Who was Jaquen supposed to kill?

[dariopatke]

glass candles or some other magic trick? Maybe they have some sort of face-net so they can read even rogue ones thoughts

(actually, i don't remember him knowing her name)

I don't see how this Braavosi ship is different from any other, they are afraid of FM so they tell Arya their names. more of a typical "hero-should-conveniately reach some place and get some exposition on the road"- coincidence.

Maybe that thing about reading minds, but I think it is just too much.

He asked her to tell him her name until she said Arya Stark.

If Braavosi captain dislikes FM he wont take her to Braavos, it is obvious that she doesn't know anything about FM or very little so he can reject her or show her to Sealord and not smuglle her to Braavos.

[Shuvuuia]

24 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Maybe that thing about reading minds, but I think it is just too much.

He asked her to tell him her name until she said Arya Stark.

ah, if that, then no need for magic at all - I see it as he is just very good (after training so many FM), maybe somewhat supernaturally good, at reading people, when they lie, when they tell the truth. That's part of Arya's training - to lie very good and take new identity.

(i don't really see how reading minds is more plausible than glass candles or other magical device, even if i suggested it myself)

24 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

If Braavosi captain dislikes FM he wont take her to Braavos, it is obvious that she doesn't know anything about FM or very little so he can reject her or show her to Sealord and not smuglle her to Braavos.

he doesn't have to dislike them, but he doesn't need to work for them. I see it as a simple case of a protagonist gets lucky (similar to how Brienne gets to meet Gendry, for example, when he could've been away that day or how Jon has a conveniant spare baby to switch, Jorah stumbles upon Tyrion). Besides, I don't see any knowledgeable Braavosi risking to cross FM - we know Arya doesn't know anything, but for them - what if it's a FM playing a role of a little girl? And they seem to be bound by some custom to provide FM with their service when shown a coin, a tradition.

 

I'm not sure if Jaquen is rogue or faithfully works for the HoBaW, but him communicating with them in some twitter-like manner (i know i proposed glass candles, but no evidence for that, and it was because i thought I missed him knowing Arya's name beforehand ) to provide them with one too young apprentance seems meh from the storytelling point (same as Bloodraven wargs everything). Jaquen as sort-of mentor who stirs Arya in one direction and she gets there by herself, through her character journey, is much more interesting.

 

[dariopatke]

After all we have seen in series, nothing would surprise me, but I kinda wish that we have no other magical stuff, ice demons who can raise corpses, ride undead horses and ice spiders, resurection, killing people with leeches full of kings blood, dragons, blood magic, shadowbinders, glass candlles, men who change their faces like socks, wargs, children 200 old and guy who can see everything via threes are enough for my taste.

But I see that Arya is equally Arya Stark and Weasel and Nan and Arri and all other names, these names take part of her and she is all of them and no one of them so when she sais some of that name it is as thrutful as Arya Stark.

Good point on ship, I agree here, and also Wyman had a prusoner who looked like Davos, Cat run on Tyrion, boar found Robert,...

I proposed that Jaquen was sent to take a Stark, maybe she is more than a too young apprentice, if not how she gets promoted after every mistake?

[BalerionTheCat]

What Jaqen was doing in the black cells is uncertain. But I think we should take into account his presence in Oldtown, and probably Pyke too. Pyke at least seems related to Euron. Maybe Oldtown too, if Euron needs some rare book hidden in the Citadel. And if Jaqen indeed works for Euron. His presence in KL could be similar to Pyke, to kill Robert for example and pave the way for Euron. Or he was searching for something in the level below the black cells.

I'm also a bit suspicious of the attention the Faceless Men are giving to Arya. Or maybe the Starks in general. And how Euron could commit the FM so much to his goal. I don't think a dragon's egg is enough to pay for what Euron demands.

[JaegrM]

There's too much unknown about Jaqen to be certain of anything.

Rorge, Biter and Jaqen were scheduled to be released from the black cells and sent to the wall while Ned was still Hand. No way they could have predicted Ned being sent to the wall with them, or even that Yoren would show up and take them from the blackcells.
When Jaime is interviewing Longwaters about Tyrion's escape he's told that "For a time" the blackcells held the three of them, to me at least implying they'd all been there for some time. He also said he advised against releasing those three, again implying to me that it was not typical to send people in that level to the wall.
When he talks to Arya he invokes the name of the Red God, not the Many Faced God.
Is he a convert? Is he only mentioning the red god because of the fire related deaths? if this was the case wouldn't he have burned Arya's victims?
He HAS to have names of people Arya wants killed, compared to later on when Arya is on The Titan's Daughter and in the House of Black and White where it's implied that knowing a person's name makes them off limits to that particular FM.
All of this leads me to believe he's gone rogue....
HOWEVER, I find it very unlikely that the Alchemist is anyone other than Jaqen, the description is too perfect to be anyone else, and it seems like he is acting with a strong sense of purpose, like he's on the job.

