, regardless of looks. Or that a human doctor (the Telorians didn't have an example of a human so didn't know how to put her back together) might be able to treat her. Of course, she's written to be the kind of woman who would want to remain in beauty rather than return deformed, so strictly speaking you're right, giving her the choice is the right thing. But still, Discovery better have a good reason for making life so hard for itself in setting it just 3 years after all this happened.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, DaveSumm said:

Come now, I never said that. She assumes she can't come back and Pike doesn't challenge it. He agrees. He could have explained to her that the Federation believes in equal rights and opportunities for all, regardless of looks. Or that a human doctor (the Telorians didn't have an example of a human so didn't know how to put her back together) might be able to treat her. Of course, she's written to be the kind of woman who would want to remain in beauty rather than return deformed, so strictly speaking you're right, giving her the choice is the right thing.

Well it seemed like her decision and since she wanted to do it and didn't asked if they could helped her I don't know what else they should had done. 

19 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

But still, Discovery better have a good reason for making life so hard for itself in setting it just 3 years after all this happened.

That is true.

[Rhom]

Personally... I don't think they need to address it at all.  The show can go right on with progressive policies without ever even having to address the 1960's.  We know what Star Trek and the Federation is supposed to represent.  Go with that.  Star Trek: Beyond had Sulu as openly homosexual.  (Interestingly... George Takei was opposed to that, but I digress.)  Star Trek in the 1960's was groundbreaking for having TV's first interracial kiss, but lets be honest about things; homosexuality never would have been part of the United Earth Space Agency (as Kirk describes their overarching organization in one early TOS episode).

Sci-Fi is always a reflection on society as it stands at the time.  Sometimes the best Sci Fi gets things right about where things are headed; but you can't read settings from more than 20-30 years ago and expect it to envision social progress accurately.

Discovery very well may have a black woman as the featured Captain, at no time does it need to address a story from 50 years ago where females weren't captains.  Move on. 

[DaveSumm]

49 minutes ago, Rhom said:

...at no time does it need to address a story from 50 years ago where females weren't captains.  Move on. 

Completely agree, and I doubt they will......except it seems to be pulling in different directions. If you isolate the story of Discovery to avoid awkward inconsistencies with TOS, why bother setting it during this time at all? If you embrace the time period, you're gonna be treading all over these things. Move on indeed; 15 years after Voyager would do very nicely.

[Jaxom 1974]

Well said, Rhom.  Move forward. If it's something that truly worthy of touching upon, do so, but otherwise try not to worry too much about 50 year outdated sensibilites. 

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

The issue of female captains may have not been addressed on TOS but on Enterprise we saw one so maybe they won't need to deal with it too much.  

[drawkcabi]

Also, TOS never really said women can't be captains. I know Janice Lester said that in "Turnabout Intruder" but she was clinically insane. Yes in the 60's when she said that it was probably meant she was stating a fact, but as Arch-MaesterPhillip said, in Enterprise they had a woman captain of the Columbia, and in this day it's generally taken that it was a delusion of Lester when she said that. Because she couldn't be a captain she felt no woman could be one.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Well said, Rhom.  Move forward. If it's something that truly worthy of touching upon, do so, but otherwise try not to worry too much about 50 year outdated sensibilites. 

Yeah, being regressive because of continuity seems really silly especially when the spirit of the show is more important. I'm sure there'll be folk pointing out problems with the new show in 50 years time.

[SerHaHa]

I agree, very well put Rhom, no need to beat that drum over again - we get it, we agree, let's more forward from what past ST has already established.  First interracial kiss on TV, first woman/woman kiss (DS9), it's well established Trek broke through barriers, and it in no way needs to re assert what it's done and been all about.  Move forward from where they helped put the bar.  Great post Rhom. 

edit - I still remember that episode of DS9, and how the network for the week leading up to it, in all the previews/adds/clips warned there would be "explicit" material.  Hah.  These days, two woman having a quick 3 second kiss in a 15 second semi-make out session doesn't even turn a head.

For me, Avery Brooks was my favorite captain, and he proved during those times that a minority could not just carry, but thrive in the main roll on such a show.  Janeway on Voyager never really floated my boat, which is why I'm hoping they cast a great woman in this series, I have several I'm hoping for, and show some sides to a female captain which we never really got in Voyager.  Not that Voyager has anything to apologize for IMO, I just would like to see a bit more regarding a female lead/captain.  If she was 10 years younger, CCH Pounder from The Shield would be great.

[red snow]

3 hours ago, SerHaHa said:

  Janeway on Voyager never really floated my boat, which is why I'm hoping they cast a great woman in this series, I have several I'm hoping for, and show some sides to a female captain which we never really got in Voyager.  Not that Voyager has anything to apologize for IMO, I just would like to see a bit more regarding a female lead/captain.  If she was 10 years younger, CCH Pounder from The Shield would be great.

Having seen Kate Mulgrew in one season of "Orange is the new black", I'm pretty confident that the problem with Janeway was in the writing unless Mulgrew improved massively over the last 15 years. Given a lot of Voyagers problems lie with the writing/approach I suspect it's the case here too.

I tend to agree with an upthread comment about Trek not usually having a main character but I guess the Captain tended to be in all episodes and had to call the big shots. I did like the format of one of the cast getting their own episode and how this rotated throughout seasons eg Data or Bashir had their own episodes. It seems to be an outdated approach in TV nowadays though.

[DaveSumm]

Probably old news to the diehard Trek fans, but I stumbled across this novel during my TOS rewatch, in which the corpse of Kirk, reanimated by a Borg/Romulan alliance, is sent to kill Jean-Luc Picard. 

Ah, Bill.