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The Littlefinger Enigma!


Neds Secret

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I wonder why none of the other members of the small council are suspicious when the "master of coin" runs around telling people not to trust him. Indeed why are no other characters even a little bit concerned when they all realise how devious and dishonest littlefinger is and yet he is basically the federal treasurer! Littlefinger is not just just in charge of a Bernie madoff type Ponzi hedge fund, he is in charge of the entire countries finances and it seems nobody stops to think he might be devious and dishonest but he would never embezzle! Does anybody ever say hey times are good but we are in record debt to both the iron bank and the Lannisters, what gives? Am I missing something??

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I think the genaral opinion was that LF actually did a good job bringing in more money than his predecessors. It was Robert who managed to spend even more. So guess they all thought debt would be far bigger if it wasn't for LF.

As for being devious and not to be trusted... isn't that common in the small council? 

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4 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

I wonder why none of the other members of the small council are suspicious when the "master of coin" runs around telling people not to trust him. Indeed why are no other characters even a little bit concerned when they all realise how devious and dishonest littlefinger is and yet he is basically the federal treasurer! Littlefinger is not just just in charge of a Bernie madoff type Ponzi hedge fund, he is in charge of the entire countries finances and it seems nobody stops to think he might be devious and dishonest but he would never embezzle! Does anybody ever say hey times are good but we are in record debt to both the iron bank and the Lannisters, what gives? Am I missing something??

One of the most important points regarding Littlefinger, in the eyes of those at court, is that he inexplicably comes through with money when it's needed. Littlefinger may be recognized as manipulative and conniving, but he's also recognized as being very good at his job. Cognitive dissonance on this topic isn't unusual. People absolutely recognize that the crown's in debt to both the Lannisters - who, considering they are the crown now, don't care - and the Iron Bank - whom Cersei effectively actively tells to go fuck themselves - so it's not as though it's unknown. I think it boils down to pragmatism. Further, for all of this shenanigans, he does come through both economically and diplomatically. Consider that he solidified the alliance with the Tyrells, post Renly's death, which had a large effect on the outcome of the Blackwater.

And, as I'm always wont to point out, many people had "more important" (re: more self-serving) issues to think about. Few were worried about the finances of the kingdom.

Finally, I would also underline that since AGoT started, the small council hasn't been a stable group of people for very long. There's been a quick turnover on almost every position, as well as a war, leaving few people time to look at Littlefinger's tenure as master of coin.

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Littlefinger had the ear of Robert who greatly relied on him in the copper counting department, and also seems to have had the trust of Jon Arryn (who would have suggested him for the office in the first place) and the friendship of Renly. That is more than enough to be in a secure position.

Later on Tyrion greatly distrusted him but had no opportunity to dismiss and replace him in the middle of a war.

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Littlefinger was doing a great job as Master of Coin as far as anybody could tell , there was no reason to think that anything shady was going on . He paid the bills on time , the creditors were all being paid and he increased the Crown's revenue 10 times. Civil War can be devastating to any economy and Littlefinger created an economy that even more susceptible  to the devastation of a Civil War (which was probably his plan all along ). 

He creates an economy that cannot survive a prolonged civil war and then he starts the civil war and gets out of the job before everything goes to hell. His hands are clean and nobody knows what he's done (Cersei still wants him back on the Small Council) and he probably also made a fortune on the way . The only person that suspected anything (Tyrion)  was framed for murder and is now an exile (probably not a coincidence) 

 

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11 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

I wonder why none of the other members of the small council are suspicious when the "master of coin" runs around telling people not to trust him. Indeed why are no other characters even a little bit concerned when they all realise how devious and dishonest littlefinger is and yet he is basically the federal treasurer! Littlefinger is not just just in charge of a Bernie madoff type Ponzi hedge fund, he is in charge of the entire countries finances and it seems nobody stops to think he might be devious and dishonest but he would never embezzle! Does anybody ever say hey times are good but we are in record debt to both the iron bank and the Lannisters, what gives? Am I missing something??

