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Can you answer these questions about TOJ?


purple-eyes

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TOJ is likely the most mysterious and weird place in westeros. 

So many confusing things happened here. 

I have a few of them which I have no idea why, maybe we can have a systematic analysis here. 

1. TOJ is a watch tower made of stone. Why did three KG stand in front of tower to openly meet ned, in stead of using the tower as a shelter and defense? (Except GRRM wanted them to have an epic talk) 

2. Jon was a couple of months old by then. He can be sent to somewhere else since Ned did so soon after.  Dany also can be carried away immediately after birth. So this is not a big problem. I understand lyanna is sick so she can not travel, so why did not KG send baby jon with wet nurse to somewhere else like starfall or dragonstone so that they do not need to fight with ned until death? Jon is much safer without lyanna since the rebellion is only looking for lyanna. And rebellion people would certainly not harm lyanna. 

3. What happened to the servants in TOJ? There must be a few of them to cook and clean. They all know Jon's parentage. In fact, they know much more than howland reed. (Unless they have no idea who are rhaegar, lyanna, arthur dayne and white bull for one year, And they all use fake names and rhaegar dyed his hair and KG hid their white cloak for one year) Were they all killed by ned? 

4. Lyanna is sick, but she can talk. KG fought with ned, either ned was killed( actually he was almost killed), or KG were killed. Why did not she stop them from killing each other? So she is ok with that KG tried to kill ned? I think she had power over KG since she is supposed to be rhaegar's lover/wife/crown princess/mother of king/princess regent of king jon targaryen. Even she is nothing but a mistress, she can still threaten KG by saying: if you fight with him, I will kill myself! Then they will agree because rhaegar asked them to guard her. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

2. Jon was a couple of months old by then. He can be sent to somewhere else since Ned did so soon after.  Dany also can be carried away immediately after birth. So this is not a big problem. I understand lyanna is sick so she can not travel, so why did not KG send baby jon with wet nurse to somewhere else like starfall or dragonstone so that they do not need to fight with ned until death?

I'm confused. At this point, R+L=J is still a theory, albeit one with so much evidence to support it that it is often almost taken for canon. That being the case, how do you know how old Jon is when Ned arrives? Or Dany, I suppose, if that's a theory you subscribe to; I find it over - the - rainbow crackpot myself, so I'll stick with discussing Jon's birth. 

I have always believed, and taken from the posts of most other subscribers to R+L=J, that Lyanna died shortly after giving birth to him. In which case, time was extraordinarily short to get the infant to a wet nurse or find a nanny goat.

I think it's possible Wylla was already there and acting as servant, midwife, and wet nurse. Any woman who's ever had a baby knows how critical those first couple of days and weeks are for the baby to have constant milk available, because they tend to lose weight, dehydrate, fall prey to jaundice - and that is here and now with modern medicine. 

As far as the fight to the death, the KG was going to be wherever the baby was, in the event of separation from his mother. Ned was not going to leave without his nephew, and the KG weren't going to allow him to take the baby. That is all there was to it. It came out the way it came out - it could have easily gone the other way. 

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17 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

I'm confused. At this point, R+L=J is still a theory, albeit one with so much evidence to support it that it is often almost taken for canon. That being the case, how do you know how old Jon is when Ned arrives? Or Dany, I suppose, if that's a theory you subscribe to; I find it over - the - rainbow crackpot myself, so I'll stick with discussing Jon's birth. 

I have always believed, and taken from the posts of most other subscribers to R+L=J, that Lyanna died shortly after giving birth to him. In which case, time was extraordinarily short to get the infant to a wet nurse or find a nanny goat.

I think it's possible Wylla was already there and acting as servant, midwife, and wet nurse. Any woman who's ever had a baby knows how critical those first couple of days and weeks are for the baby to have constant milk available, because they tend to lose weight, dehydrate, fall prey to jaundice - and that is here and now with modern medicine. 

As far as the fight to the death, the KG was going to be wherever the baby was, in the event of separation from his mother. Ned was not going to leave without his nephew, and the KG weren't going to allow him to take the baby. That is all there was to it. It came out the way it came out - it could have easily gone the other way. 

Wylla or a wet nurse must be already there before the birth. 

Nobody can be sure that lyanna has milk after birth, right? If lyanna has no milk, then baby will die without a wet nurse. And also ned needs to travel with jon and there must be a wet nurse with them too. 

