Why do people keep exaggerating about the sex\nudity and violence?

[Good Guy Garlan]

People keep acting as if the books weren't as guilty as the show when it comes to sexual violence. I can name at least 6 instances of rape being used for no reason other than to shock in the books. And yet people will keep blindly jumping through hoops to defend Martin to ridiculous lengths. It's terrible, simply terrible.

The fact that there's people arguing that this 

Quote

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

isn't sexual abuse makes me want to leave the fucking planet and establish a colony in Mars. 

Call me a drama queen, but I'm honestly so disturbed, horrified and disappointed by this that I'm this close to leaving this fandom without looking back. 

[Wall Flower]

Good Guy Garlan, I agreed with a lot of what you were saying about that particular relationship and I think it's great to see a man who is so passionate about this issue. I hope you will stick around as I always think it is better to argue your points than leave the field altogether (or maybe I'm just argumentative).

I think there are things the books do better than the show. I would have preferred more restraint and less 'shock value' in some places but I do think that Martin does try to make sure that readers don't forget the impact and aftermath of brutality, war and sexual abuse. For example, Jeyne Poole and Theon aren't going to bounce back from the abuse inflicted on them by Ramsey. On the other hand, I think there is a concern that show Sansa will be seen as gaining empowerment from revenge - although, to be fair, we are yet to see how the show will play out her story.

 A lot of the abuse suffered by Theon happens off screen in the books (unlike the show where it was played out excruciatingly) and more weight is given to the devastating effects on him than on the torture itself. Ned and Sam Tarly suffer PTSD - Ned is haunted by the bodies of Rhaegar's children and Sam can't get over the abuse inflicted by his father. Jaime continues to be affected by his time with Aerys and it's eventual outcome and is a voice questioning why good men stand by and let evil happen. I always found poor Lollys' rape over the top but I appreciate how we are not allowed to forget her despite the callous indifference of some characters. So far in the show there's really been almost nothing of the terrible effects of the war on the smallfolk - a feature of the book travels of Arya and Brienne. The thing I do like in the books is that no-one just gets over the things they've seen or that have been done to them by the machinery of war and power.

Anyway, this is a big topic and a controversial one, so these are just some thoughts that I'm sure others have already better expressed.

[thehandwipes]

^this.  perfectly said.

 

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

People keep acting as if the books weren't as guilty as the show when it comes to sexual violence. I can name at least 6 instances of rape being used for no reason other than to shock in the books. And yet people will keep blindly jumping through hoops to defend Martin to ridiculous lengths. It's terrible, simply terrible.

The fact that there's people arguing that this 

isn't sexual abuse makes me want to leave the fucking planet and establish a colony in Mars. 

Call me a drama queen, but I'm honestly so disturbed, horrified and disappointed by this that I'm this close to leaving this fandom without looking back. 

Are you by any chance continuing with discussion from the thread that got erased from the face of the Earth? Niiiiiiiiiice idea man...

And no one is jumping through hoops, really. It's actually very simple. We have an arranged marriage between Drogo, a powerful barbarian warlord, and Dany, a helpless teenager who's terrified by her brother. How do you get the point across that Drogo sees her as a human and even cares about her feelings? Certainly not by him giving up his "marital rights", since that would be laughably unrealistic. A way to do so, would be, let me take a wild guess, something like the wedding night segment!

From what I've read of you, I think you're a nice guy and everything, but if you're going to "leave the fandom" (whatever that actually entails) for THIS, I'd say: good riddance.

[Good Guy Garlan]

^ Honestly, this is as good a reason to leave this forum (not the fandom, I guess) as any. It was just so shocking to me to see this level of rape apologism here and it sort of freaks me out. And yes, to me that's rape apologism because there's just no way the passage I quoted above can be interpreted as being anything other than rape. Literally no way. That's sexual abuse, as clear as day. 