Everyone on the small council is suspicious of everyone else. Of them all, I would say Varys is the only one who knows the true state of the crown's finances, but it works to his favor so he's not going to raise any alarms. Pycelle probably should know, since he most likely has a gold link in his chain, but he's not overseeing the books; and if the crown goes belly up, it will be Littlefinger's fault anyway. Renly probably has no clue, and neither does Selmy.

That leaves Jon Arryn. He was the one who brought LF to King's Landing, and while Arryn probably has a head for figures, the fact is that incomes are up and there is plenty of money for everybody's needs. So as long as LF can make money appear when he needs to, nobody can really criticize him for anything, even if he pockets a little extra for himself.

But I love your last question: "Does anybody every say hey times are good but we are in record debt...?" You might as well ask why nobody is asking that right now in the real world.

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11 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

I wonder why none of the other members of the small council are suspicious when the "master of coin" runs around telling people not to trust him. Indeed why are no other characters even a little bit concerned when they all realise how devious and dishonest littlefinger is and yet he is basically the federal treasurer! Littlefinger is not just just in charge of a Bernie madoff type Ponzi hedge fund, he is in charge of the entire countries finances and it seems nobody stops to think he might be devious and dishonest but he would never embezzle! Does anybody ever say hey times are good but we are in record debt to both the iron bank and the Lannisters, what gives? Am I missing something??

Littlefinger was not running a ponzi scheme . Ponzi schemes are built on non existent enterprises while Littlefinger had thriving businesses that were bringing in massive revenue for the Iron Throne , the problem came when the Civil War disrupted or destroyed  those businesses, the revenue stopped and the iron Throne could no longer make it's  debt payments.  

 

Tyrion sums up Littlefinger's businesses pretty well :

Ten years ago, Jon Arryn had given him minor sinecure in customs, where Lord Petyr had soon distinguished himself by bringing in three times as much as any of the king's other collectors. King Robert had been a prodigious spender. A man like Petyr Baelish, who had a gift for rubbing two golden dragons together to breed a third, was invaluable to his Hand. Littlefinger's rise had been arrow-swift. Within three years of his coming to court he was master of coin and a member of thesmall council, and today the crown's revenues were ten times what they had under his predecessor... through the crown's debt had grown vast as well. A master juggler was Petyr Baelish.

Oh, he was clever. He did not simply collect the gold and lock it in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king's debts in promises, and put the king's gold to work. He bought wagons, shops, ships, houses. He bought grain when it was plentiful and sold bread when it was scarce. He bought wool from the north and linen from the south and lace from Lys, stored it, moved it, dyed it, sold it. The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings.

And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large, merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from the results, far more able than their highborn predecessors.

No one had ever thought to question the appointments, and why should they? Littlefinger was no threat to anyone. A clever, smiling, genial man, everyone's friend, always able to find whatever gold the king or his Hand required, and yet of such undistinguished birth, one step up from a hedge knight, he was not a man to fear. He had no banners to call, no army of retainers, no great stronghold, no holdings to speak of, no prospects of a great marriage.[5]

 

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On 2/10/2016 at 3:11 AM, Neds Secret said:

I wonder why none of the other members of the small council are suspicious when the "master of coin" runs around telling people not to trust him. Indeed why are no other characters even a little bit concerned when they all realise how devious and dishonest littlefinger is and yet he is basically the federal treasurer! Littlefinger is not just just in charge of a Bernie madoff type Ponzi hedge fund, he is in charge of the entire countries finances and it seems nobody stops to think he might be devious and dishonest but he would never embezzle! Does anybody ever say hey times are good but we are in record debt to both the iron bank and the Lannisters, what gives? Am I missing something??

Money talks. LF can come up with the money when the Crown needs it so no questions are asked. It is explained the massive amounts of debt don't occur until Robert takes power. Banks don't have the same role in Westerosi culture as our own, so drawing a neat comparison of LF to a "federal treasurer" only goes so far. So, the first answer is competence. The second answer is that LF isn't taken seriously at first. Many High Lords look down their nose at LF given his low birth, Braavosi heritage and meager lands with no ability to raise forces. Obviously, by ADwD it becomes clear that he is a force to be reckoned with. As others have mentioned, everyone on the small council practices guile, so LF wouldn't be unusual in that regard. That is, it wouldn't throw up the same warning flags for characters with very limited information as it would for readers with far from perfect, but still much more information. We tend to forget this as readers.