So I think this is not a problem. There is a wet nurse in TOJ even before jon was born. 

We know jon was born during the sack. We know ned went to strom end to lift the besiege after the sack. We know ned went to search and find TOJ after this. All these events and traveling will take time, all together, at least a couple of months. 

So I think it is safe to say jon is a couple of months old when ned found them. 

This is why I felt KG can take jon to somewhere else because ned or Robert or any rebellion is looking for lyanna, not a baby. If they see lyanna with a baby, then this baby is in danger since they probably will know this is son of rhaegar. But if baby was sent out separately to say, starfall, then nobody will suspect this is son of rhaegar. At least not so easy. And KG does not need to fight with ned until death in this case. 

Unless they did not want to let lyanna meet ned to tell him there is a baby somewhere. But again, even ned know lyanna birthed a baby, it is hard for him to locate a baby he did not even see. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

TOJ is likely the most mysterious and weird place in westeros. 

So many confusing things happened here. 

I have a few of them which I have no idea why, maybe we can have a systematic analysis here. 

1. TOJ is a watch tower made of stone. Why did three KG stand in front of tower to openly meet ned, in stead of using the tower as a shelter and defense? (Except GRRM wanted them to have an epic talk) 

2. Jon was a couple of months old by then. He can be sent to somewhere else since Ned did so soon after.  Dany also can be carried away immediately after birth. So this is not a big problem. I understand lyanna is sick so she can not travel, so why did not KG send baby jon with wet nurse to somewhere else like starfall or dragonstone so that they do not need to fight with ned until death? Jon is much safer without lyanna since the rebellion is only looking for lyanna. And rebellion people would certainly not harm lyanna. 

3. What happened to the servants in TOJ? There must be a few of them to cook and clean. They all know Jon's parentage. In fact, they know much more than howland reed. (Unless they have no idea who are rhaegar, lyanna, arthur dayne and white bull for one year, And they all use fake names and rhaegar dyed his hair and KG hid their white cloak for one year) Were they all killed by ned? 

4. Lyanna is sick, but she can talk. KG fought with ned, either ned was killed( actually he was almost killed), or KG were killed. Why did not she stop them from killing each other? So she is ok with that KG tried to kill ned? I think she had power over KG since she is supposed to be rhaegar's lover/wife/crown princess/mother of king/princess regent of king jon targaryen. Even she is nothing but a mistress, she can still threaten KG by saying: if you fight with him, I will kill myself! Then they will agree because rhaegar asked them to guard her. 

1. If the KG just sit in the tower, then Ned can have some of his party ride for reinforcements. 3 vs. 7 is a lot better odds than 3 vs. 70.

2. We don't know that.

Some people think they did. Elio, for one. Giving the reason that the KG would have been worried that Lyanna's sickness was communicable. It probably wasn't, but they wouldn't have known that.

3. Lots of people think Wylla was there, including me.

4. Lyanna might have been too sick to know what was happening until it had already happened.

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1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

We know jon was born during the sack. 

You seem to feel very sure about when Jon was born, but I've never run across anything indicating this. Could you please provide textual evidence for this statement?

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I tend to think that Wylla or someone else was present at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna (though I think Wylla the most likely - this is given her association with Jon, the proximity of the Tower of Joy to Starfall versus Harrenhal or Oldtown and the trust that Rhaegar apparently had in Ser Arthur Dayne). I do not believe that three KG would be left to deal with a high-born young woman birthing her first child. It makes sense to me that they would have sought out a trustworthy serving woman to help Lyanna through the ordeal and, in the event Lyanna died in childbirth (not unlikely given the medieval medical system Westeros operated under) then a wet nurse would be required. Wylla's presence or that of another midwife/wet nurse would account for the "they" that found Ned with Lyanna after she had gone. Howland was not alone.  

I don't believe, however, that Jon was necessarily born on the day that Ned and his traveling companions reached the Tower of Joy. If we assume that there was some sort of wet nurse at the Tower of Joy (as I have said above, this is not outside the realms of possibility) then he has clearly had a source of milk since birth.  IRL we consider Jane Seymour to have died as a result of childbed fever - the same sort of fever that took Lyanna - and she died twelve days after giving birth to the baby that later became Edward VI. And so, it is not unreasonable to believe that Jon was, perhaps, a few days old when Ned arrived. Or, at the very least, had not been born that day. 