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

Quote

20 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Jaquen had a help from Rorge and Biter and they were together in black cells which implicates they were imprisoned for the same crime that can lead to the fact that they are FM, too. Or at least connected to them somehow. Now, why would they get themselves into black cells? I really see only one version, they needed to go to Wall or North. One may argue that it is easier for them to go straight to the Wall but what would Lorathi do there? Serve his duty to 7K? Not likely.

It is interesting that they started to plot against Joren, to kill him and be free and it was done in Riverlands. If you consider that, they didnt want to go there at first place, but if their goal was to go somewhere north they could just do it right away, it is equally strange to se Lorathi in RL or North by his will just as it is as a NW deserter (it was peace when they were imprisoned).

So they didnt want do go to the Wall but they had to be wih Joren?

Who was possible target? A FM and two assiastants should kill someone huge, but who could that be?

Tywin? No, because he had a chance to kill him at HH.

Kids of Winterfell? Not likely because the way they treated Arya, but they may have had some goals with them and they just abandoned their mission to the Wall (maybe WF was a destination) and they got satisfied when they got Arya, their blood is very powerfull Stark+Whent.

Aemon? I just find it hilarious to for them to send three men to kill a 100 yo bylind man.

Bloodraven? Preston included this in FM theory and it kinda makes sense, but on the other hand it doesnt. It is obvious everyone thinks he is dead, they all need to become rangers and go North of the Wall to search for him which includes so much time, for that mission they can just land at Hardhome and go searching, I just dont find this likely but it makes some sense to a certain degree.

What do you think about his/their mission?

 

 

I think we can completely leave Bloodraven out of this. Nobody knows he is alive in the first place, everybody thinks he is dead for 50 years, everybody who knew him is dead. Even if Aemon knew about him (which is not likely) he has no reason to kill him/tell anyone. Also. he "lives" in a magically sealed giant cave system and nobody knows where it lies. Also, as far as we know he can't do anything dangerous but peep on other people. There is no possible way anybody knows about him or has valid reason to have him killed.

[Light a wight tonight]

20 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Biter and Rorge are dead. They were never knowing accomplices of Jaqen, as far as I've seen. The questions are more appropriate for who Jaqen was sent to kill. Call me stupid, but I got the feeling he may have been keeping an eye on Arya.

It does seem like he was protecting Arya on some level, as it seemed like the Kindly Man was expecting her. I'm not big on conspiracies but this seems a bit beyond coincidental to me.

[JaegrM]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

It does seem like he was protecting Arya on some level, as it seemed like the Kindly Man was expecting her. 

I have to disagree, it was handled more or less professionally the whole way through, with the exception of the recruitment at the end of their business transaction.
But we hear from the kindly man how rare it is to have someone so young, especially such a young GIRL.
I propose there was no special protection for Arya, just the observed potential of a young psychologically damaged girl who could become a valuable agent

I also don't see the Kindly Man as having been expecting her, he's just intelligent and an expert at telling truth from lies.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

3 hours ago, DasallmaechtigeJ said:

 

I think we can completely leave Bloodraven out of this. Nobody knows he is alive in the first place, everybody thinks he is dead for 50 years, everybody who knew him is dead. Even if Aemon knew about him (which is not likely) he has no reason to kill him/tell anyone. Also. he "lives" in a magically sealed giant cave system and nobody knows where it lies. Also, as far as we know he can't do anything dangerous but peep on other people. There is no possible way anybody knows about him or has valid reason to have him killed.

There are no traditional ways to know about him, that is true, but who´s to say that there is no magical way. Bloodraven is not the only one who can watch people or get information magically. If a major player finds out about him, what he is, that´s pretty much an automatic reason to have him killed for many people. 

The one reason why I think this is possible is the fact that he first went towards the wall, but then turned back to Oldtown. He was doing a lot of work to get access to a glass candle, and there are not too many important people that are impossible to find for a facelass man without one. Bloodraven is certainly one of them. 

The fact that he needs a glass candle to find his target makes me believe he´s not going after a big, political figure. It doesn´t have to be Bloodraven, though. However there seems to be a supernatural element to his his journey.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

I'd say that all depends on what information they're looking for.  If they're even looking for anything specific - maybe they're just trying to gather whatever they can and assuming it might come in useful later.  A little like Varys and Littlefinger, but on a much bigger scale.  You never know what you want to know until you *need* to know it.  The Black Cells likely weren't his first stop for info gathering - and who knows who you'll meet down there.  You can learn valuable information from the least likely of sources!  And he wouldn't want a recognizable position, or a position where he'd be missed if he just up and disappeared.  Seems to me that he'd be better off as "no one" even in KL - and something like joining the Gold Cloaks or the Night's Watch, or even joining someone's household as a servant, would bring along vows and oaths that a FM might not feel comfortable taking - especially if he knows he's going to be forsaking those oaths to return to the FM.

