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Can you answer these questions about TOJ?


purple-eyes

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23 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

The text is clear that onlytwo people leave the tower after it was torn down...not two and a baby, not two and midwife, not two and a goat, not two and a corpse...two...howland and ned...and they went to starfall...lyanna and jon could not be in the tower..it requires to many logistical hurdles to explain why they would choose such a stupid place for a birth that was important enough to tear the country apart..

To be fair, he said only two men walked out of toj alive. So baby, wet nurse or even one or two female servants did not count. 

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25 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

(1) Because ned tore it down to build eight tombs with "bloody stones". 

(2) Because GRRM said jon was born during the sack of KL. And ned can not fly to strom's end to lift the siege and then fly to TOJ to meet lyanna. 

(3) Because it does not sound like rhaegar, lyanna and three KG would cook meals, clean the room, purchase living necessities and deal with their chamber pots by themselves For one year. So somebody had to do this for them. 

 

 

(1) Oh, right, duh.

(2) Did he? Where?

(3) That assumes they were living there. There's nothing to suggest that.

 

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1.) Making a mountain of a mole hill. We aren't given exact spatial-temporal detail as to who exactly stood where and when. I don't think this is a big deal. They stood firm in the open perhaps due to a sense of chivalry or honor, their knees don't bend easily and KG do not flee. Also there's no epic speech or fight scene if they hole up. I don't think Ned wanted to do so, given lyanna, but if they gave him no choice Ned could've waited them out so digging in was futile and probably considered beneath KG.

2.) KG oaths to protect king/heir and personal loyalty to Rhaegar likely mean more to them, especially Dayne, than the relationship between the rebel Stark and his sister. They likely swore an oath or rec'd orders to stay with L and J. Sure, there may have been smarter strategic options, but we have to understand these are leaderless characters with imperfect knowledge (even our understanding is questionable) suffering from a coup d'etat and fog of war.

3.) This is a small watchtower, not the red keep. It doesn't require - in fact it defeats  the purpose - of maintaining a low profile to have many servants. We don't know but I guess wylla was there and any other surviving servants would be written off as gossipers - most westerosi nobility have low regard for lowborn rumors.

4.) See number 2. Sure, lyanna likely had some influence with KG, but not enough to prevent their oaths and duty. Despite being badass warriors, the KG aren't fools and likely know it is over and there is only one honorable way out. If she was in such rough shape and likely to die a suicide threat doesn't mean much. If she was sick enough maybe she couldn't have done so anyway. For all we know the KG could've blamed her for the rebellion and rhaegar's demise and one of them made lyanna's bed of blood. You're overestimating lyanna I think: the bottom line is that she is a female noble hostage in very poor health. Normally while healthy and not desperately afraid for her child, lyanna is a force to be reckoned with but those were not the circumstances in the end.

 The biggest problem that I find in R + L = J is how is L hemorrhagic and bedridden "months" after Jon is born? It doesn't make sense. Either he was born close to the raid on TOJ and GRRM misspoke (maybe post a link to back up the sack of KL as approximate birthday for Jon) or one of the KG killed L. I find the former more likely, but we don't know. Moving her doesn't seem likely either.

Some argue HR somehow saved Ned by negotiating with Dayne so Ned doesn't die and Dayne goes into hiding. This severely underestimates both Dayne and HR. Dayne was RT's best friend most loyal confidant and KG - given he is the "most chivalrous" knight in westeros so I doubt he would sell out his oaths and loyalty for his life. Why then does ashara kill herself? HR somehow helped Ned kill Dayne given his loyalty to the Starks. Crannogmen can fight, they just have a different style.

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Hodor me here...but, what If this tower was simply a stop over on the way back too starfall or on to the ruins of summer hall? Or a port? Or anywhere else but a watch tower in dorne?

Its said Rhaegar named the tower(somewhere?) but what if he did that in anticipation of the birth because it happens too quickly?

Maybe "The tower baby(s)" were born prematurely and all parties were ill prepared? No servants, just riding clothes and moving at speed to get...where?