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger had the ear of Robert who greatly relied on him in the copper counting department, and also seems to have had the trust of Jon Arryn (who would have suggested him for the office in the first place) and the friendship of Renly. That is more than enough to be in a secure position.

Later on Tyrion greatly distrusted him but had no opportunity to dismiss and replace him in the middle of a war.

How do you figure he has the friendship of Renly? I always considered Renly to be a bit put off by lIttlefinger, but perhaps that's been influenced by the show?

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6 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

How do you figure he has the friendship of Renly? I always considered Renly to be a bit put off by lIttlefinger, but perhaps that's been influenced by the show?

They exchange a lot of friendly jokes in the books and really seem to have the same sort of humor. And then there is the fact that Littlefinger actually suggests to Ned to eventually make Renly king after they have used Joff and the Lannisters to deal with Stannis.

In addition, one of the points Littlefinger makes when he convinces Cersei and Tyrion to send him as Joffrey's envoy to the Tyrells is that he has given Loras no reason to dislike him while he was at court. Littlefinger could only have gotten reasonably close to Loras through Renly, one assumes.

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That's LF's skill - he makes everyone think he's just a clever and efficient Master of Coin with no greater ambition and no family background. Always friendly, agreeable and willing to help. Here's, for example, what Jaime has to say about him:

If someone other than a westerman was needed to appease the Tyrells, there was always Mathis Rowan . . . or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand.

The only ones who truly know how dangerous he is are Tyrion and (presumably) Varys.

 

One the other hand, I do think that LF has lucked out a number of times during his schemes:

  • Tyrion doesn't arrest and kill him during his tenure as a Hand, despite knowing of LF's treacherous dagger lie. Especially weird how Tywin explicitly ordered Tyrion to root out treacherous councilors.
  • He tells Catelyn the dagger lie right in front of Varys, whose goals we know differ from his. I still don't know why Varys, in case he wanted to foil LF's plans, failed to inform Ned of this.
  • LF's entire dagger is credible just so long as Ned or Cat don't double check-it. If Ned had invested 5 minutes of his time into it, anyone in the court could have told him that Tyrion always bet on Jaime.
  • Carrying on the affair with Hand's wife in KL for years. Varys surely knew (but again chose not to act), and given how uncareful and unstable Lysa is, he's lucky that other people on the court didn't realize it.
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27 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

That's LF's skill - he makes everyone think he's just a clever and efficient Master of Coin with no greater ambition and no family background. Always friendly, agreeable and willing to help. Here's, for example, what Jaime has to say about him:

If someone other than a westerman was needed to appease the Tyrells, there was always Mathis Rowan . . . or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand.

The only ones who truly know how dangerous he is are Tyrion and (presumably) Varys.

 

One the other hand, I do think that LF has lucked out a number of times during his schemes:

  • Tyrion doesn't arrest and kill him during his tenure as a Hand, despite knowing of LF's treacherous dagger lie. Especially weird how Tywin explicitly ordered Tyrion to root out treacherous councilors.
  • He tells Catelyn the dagger lie right in front of Varys, whose goals we know differ from his. I still don't know why Varys, in case he wanted to foil LF's plans, failed to inform Ned of this.
  • LF's entire dagger is credible just so long as Ned or Cat don't double check-it. If Ned had invested 5 minutes of his time into it, anyone in the court could have told him that Tyrion always bet on Jaime.
  • Carrying on the affair with Hand's wife in KL for years. Varys surely knew (but again chose not to act), and given how uncareful and unstable Lysa is, he's lucky that other people on the court didn't realize it.

Tyrion actually is unsure whether Cat told him the truth about the dagger - Littlefinger gives nothing away and is so confident that Tyrion second-guesses the whole thing.

But he clearly mistrusts him and takes steps to eventually get rid of him, but he can't in the middle of the war. Sacking Littlefinger would have effectively closed down the treasury, and while the Lannisters have a lot of gold Tywin couldn't really transport any coin to KL prior to the Blackwater - if the Goldcloaks and other key personnel in the city were no longer paid, KL would not be able to withstand a siege even for a day.