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Dornishdame, you're right in that Lyanna was not necessarily giving birth as the battle was fought outside her window. I do not, however, believe that she lived for many days; likely hours or maybe a day at most. The reason is because she evidently did not, as you astutely observed, die of a fever. Ned repeatedly refers to Lyanna lying in a "bed of blood."

For someone who has been away at war for the past year and then just fought another bloody battle, I believe it's significant that Ned is struck by the amount of blood surrounding his sister. That's not normal, that's hemhorrhaging; and women even today do not survive that for long without immediate critical care. BTDT myself, unfortunately. It moves FAST. 

I also think that's why his memories of their last conversation are so fraught and, from her side, desperate. She NEEDS to know that Ned agrees to do as she asks with the baby, and that once his word is given she can let go. It's one of the most heartbreaking scenarios in the story to me, and I understand why Ned would insist on destroying the place where it happened. 

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7 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

Dornishdame, you're right in that Lyanna was not necessarily giving birth as the battle was fought outside her window. I do not, however, believe that she lived for many days; likely hours or maybe a day at most. The reason is because she evidently did not, as you astutely observed, die of a fever. Ned repeatedly refers to Lyanna lying in a "bed of blood."

For someone who has been away at war for the past year and then just fought another bloody battle, I believe it's significant that Ned is struck by the amount of blood surrounding his sister. That's not normal, that's hemhorrhaging; and women even today do not survive that for long without immediate critical care. BTDT myself, unfortunately. It moves FAST. 

I also think that's why his memories of their last conversation are so fraught and, from her side, desperate. She NEEDS to know that Ned agrees to do as she asks with the baby, and that once his word is given she can let go. It's one of the most heartbreaking scenarios in the story to me, and I understand why Ned would insist on destroying the place where it happened. 

Just saw a great post about bloody bed being a euphemism for childbirth in another thread that I replied to.

Here it is (Topic - Jon was born in starfall):

4 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

One example off the top of my head is when Mirri Maz Duur says to a heavily-pregnant Dany, "I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Dany replies, "My time is near. I would have you attend me when he comes, if you would." Which makes it pretty explicit.

Another one: "That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain." This is Aeron Greyjoy being reflective in AFFC.

So, when Ned thinks of Lyanna "in her bed of blood", because of these examples elsewhere in the text, a parallel is drawn which leads to the conclusion that Lyanna had given birth.

It doesn't need to be literally her bed that she owned, it just has to be a bed. It doesn't even need to be literally bloody; the phrase is a colloquialism, like the (formerly) common phrase "on the wagon" meaning abstaining from alcohol. It doesn't mean somebody is literally on a wagon.

So, of course you're welcome to draw your own conclusions, but my conclusion is that Lyanna had had a child and it's not a red herring.

 

 

This. Great explanation, too.

It does seem like there actually is/was blood in the room Lyanna died in from some of Ned's other thoughts, which so often include some sort of blood reference/imagery: 

Quote

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.

 

Quote

A storm of petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

Quote

'Promise me, Ned,' Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

 

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Arthur Dayne weilded a Greatsword, this needs room to swing and fight properly.

A watch tower won't have much defenses, might not even have doors as it's for watching not fighting.

Lyanna was found in a "bed of blood" which points to the birth being quite recent. She wouldn't sleep in a bloody bed for very long. Had Jon been months old by then I think he would have gone with Wylla to Starfall or somewhere other than a tower in the middle of nowhere.

With a woman giving birth inside the men not going to feel too comfortable being in there. Epecially when she is sick afterwards.

Wylla (and maybe others) were likely there. She was a Dayne servant. Likely there are Dayne who know as much (or close to it) as Howland Reed. They are keeping the secret out of respect for Ned. This respect goes as far as naming Edric Dayne after him. This could be for simply returning Dawn but there could be more to it.

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9 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

TOJ is likely the most mysterious and weird place in westeros. 

So many confusing things happened here. 

I have a few of them which I have no idea why, maybe we can have a systematic analysis here. 