 

Right.   Isn't that exactly what he did after Arya freed him?   He didn't head straight for Old Town, he went to Harrenhall and began wearing a Lannister uniform.    He hung around well after he could have made an escape.   Jaquen found ways to make his predicaments fit his purposes.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

The Ned...

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, JaegrM said:

When he talks to Arya he invokes the name of the Red God, not the Many Faced God.
Is he only mentioning the red god because of the fire related deaths?

That's my understanding. Remember, to the Faceless Men, all gods are the Many-Faced God, including the Red God.

Perhaps Jaqen already killed his King's Landing target and was arrested afterward.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

10 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

That's my understanding. Remember, to the Faceless Men, all gods are the Many-Faced God, including the Red God.

Perhaps Jaqen already killed his King's Landing target and was arrested afterward.

 Not to be a dick, but wouldn't we have heard about it. FM are expensive.

[bemused]

He wasn't there to kill anyone. Fact finding mission only, focused on Ned and Starks generally (thus keeping an eye on Arya)... but after "x" amount of time, he has to move on to Oldtown, to assess what the maesters are up to - and probably the Hightower, if possible. (Hightower and Citadel are not on the same page, now ... one delving into magic, the other busy denying and obstructing it.)

[Rattenhoofd]

17 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

His capture is a big question mark in this theory, but then again it's kind of that way with any Jaquen theory. We don't know how or when he was thrown in the Black Cells, and frankly I suspect this is something Martin is just going to leave unknown.

I agree. Maybe Martin didn't even think of a reason.  I think it makes the most sense Jaquen was there for Aerys or Robert.

[Shuvuuia]

21 hours ago, dariopatke said:

 

I proposed that Jaquen was sent to take a Stark, maybe she is more than a too young apprentice, if not how she gets promoted after every mistake?

 

21 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

 

I'm also a bit suspicious of the attention the Faceless Men are giving to Arya. Or maybe the Starks in general. And how Euron could commit the FM so much to his goal. I don't think a dragon's egg is enough to pay for what Euron demands.

I could possibly see it as FM somehow finding about her warging potential - at any point before or during her training, maybe even only in the next book - and wanting to utilize it for themself, Stark part isn't important in itself, warging abilities in their blood are. But I still think it's not what happened. 

And I really don't see good reasons why anyone would want to hire a FM to kill Ned. 

[Light a wight tonight]

15 hours ago, JaegrM said:

I have to disagree, it was handled more or less professionally the whole way through, with the exception of the recruitment at the end of their business transaction.
But we hear from the kindly man how rare it is to have someone so young, especially such a young GIRL.
I propose there was no special protection for Arya, just the observed potential of a young psychologically damaged girl who could become a valuable agent

I also don't see the Kindly Man as having been expecting her, he's just intelligent and an expert at telling truth from lies.

Jaqen gives Arya the iron coin after his obligations are discharged. Passage to Bravos, and on her arrival she's shepherded to the House of Black and White. Apparently anyone with the coin and password is assumed to be connected the the Faceless Men. When she arrives at the House she's recognized by the Kindly Man and tested. Too much here to be coincidental, to my way of thinking. 

[dariopatke]

I could possibly see it as FM somehow finding about her warging potential - at any point before or during her training, maybe even only in the next book - and wanting to utilize it for themself, Stark part isn't important in itself, warging abilities in their blood are. But I still think it's not what happened. 

You are missing my point, they dont want a Stark, but that mighty blood. Why is Bran most succesfull? He had the best "training", first he wss in a coma and then he was in the darkness of crypts, these events opened his third eye. They have Stark blood or maybe someone else from fathers side, I wouldnt exclude Flints and Whent blood from mothers side which goves them massive potential and FM could use it.

I never said this was likely, but this explains why they were at black cells on way to the Wall and why they gave up on that trip when they relaised that Arya is with them and they want to escape and possibly take her.

[Shuvuuia]

12 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

You are missing my point, they dont want a Stark, but that mighty blood. Why is Bran most succesfull? He had the best "training", first he wss in a coma and then he was in the darkness of crypts, these events opened his third eye. They have Stark blood or maybe someone else from fathers side, I wouldnt exclude Flints and Whent blood from mothers side which goves them massive potential and FM could use it.

I never said this was likely, but this explains why they were at black cells on way to the Wall and why they gave up on that trip when they relaised that Arya is with them and they want to escape and possibly take her.

but before Ned's death why would they risk recruiting a high lords children or even think about it? Before all the hell broke loose Arya won't be suited for the FM training. 

[dariopatke]

but before Ned's death why would they risk recruiting a high lords children or even think about it? Before all the hell broke loose Arya won't be suited for the FM training. 

No one would suspect on them, she will, who knows what they need her for, they might be just playing with her in HoBaW.

I am not saying this is true or even makes sense, but that this is an idea and I am open to any other that makes at least a little sense because we can not find something logical in theor actions.