There is an explanation why Littlefinger told the dagger lie and why Varys didn't contradict him there. Both men must have known that it was Robert who won the dagger, not Tyrion, and if the Starks learned that it could lead to trouble, too. By the time Littlefinger tells his lie neither he nor Varys knew why Cat wants to know about the dagger, or whether the actual owner of the dagger, Robert, has something to do with it. Presumably they have concluded that Cat's wounds were caused by the dagger, so there was some sort of assassination attempt. But they both have no way to know that Bran didn't just fall or that there was an attempt on his life.

Choosing Tyrion as the culprit is actually pretty smart. He is far away (Littlefinger has to know that Tyrion wasn't with the royal party by then) and thus both he and Varys can convince Cat not to act against him before he returns - or so Littlefinger may have thought (he tries to that later on).

Littlefinger, of course, knows that Cat has read Lysa's letter and already mistrusts the Lannisters - so he reinforces that point with that lie, knowing that she most likely won't confront Tyrion and the Lannisters. Remember, she later only abducts him because Tyrion has seen her own the roan and now knows that she must know about the dagger.

In addition, Varys may actually have conspired with Littlefinger to murder Jon Arryn. Neither of them had anything to gain from the revelation of the incest at this point.

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2 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

One the other hand, I do think that LF has lucked out a number of times during his schemes:

  • Tyrion doesn't arrest and kill him during his tenure as a Hand, despite knowing of LF's treacherous dagger lie. Especially weird how Tywin explicitly ordered Tyrion to root out treacherous councilors.
  • He tells Catelyn the dagger lie right in front of Varys, whose goals we know differ from his. I still don't know why Varys, in case he wanted to foil LF's plans, failed to inform Ned of this.
  • LF's entire dagger is credible just so long as Ned or Cat don't double check-it. If Ned had invested 5 minutes of his time into it, anyone in the court could have told him that Tyrion always bet on Jaime.
  • Carrying on the affair with Hand's wife in KL for years. Varys surely knew (but again chose not to act), and given how uncareful and unstable Lysa is, he's lucky that other people on the court didn't realize it.

Kings Landing was about to be under siege and that's not the best time to get rid of the man who pretty much runs the city and has men in all the key positions , Tyrion figured that after the war he would have time to get rid of Litttlefinger but i did not work out the way he wanted. 

Did Varys want to foil Littlefinger's plans ? frankly the relationship between Varys and Littlefinger was strange all around so Varys may have had his reasons to keep his mouth shut.

Who in the court would be an expert on who Tyrion did or did not bet on during a joust months ago? Who's to say that Tyrion decided to bet against Jaimie that one time? Even if Ned had any evidence the Littlefinger could just say that he was drunk and must have misremembered , 

There really is no reason that Ned would suspect Littlefinger of lying because there would seem to be no reason for it , what would Littlefinger get out of lying except making an enemy of Tyrion.(we as the reader know why Littlefinger lied but there is no way Ned would suspect that)

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One question: The crowns debts are so immense, it seems impossible that Robert could spend this much money on tourneys and feasts. People always say Robert was wasteful, and thats true, but its very clear that LF had more than just a little bit to do with that. Tyrion even know hes been investing lots of gold into private enterprise, is this a usual privilege for the master of coin?

Thats hard to believe, its the crowns money after all. Tyrion as hand thinks he needs LF, so he cant get rid of him, but thats just dodgy. I know LF plays the loyal Lannister servent close to perfection, but this point I could never really wrap my head around.

Maybe there are very few people who really know just how ambitious and deceitful LF is, but it should be obvious to anyone that he´s up to something treacherous. Does no one ever check the books in Westeros?

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58 minutes ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

One question: The crowns debts are so immense, it seems impossible that Robert could spend this much money on tourneys and feasts. People always say Robert was wasteful, and thats true, but its very clear that LF had more than just a little bit to do with that. Tyrion even know hes been investing lots of gold into private enterprise, is this a usual privilege for the master of coin?