1. TOJ is a watch tower made of stone. Why did three KG stand in front of tower to openly meet ned, in stead of using the tower as a shelter and defense? (Except GRRM wanted them to have an epic talk) 

2. Jon was a couple of months old by then. He can be sent to somewhere else since Ned did so soon after.  Dany also can be carried away immediately after birth. So this is not a big problem. I understand lyanna is sick so she can not travel, so why did not KG send baby jon with wet nurse to somewhere else like starfall or dragonstone so that they do not need to fight with ned until death? Jon is much safer without lyanna since the rebellion is only looking for lyanna. And rebellion people would certainly not harm lyanna. 

3. What happened to the servants in TOJ? There must be a few of them to cook and clean. They all know Jon's parentage. In fact, they know much more than howland reed. (Unless they have no idea who are rhaegar, lyanna, arthur dayne and white bull for one year, And they all use fake names and rhaegar dyed his hair and KG hid their white cloak for one year) Were they all killed by ned? 

4. Lyanna is sick, but she can talk. KG fought with ned, either ned was killed( actually he was almost killed), or KG were killed. Why did not she stop them from killing each other? So she is ok with that KG tried to kill ned? I think she had power over KG since she is supposed to be rhaegar's lover/wife/crown princess/mother of king/princess regent of king jon targaryen. Even she is nothing but a mistress, she can still threaten KG by saying: if you fight with him, I will kill myself! Then they will agree because rhaegar asked them to guard her. 

1. The battle occurred as Ned tried to leave with Jon, not as he tried to enter the tower. If I were to say to you that there were zombies in front of my house, you would have no idea where I was since I have only reported the position of the zombies. Similarly, we are only told the location of the KG (in front of the tower), not where Ned is.

2. Jon could be a couple of months old or a little younger. However, the KG were undoubtedly following orders. If their orders included Lyanna (which they almost certainly did), they would have been unable to leave until Lyanna either got better or died. Their orders probably didn't allow for them to choose who they were going to stay with, Lyanna or Jon.

3. Agreed there was at least one servant at ToJ. If this servant was Wylla, there really didn't need to be more than just the one. However there could have been more.

4. When Ned was allowed in to see Lyanna, she made him promise to take Jon back to Winterfell with him, rather than allowing the KG to take Jon into exile (at least that is what I think happened). So Lyanna's request led to a fight that otherwise would probably not have happened.

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1. We don't know. The idea that they met them to prevent Ned from coming back with reinforcements is not exactly convincing, though. If Ned had intended to go there with a bigger party he would have done so. He could have gone there with his entire army, after all.

I'm inclined to believe that it may make some sense to assume that Ned did not fight against the Kingsguard when he arrived at the tower.

2. We don't know when exactly Jon was born nor how old he was when Ned arrived there. If he was already months old I'm not willing to believe they had been at the tower for a long time. Assuming he was there at all - which isn't clear yet (all we know for a certainty is that Lyanna was there). We also don't know how Wylla or a different wetnurse enters into the picture. Strictly speaking Lyanna may not have thought she needed such a woman because, you know, she was young and had swollen breasts herself, presumably.

3. The idea that the gang hid at the tower for a year or even many months makes little sense. But technically Rhaegar could have used the KG as servants and grooms. They were sworn to obey, after all. And without their white cloaks they wouldn't have been all that conspicuous. Rhaegar himself would have to stay out of sight, though.

4. That is a core problem in the theory that the fight happened before Lyanna died. The KG would have been acting rather weird killing the Lyanna's brother, especially if that guy had made it pretty clear that he was not there to do them or their charges any harm. One can try to explain away those discrepancies but nobody has done this convincingly up to this point. You end up with strange scenarios like the KGs 'protecting the king' or Ned obviously being a threat to his own nephew or sister.

I had this discussion a couple of times at is really breathtaking how people can re-imagine and recreate Lyanna's character to fit there present need. A girl who stands up for Howland and participates in a tourney as a mystery knight wouldn't stand meekly by while three men sworn to protect her are butchering her own brother and his/her close friends - among them the very Howland Reed she once stood up for. I mean, that fact is really glaring there, but nobody seems to notice that.

In addition Lyanna would also have had very strong problems with the murders of her father and brother. That should have cast a huge shadow over her relationship with Rhaegar early on, and if she and Rhaegar already failed to prevent that one would very much assume that she would do everything in her power to prevent the death of another brother.