Lyanna refusing to leave Rhaegar until forced for health reasons fits much more with her earlier strong willed stubbornness I think.  

She was going to the trident with Rhaegar to confront Ned perhaps? To try and stop the war? Or to dragonstone or starfall and then maybe she was in too much pain too ride or became sick and was then stuck at the tower.  (The blood red tears is an interesting little line don't you think?).

Something to consider is the KG sent away everyone but Lyanna and the baby(s) in an effort to conceal them and keep them safe? 

Sending for a wet nurse, a maester etc? Reinforcements? Arthur Dayne was no mans fool and he was in his home Provence, they have to have been caught unaware or he would never have risked his best friends lover by giving birth in a tower that two men and 8 horses could pull down in an afternoon...

 

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7 minutes ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

Hodor me here...but, what If this tower was simply a stop over on the way back too starfall or on to the ruins of summer hall? Or a port? Or anywhere else but a watch tower in dorne?

Its said Rhaegar named the tower(somewhere?) but what if he did that in anticipation of the birth because it happens too quickly?

Maybe "The tower baby(s)" were born prematurely and all parties were ill prepared? No servants, just riding clothes and moving at speed to get...where?

Lyanna refusing to leave Rhaegar until forced for health reasons fits much more with her earlier strong willed stubbornness I think.  

She was going to the trident with Rhaegar to confront Ned perhaps? To try and stop the war? Or to dragonstone or starfall and then maybe she was in too much pain too ride or became sick and was then stuck at the tower.  (The blood red tears is an interesting little line don't you think?).

Something to consider is the KG sent away everyone but Lyanna and the baby(s) in an effort to conceal them and keep them safe? 

Sending for a wet nurse, a maester etc? Reinforcements? Arthur Dayne was no mans fool and he was in his home Provence, they have to have been caught unaware or he would never have rushed his best friends lover by giving birth in a tower that two men and 8 hornets could pull down in an afternoon...

If it was "just a stopover" rhaegar's naming of the place doesn't make sense. Best evidence indicates they were there a while and given lyanna's health, this makes most sense. A bigger more well-defended tower is less discrete, harder to hide at and puts more innocents in robert's wrath.

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2 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

If it was "just a stopover" rhaegar's naming of the place doesn't make sense. Best evidence indicates they were there a while and given lyanna's health, this makes most sense. A bigger more well-defended tower is less discrete, harder to hide at and puts more innocents in robert's wrath.

Unless he named the tower because it was the place where his son was born

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7 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Rhaegar was already dead (trident battle) even at the earliest supposed dates for his son's birth (kings landing sack) so...that doesn't add up either.

sorry I guess I didn't phrase correctly... The ToJ was a "stopover" that became permanent when Lyanna couldn't travel anymore... Rhaegar named it ToJ before he left... but that may not work timeline wise

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11 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

sorry I guess I didn't phrase correctly... The ToJ was a "stopover" that became permanent when Lyanna couldn't travel anymore... Rhaegar named it ToJ before he left... but that may not work timeline wise

Maybe, we don't really know...it seems simpler to take the writing at face value - rhaegar named it TOJ for the "time spent" with lyanna and it was a long term, isolated place to take refuge. also besides flimsy prophecy there is no way rhaegar knew he would have a son.

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Just now, OwloftheRainwood said:

Maybe, we don't really know...it seems simpler to take the writing at face value - rhaegar named it TOJ for the "time spent" with lyanna and it was a long term, isolated place to take refuge.

fair enough... I don't really have a horse in this race, just playing devil's advocate

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Just now, OwloftheRainwood said:

NBD - I've seen devil's advocates make far worse, tinfoilier arguments that this...the timeline just doesn't seem to match.

TBH, I agree with you that it is because of a time spent with Lyanna type of deal - so we are probably both wrong lol

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I think they stayed in that tower most of the time. It does not look like they have been to somewhere else. Rhaegar named it likely due to his personal joy to have sweet honeymoon with lyanna plus his ultimate joy to fulfil his holy prophecy. 