Thats hard to believe, its the crowns money after all. Tyrion as hand thinks he needs LF, so he cant get rid of him, but thats just dodgy. I know LF plays the loyal Lannister servent close to perfection, but this point I could never really wrap my head around.

Maybe there are very few people who really know just how ambitious and deceitful LF is, but it should be obvious to anyone that he´s up to something treacherous. Does no one ever check the books in Westeros?

Investing the crown gold is exactly what would be expected of the Master of Coin.  Investing is how you make more money, and the Crown always needs more money (no matter how wasteful the King is). 

And no - the Master of Coin is the one who checks the books.  Everyone else has their own duties that the Master of Coin doesn't interfere with and it is expected that no one will interfere with the Master of Coin's duties.

Accountability is (and historically, has been) lacking in monarchies.  We've certainly gotten better, but we're still a long way off from *full* accountability IRL.  Just look at all the bail-outs in 2008/2009.  No accountability there - hell, the only people who lost their jobs were the people who had no say in decisions in the first place!  So no - no one would be expected to "check" LF's books.  It was LF's job, and he was left to it.

 

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But I love your last question: "Does anybody every say hey times are good but we are in record debt...?" You might as well ask why nobody is asking that right now in the real world

^^ hehehe ^^ YEP!  Quite standard, historically.  The Romans managed to not ask that question for centuries!  We're doing pretty good ignoring it, too.  Not that surprising that the Westerosi weren't asking it!

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2 hours ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

Maybe there are very few people who really know just how ambitious and deceitful LF is, but it should be obvious to anyone that he´s up to something treacherous. Does no one ever check the books in Westeros?

It seems like Varys is the only one who has a clue about how ambitious and deceitful LF , everyone one else just is incapable( because of their prejudices against the "small" folk) of  thinking  that Littlefinger could possibly be a threat. 

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5 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Kings Landing was about to be under siege and that's not the best time to get rid of the man who pretty much runs the city and has men in all the key positions , Tyrion figured that after the war he would have time to get rid of Litttlefinger but i did not work out the way he wanted. 

Did Varys want to foil Littlefinger's plans ? frankly the relationship between Varys and Littlefinger was strange all around so Varys may have had his reasons to keep his mouth shut.

Who in the court would be an expert on who Tyrion did or did not bet on during a joust months ago? Who's to say that Tyrion decided to bet against Jaimie that one time? Even if Ned had any evidence the Littlefinger could just say that he was drunk and must have misremembered , 

There really is no reason that Ned would suspect Littlefinger of lying because there would seem to be no reason for it , what would Littlefinger get out of lying except making an enemy of Tyrion.(we as the reader know why Littlefinger lied but there is no way Ned would suspect that)

Also note that Tyrion doesn't want to simply expose LF's role in the dagger indecent, but to utterly destroy him politically, financially and reputationally. So after the war Tyrion is going to look into the books, dig into his past, find someway to gain leverage over him and then taste the sweet cold dish of revenge has his head goes bouncing across the floor -- that is, as long as LF doesn't do that to Tyrion first.

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2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It seems like Varys is the only one who has a clue about how ambitious and deceitful LF , everyone one else just is incapable( because of their prejudices against the "small" folk) of  thinking  that Littlefinger could possibly be a threat.

Very true, I think a lot of the High Lords just write off LF especially early on. Maybe the Vale nobility sees it now.

37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Also note that Tyrion doesn't want to simply expose LF's role in the dagger indecent, but to utterly destroy him politically, financially and reputationally. So after the war Tyrion is going to look into the books, dig into his past, find someway to gain leverage over him and then taste the sweet cold dish of revenge has his head goes bouncing across the floor -- that is, as long as LF doesn't do that to Tyrion first.

This is a very interesting relationship, LF and Tyrion both have elite minds and political skills. I don't know whose head I would like to see roll if forced to choose, probably LF. Tyrion could hook up with Dany in the long run, and he's had some pretty low points already, whereas LF has done some betraying and hasn't yet answered for it, but who knows?

5 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

frankly the relationship between Varys and Littlefinger was strange all around so Varys may have had his reasons to keep his mouth shut

I couldn't figure this out, either. Maybe there is/was an alliance or conflict behind the scenes we find out about later...complete speculation.

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