But then, perhaps Lyanna was in the end Rhaegar's hostage as well as his lover. I mean, the fact that she didn't accompany Rhaegar to the Trident (easily doable if she had avoided Aerys and KL) to help prevent the final battle and that she apparently also failed to dissuade Rhaegar from leading an army against her brother and Robert suggests that her influence over Rhaegar was pretty much nonexistent at this point.

The Lyanna that was introduced in ADwD (in the vision) and ASoS (in Meera's story) clearly would have acted much differently in all of that if she had been able to.

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7 hours ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

You seem to feel very sure about when Jon was born, but I've never run across anything indicating this. Could you please provide textual evidence for this statement?

GRRM said so in a ssm. That is why I am sure. Of course he can change his mind whenever he wants. 

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

1. We don't know. The idea that they met them to prevent Ned from coming back with reinforcements is not exactly convincing, though. If Ned had intended to go there with a bigger party he would have done so. He could have gone there with his entire army, after all.

I'm inclined to believe that it may make some sense to assume that Ned did not fight against the Kingsguard when he arrived at the tower.

2. We don't know when exactly Jon was born nor how old he was when Ned arrived there. If he was already months old I'm not willing to believe they had been at the tower for a long time. Assuming he was there at all - which isn't clear yet (all we know for a certainty is that Lyanna was there). We also don't know how Wylla or a different wetnurse enters into the picture. Strictly speaking Lyanna may not have thought she needed such a woman because, you know, she was young and had swollen breasts herself, presumably.

3. The idea that the gang hid at the tower for a year or even many months makes little sense. But technically Rhaegar could have used the KG as servants and grooms. They were sworn to obey, after all. And without their white cloaks they wouldn't have been all that conspicuous. Rhaegar himself would have to stay out of sight, though.

4. That is a core problem in the theory that the fight happened before Lyanna died. The KG would have been acting rather weird killing the Lyanna's brother, especially if that guy had made it pretty clear that he was not there to do them or their charges any harm. One can try to explain away those discrepancies but nobody has done this convincingly up to this point. You end up with strange scenarios like the KGs 'protecting the king' or Ned obviously being a threat to his own nephew or sister.

I had this discussion a couple of times at is really breathtaking how people can re-imagine and recreate Lyanna's character to fit there present need. A girl who stands up for Howland and participates in a tourney as a mystery knight wouldn't stand meekly by while three men sworn to protect her are butchering her own brother and his/her close friends - among them the very Howland Reed she once stood up for. I mean, that fact is really glaring there, but nobody seems to notice that.

In addition Lyanna would also have had very strong problems with the murders of her father and brother. That should have cast a huge shadow over her relationship with Rhaegar early on, and if she and Rhaegar already failed to prevent that one would very much assume that she would do everything in her power to prevent the death of another brother.

But then, perhaps Lyanna was in the end Rhaegar's hostage as well as his lover. I mean, the fact that she didn't accompany Rhaegar to the Trident (easily doable if she had avoided Aerys and KL) to help prevent the final battle and that she apparently also failed to dissuade Rhaegar from leading an army against her brother and Robert suggests that her influence over Rhaegar was pretty much nonexistent at this point.

The Lyanna that was introduced in ADwD (in the vision) and ASoS (in Meera's story) clearly would have acted much differently in all of that if she had been able to.

I do not think lyanna is a hostage or prisoner in the end. 

She clearly was still mad in love with rhaegar and held his gift when she died. If it is not for the sake of protecting central mystery, I am sure GRRM would let lyanna whisper rhaegar's name at death too. If rhaegar refused her begging and locked her in the tower and went out to kill ned against her will, i do not think lyanna would be so much love in rhaegar. 

Only thing I can say is that lyanna is likely like the original sansa, chose to side with rhaegar and agree that a battle to defeat rebellion is the best way to protect rhaegar, herself and jon. It seems to be clear that if rebellion wins, then rhaegar will likely die, jon will likely be aborted or killed, lyanna will have to marry Robert. She compared these with the possible deaths of ned and Robert, then she chose the latter because at this moment rhaegar and their baby means more to her. Like Medea. 

 

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10 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

TOJ is likely the most mysterious and weird place in westeros. 

So many confusing things happened here. 

I have a few of them which I have no idea why, maybe we can have a systematic analysis here. 