Although it is ironic that rhaegar and lyanna's "joy" only lasted for a few months then lyanna faced deaths of her father, brother, lover and herself. I am curious about her feeling when she heard about deaths of Rickard and brandon. Was she guilty or she felt rhaegar's love is worthy for these? 

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12 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

1. TOJ is a watch tower made of stone. Why did three KG stand in front of tower to openly meet ned, in stead of using the tower as a shelter and defense? (Except GRRM wanted them to have an epic talk) 

2. Jon was a couple of months old by then. He can be sent to somewhere else since Ned did so soon after.  Dany also can be carried away immediately after birth. So this is not a big problem. I understand lyanna is sick so she can not travel, so why did not KG send baby jon with wet nurse to somewhere else like starfall or dragonstone so that they do not need to fight with ned until death? Jon is much safer without lyanna since the rebellion is only looking for lyanna. And rebellion people would certainly not harm lyanna. 

3. What happened to the servants in TOJ? There must be a few of them to cook and clean. They all know Jon's parentage. In fact, they know much more than howland reed. (Unless they have no idea who are rhaegar, lyanna, arthur dayne and white bull for one year, And they all use fake names and rhaegar dyed his hair and KG hid their white cloak for one year) Were they all killed by ned? 

4. Lyanna is sick, but she can talk. KG fought with ned, either ned was killed( actually he was almost killed), or KG were killed. Why did not she stop them from killing each other? So she is ok with that KG tried to kill ned? I think she had power over KG since she is supposed to be rhaegar's lover/wife/crown princess/mother of king/princess regent of king jon targaryen. Even she is nothing but a mistress, she can still threaten KG by saying: if you fight with him, I will kill myself! Then they will agree because rhaegar asked them to guard her. 

1:My guess would be over confidence. These were arguably the 3 best fighters in the land. They thought they would win and almost did.

2: Jon is at most 2 weeks old. Most likely Lyanna died from puerperal fever which generally effects women anywhere from 24hrs to 10 days after childbirth.

3: There were most likely servants at the Tower, but they might not know about Rhaegar and / or Lyanna. They might have been brought in after Rhaegar left. Some of them might have only come when Lyanna was close to birth. some of them might have never gone to Lyanna's room and only stayed on the lower level. But yes, there is a chance that at least some of them know, especially if it was Wylaa that was there.

My guess is that Ned (being honorable) let them go, hoping that they did not realize how important the people/ events of the Tower were. Maybe paid them off?

4: She is too weak to leave her bed. Even if she could speak, the King's Guard are not going to listen to her when it come to the safety of the King. Ned is a leader of the Rebellion, the same ones that just killed Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaeneys, Aegon and Elia. There is no way, whether Ned has a good reputation or not, that they are letting him get with in 100 feet of that baby.

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2 hours ago, house of dayne said:

The text is clear that onlytwo people leave the tower after it was torn down...not two and a baby, not two and midwife, not two and a goat, not two and a corpse...two...howland and ned...and they went to starfall...lyanna and jon could not be in the tower..it requires to many logistical hurdles to explain why they would choose such a stupid place for a birth that was important enough to tear the country apart..

But "they" found him at Lyanna's bedside.  That implies at least one more person than Howland.

Quote

"They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief."

 

And "bloody bed" and "bed of blood" are euphemisms for childbirth.  Someone's already pointed it out here, and pulled the quotes.  It's on the first page here.  That's not to say there wasn't *any* blood in the room - but it is also a euphemism, used frequently in the books, even in a context where the mother doesn't die (there is blood involved even in a successful birth for mother and baby).  Basically, don't forget the euphemism even *when/if* the term "bloody bed" is meant to be literal.  Hell, if the wind was blowing the right direction, it might just smell bloody because of all the dead people outside and Ned's use of "bloody bed'" is a euphemism and not a literal bed covered in blood.  And unless she's hemorrhaging the bed won't be *covered* in blood - it would be more like waking up to a heavy period. Some bleeding while giving birth is normal, having a bed covered in blood would be hemorrhaging - and if she's hemorrhaging, she's not going to live long enough to get a fever!  She'd be hard-pressed to live through the fight if she's hemorrhaging.  In that vein, waking up to a heavy period *can* make the room smell like blood, too - so even a little bit of blood can still account for the smell Ned notes. 