And this goes beyond mere Martin blind worshipping, this is even more sinister. I have the feeling that even if Martin had written, "Dany was raped by Drogo", some of y'all would still be arguing that it wasn't rape. I mean, some of the last posts I saw before the thread was closed were pretty much nearing victim-blaming territory. 

Eh, I don't know, I guess I'm not that emotionally attached to this series anymore. This discussion was sort of the final push I needed. Gonna lay off the forum for a while, maybe I bounce back when the tv show premieres, who knows. Or if Winds ever does come out. 

In any case, I'm getting ready for the Bye, Felicias and Good Riddances sure to follow. 

Also, yes, I wanted to have the last word. I'm like Amy Elliot Dunne that way. See you around, homies, and peace out. 

 

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

Oh boy. You know, you are not more of a feminist, or less of a rape apologist or whatever, than Le Cygne and Co. for "getting" the whole Dany-Drogo situation that way. The lectures are reeeally uncalled for.

By all means, take your time to... heal. Vaya con Dios.

[Wall Flower]

47 minutes ago, Myrish Swamp-Thing said:

Oh boy. You know, you are not more of a feminist, or less of a rape apologist or whatever, than Le Cygne and Co. for "getting" the whole Dany-Drogo situation that way. The lectures are reeeally uncalled for.

By all means, take your time to... heal. Vaya con Dios.

At the risk of locking this thread too, I thought Good Guy Garlan had a point about some of the posts in that other thread. I was pretty shocked by the argument that the nightly sex was only painful for Dany because of her saddle sores, when that really isn't what's written. Even romance can be very problematic in this book series, especially when you're talking about 13 year old girls.

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

At the end of the day its only fiction, not something worth getting upset about.

[Farerb]

I think there some scenes on the show that are very unnecessary like LF scene in season 1 or that scene in Blackwater. However, I have no problem when the nudity is relevant to the plot or for character development, best example is Daenerys in Fire and Blood. I don't like the unbalanced nudity between male and female. There were times when male full frontal nudity was needed, but they didn't do it like: Theon's castration, Dany orders Daario to strip, Melisandre raping Gendry, the faith militant making the high septon to walk naked in public, while those scenes had no problem showing nude women, while the men should have been the ones naked since the situation was focused on them.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, farerb said:

I think there some scenes on the show that are very unnecessary like LF scene in season 1 or that scene in Blackwater. However, I have no problem when the nudity is relevant to the plot or for character development, best example is Daenerys in Fire and Blood. I don't like the unbalanced nudity between male and female. There were times when male full frontal nudity was needed, but they didn't do it like: Theon's castration, Dany orders Daario to strip, Melisandre raping Gendry, the faith militant making the high septon to walk naked in public, while those scenes had no problem showing nude women, while the men should have been the ones naked since the situation was focused on them.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Argh quote fail!! This forum doesn't work on phones 

 

anyway what I was attempting to say was that there are inherent differences between the male and female body which makes male nudity less occupant.

The most obvious one being the penis, which you may notice protrudes outside the body quite obviously. That's not the same on women. You might see plenty of naked women on to but you will very rarely see any actual genitalia. 

Mostly all you'll see is a bit of pubic hair and the rest is left to your imagination.

Thats not going to happen so often with men, especially in situations where they are in the bedroom. Society is really not ok with seeing that.

 

The issue has very little to do with the shows attitudes, more it's the networks or societies attitudes at play.

 

plus check out all the instances of topless male characters , it happens a lot.

[Woman of War]

4 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

At the risk of locking this thread too, I thought Good Guy Garlan had a point about some of the posts in that other thread. I was pretty shocked by the argument that the nightly sex was only painful for Dany because of her saddle sores, when that really isn't what's written. Even romance can be very problematic in this book series, especially when you're talking about 13 year old girls.

 

Actually I was disgusted by that other thread where posters - many of them women  who insist on being feminist - interpreted the abuse of a frightened thirteen year old as positive and romantic first sex experience, beauty and beast like. 