1. TOJ is a watch tower (1)made of stone. Why did three KG stand in front of tower to openly meet ned, in stead of using the tower as a shelter and defense? (Except GRRM wanted them to have an epic talk) 

2. (2)Jon was a couple of months old by then. He can be sent to somewhere else since Ned did so soon after.  Dany also can be carried away immediately after birth. So this is not a big problem. I understand lyanna is sick so she can not travel, so why did not KG send baby jon with wet nurse to somewhere else like starfall or dragonstone so that they do not need to fight with ned until death? Jon is much safer without lyanna since the rebellion is only looking for lyanna. And rebellion people would certainly not harm lyanna. 

3. (3)What happened to the servants in TOJ? There must be a few of them to cook and clean. They all know Jon's parentage. In fact, they know much more than howland reed. (Unless they have no idea who are rhaegar, lyanna, arthur dayne and white bull for one year, And they all use fake names and rhaegar dyed his hair and KG hid their white cloak for one year) Were they all killed by ned? 

4. Lyanna is sick, but she can talk. KG fought with ned, either ned was killed( actually he was almost killed), or KG were killed. Why did not she stop them from killing each other? So she is ok with that KG tried to kill ned? I think she had power over KG since she is supposed to be rhaegar's lover/wife/crown princess/mother of king/princess regent of king jon targaryen. Even she is nothing but a mistress, she can still threaten KG by saying: if you fight with him, I will kill myself! Then they will agree because rhaegar asked them to guard her. 

 

(1) How do you know?

(2) How do you know?

(3) Why must there be servants?

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The text is clear that onlytwo people leave the tower after it was torn down...not two and a baby, not two and midwife, not two and a goat, not two and a corpse...two...howland and ned...and they went to starfall...lyanna and jon could not be in the tower..it requires to many logistical hurdles to explain why they would choose such a stupid place for a birth that was important enough to tear the country apart..

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3 minutes ago, Regular John Umber said:

(1) How do you know?

(2) How do you know?

(3) Why must there be servants?

Because ned tore it down to build eight tombs with "bloody stones". 

Because GRRM said jon was born during the sack of KL. And ned can not fly to strom's end to lift the siege and then fly to TOJ to meet lyanna. 

Because it does not sound like rhaegar, lyanna and three KG would cook meals, clean the room, purchase living necessities and deal with their chamber pots by themselves For one year. So somebody had to do this for them. 

 

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GRRM never said that Jon was born during the Sack of KL. I looked at "thus spake Martin," and found:

"When was Jon Snow born in relation to the Sack of King's Landing? Around the same time, a month earlier or later?

GRRM stated that he would have to look at his noted to be able to answer but doubted he would answer this question anyway. ;)" http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1274/

Then we have an article which states "We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack." http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

So Jon can be anywhere from one day old to one month old (give or take lol) when Ned and his men arrive at toj. From that point on, I'll make guesses:

2. Lyanna was still in her "bed of blood," so Jon couldn't be a couple of months old at this point. The guard might want to send him away, but haven't had the time/guard didn't know about Ned's arrival, figured it would be safer for the baby to be a bit older before going on a long trip to Starfall, etc.

1. If Lyanna had recently given birth and dying, the guard couldn't afford a siege. They may have believed that they could take on Ned and his men. They almost did, btw.

3. We have warriors and a wolf-blooded Lyanna, all of whom wanted to keep their location a secret. They might have been roughing it--no servants. The text says that there were only two people in the tower after Lyanna's death, though I find it difficult to believe that they would not have a wet nurse (Willa) and a maester, both of whom could keep their mouths shut.

4. Lyanna was in her bed of blood, feverish, dying. She might not have been conscious enough to order the guard. btw there could be some truth to Ned's fever dream: Maybe Lyanna did wake up at some point and see what was going on. Maybe she did scream. She was certainly awake enough to speak with Ned afterwards.

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2 minutes ago, kimim said:

Then we have an article which states "We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack." http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

And even that is misleading because what GRRM actually said in "that e-mail" is this: 

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All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

GRRM's statement doesn't really have the ring of precision here -- "probably", "closer", "eight or nine", "thereabouts". Which part of that was a definitive point on the timeline? Really all we know for sure is that Jon wasn't born more than one year before Dany, anything past that is speculative, even on GRRM's part.

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