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6 hours ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

Dornishdame, you're right in that Lyanna was not necessarily giving birth as the battle was fought outside her window. I do not, however, believe that she lived for many days; likely hours or maybe a day at most. The reason is because she evidently did not, as you astutely observed, die of a fever. Ned repeatedly refers to Lyanna lying in a "bed of blood."

For someone who has been away at war for the past year and then just fought another bloody battle, I believe it's significant that Ned is struck by the amount of blood surrounding his sister. That's not normal, that's hemhorrhaging; and women even today do not survive that for long without immediate critical care. BTDT myself, unfortunately. It moves FAST. 

I also think that's why his memories of their last conversation are so fraught and, from her side, desperate. She NEEDS to know that Ned agrees to do as she asks with the baby, and that once his word is given she can let go. It's one of the most heartbreaking scenarios in the story to me, and I understand why Ned would insist on destroying the place where it happened. 

 

6 hours ago, sarah.jenice said:

Just saw a great post about bloody bed being a euphemism for childbirth in another thread that I replied to.

Here it is (Topic - Jon was born in starfall):

This. Great explanation, too.

It does seem like there actually is/was blood in the room Lyanna died in from some of Ned's other thoughts, which so often include some sort of blood reference/imagery: 

This is what I should have/meant to add to what I said in my initial post!! Bed of blood is, as far as I can tell, used to refer to childbed generally. There is this example from The Prophet, Aeron Greyjoy's first chapter in Feast

Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. 

I understood between that quote and those relating to Lyanna and her bed of blood/room that smelled of blood and roses, that bed of blood was essentially a term used to refer to childbirth and childbed. Additionally, Ned thinks in Eddard I in Thrones that a fever was responsible for Lyanna's death - 

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

Given that Ned thinks of her fever - rather than speaking about it to Robert - I am inclined to think that it was some sort of puerperal (childbed) fever that killed Lyanna rather than her losing excessive amounts of blood. I think when Robert asked how he died, Ned was able to tell the truth about her cause of death - Lyanna died of a fever. What he will have neglected to tell Robert is the type of fever. It enables him to tell the truth and cover up her cause of death at the same time.  And, with Ned having been at war for a year, the smell of blood and the smell of death may be the same thing to him - and so what he actually smells is death and roses rather than blood and roses.  

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1. They were protecting the secrets inside the tower.  The point being, they had to kill Ned and the men with him, not simply defend themselves.  If they turtled up Ned might send for Robert and Jon would be killed.  

2. Jon was IMO born only days before Ned arrives.  It's possible they had decided to wait until Lyanna dies or recovers to move her and Jon.  I agree it would have been prudent to move Jon sooner but my guess is that Lyanna was strongly opposed and the KG being generally decent were willing to honor the wishes of an apparently dying woman.  

3. Wylla was probably there, likely fetched from Starfall with Asharas cooperation and knowledge.  I think that 1 servant for four people is plenty for the short term.  Probably they had supplies delivered somewhere nearby and went incognito to retrieve them (again probably with Asharas help).  Lyanna and Rhaegar certainly stayed hidden at all times.

4.  While Lyanna can talk I'm assuming at this point she can't move.  So, two possibilities.  Either the KG prevented Lyanna from knowing Ned was there (let her assume these are mere assassins), or she knew he was there but they ignored her and she couldn't speak to Ned.  Either way the KG were concerned about a worst case scenario that Ned would act just like Tywin or Robert would and have the child killed.  They didn't know Ned or his character personally, and they have no certainty about the men with him.

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52 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

1. They were protecting the secrets inside the tower.  The point being, they had to kill Ned and the men with him, not simply defend themselves.  If they turtled up Ned might send for Robert and Jon would be killed. 

This right here is a great answer, and make a ton of sense.

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4 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

And "bloody bed" and "bed of blood" are euphemisms for childbirth.  Someone's already pointed it out here, and pulled the quotes.  It's on the first page here.  That's not to say there wasn't *any* blood in the room - but it is also a euphemism, used frequently in the books, even in a context where the mother doesn't die (there is blood involved even in a successful birth for mother and baby). 

This is well-established. "Bloody bed"/"bed of blood" (BB) are euphemisms generally. However, that in no way precludes Lyanna's "bed of blood" (child-birth bed) from literally being a bloody bed. Where else does the euphemism come from if there are no literal cases of this occurring? Whereas BB is used in passing many times, GRRM does not beat us over the head with it, but Ned's POV uses the BB imagery over and over, making me think that this was a bloody scene. For a room to "smell" like blood, there's got to be a lot of it. It is impossible, in my view, that Jon was born "months" before the raid at TOJ. purple-eyes claimed that GRRM said Jon was born during the sack of KL, months before TOJ, but hasn't provided a source.

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

They were protecting the secrets inside the tower.

Maybe. I think your following sentence is a better explanation: it is likely they knew if they dug in Robert would show up and they would all be dead anyway, including Jon, their charge. 7 v 3 is a lot better odds than 100s v 3. These are practical reasons. We want to make up all kinds of unnecessary, scandalous motivations because it's fun and with GRRM things aren't always as they seem. However, the KG explain their motivations to Ned when he arrives: KG don't run, and their knees don't bend. They were intensely devoted to RT, especially Dayne, and saw themselves as exercising their duty. I think they knew the Targ dynasty was essentially over and they were exiting the fight honorably. They certainly tried to protect a secret ie Jon but once it became obvious that was no longer going to be a secret, they fulfilled their duty. What other "secrets" do you propose they were protecting?

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1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

1. They were protecting the secrets inside the tower.  The point being, they had to kill Ned and the men with him, not simply defend themselves.  If they turtled up Ned might send for Robert and Jon would be killed.  

2. Jon was IMO born only days before Ned arrives.  It's possible they had decided to wait until Lyanna dies or recovers to move her and Jon.  I agree it would have been prudent to move Jon sooner but my guess is that Lyanna was strongly opposed and the KG being generally decent were willing to honor the wishes of an apparently dying woman.  

3. Wylla was probably there, likely fetched from Starfall with Asharas cooperation and knowledge.  I think that 1 servant for four people is plenty for the short term.  Probably they had supplies delivered somewhere nearby and went incognito to retrieve them (again probably with Asharas help).  Lyanna and Rhaegar certainly stayed hidden at all times.

4.  While Lyanna can talk I'm assuming at this point she can't move.  So, two possibilities.  Either the KG prevented Lyanna from knowing Ned was there (let her assume these are mere assassins), or she knew he was there but they ignored her and she couldn't speak to Ned.  Either way the KG were concerned about a worst case scenario that Ned would act just like Tywin or Robert would and have the child killed.  They didn't know Ned or his character personally, and they have no certainty about the men with him.

I am talking about they used watchtower to facilitate the fighting. Such as using arrows from the windows, guard the entrance so that they only need to face one person at one time, etc. either way, tower is an advantage, just like nobody will go out to fight in the open field if they have an castle to use. 

They send jon away, then jon has a much higher chance to escape since robert and Ned only looked for lyanna. I guess lyanna can understand this, just like Elia would agree to smuggle aegon out from her. It is not about some wish of dying mother. It is for safety. 

And one female servant for four people does not sound enough. Somebody needs to help with their horses and armors, etc. they would need some men. 

It sounds quite silly that they know rebellion will try their best to find lyanna and they worried rebellion will kill jon but they still keep them together. They are basically telling the rebellion that lyanna got a baby from rhaegar and the baby is right here. It does not make sense at all. 

Instead they can, for example, let dayne bring jon to starfall, then even rebellion found lyanna, they had no idea where jon is. 

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