[TheLeviathan73]

1 minute ago, Woman of War said:

Actually I was disgusted by that other thread where posters - many of them women  who insist on being feminist - interpreted the abuse of a frightened thirteen year old as positive and romantic first sex experience, beauty and beast like. 

There is nothing that happens in the show or books that you won't find droves of people ready to blindly defend.  Here, it's just almost exclusively the books that can do no wrong.

Rape is most certainly gratuitous in the books at times and shouldn't be defended or twisted as anything else.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Dany was in a hopeless situation and through some intimate advice, she was able to make her unavoidable sexual encounters with Drogo, tollerable. That and her delicate body actually became used to the riding sores and toughened her up. Eventually, her sexual positioning seemed to cause Drogo "care" I guess for her more. She becomes pregnant and with not any old child but a prophesized Khal that will amplify what the Dothraki do best, rape, kill, pillage and enslave. Lets face it, the Dothraki are horrible barbarians. Imagine an entire culture of Gregor Cleganes mixed with a little bit of shirless Ramsay in there too and an Iron Born callousness and viola, you have the Dothraki. I personally despise the Dothraki but I get it with Dany, she survived by what she had to do.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Martin has explained the scene. If he said it's not rape, then the rape apologist is him and no one who identifies themselves as a feminist should be here .

Diana Gabaldon has been accused of the same. I've seen many feminist sites reviewing Outlander and calling it plainly "romanticism rape". Her latest book talks about that. She says many rape survivors have actually contacted her to thank her about writing the topic in such a good positive way. But people only focus on the scene when Jamie spanks Claire and call it "violence against women!!" and not in the one after he's raped, his family tries to save him, and he later discusses this and how he survives with

Spoiler

his daughter who is also raped.

The thing is that, many people don't understand the elements of erotic literature. It always includes submission and dominance in any way, and it even gets to get violent. And yes, it makes the readers uncomfortable as it's supposed to take the reader out of their comfort zone. The fact that 50 Shades of Grey became a best seller -even if the book is crap- it's telling: women DO like to read stories in which they are sexually submitted. Women make up 80% of romance book buyers, for example, and many of them (forgot the stat, sorry, but it was around 60%) wanted sexual elements in the story .The reason they flocked to 50 Shades if because no other erotic book has been so widely distributed without making women feel ashamed of that. But now, they are also looking for better options. That's, I suppose, why Outlander has become so popular among female viewership and the show is praised.

Now, I blame Martin for not being as good writing erotica as Gabaldon (but definitely not as bad as EL James, no one is). Nevertheless, what he wrote is nothing that you can't find in any regular erotica novel. And yes, women like to read this things because it's a very common fantasy: 

62 percent of participants admitted fantasizing at least one of the eight scenarios:

Forced by a man: 52%.

Raped by a man: 32%.

Forced oral by a man: 28%.

Forced while incapacitated: 24%.

Forced by a woman: 17%.

Forced anal: 16%.

Raped by a woman: 9%.

Forced oral by a woman: 9%.

(355 women interviewed in 2015 with not definition given of what "rape" or "forced" is).

Note there is a difference between "forced" and "raped". Nevertheless, it's still a big number of women who are ok with violence during sex. If you don't believe me, you can see how common is the comment of the likes of "X is so hot, he can have me in any way".

Now, anyone reading this can go and say "this is part of a rape culture!", but the reality is that this is what women like to read. 50 Shades was a mess but at least allowed women to come out publicly and speak about what they liked to fantasy about and not being shamed for it. Are we going to shame them? Because I doubt any of those women is a rape apologist (that study was made in a Texas University, so these women are educated women at least).

According to the some, the reason women have this fantasies could be that society blame women for their sexual feelings: these kind of fantasies allow them to fantasy about it without the guilt of the responsibility. Nevertheless, after more studies, the reason why women fantasize about this is driven by different reasons, as the women who were more sexually repressed didn't have these kind of sexual fantasies: "The data provided the most support for sexual openness (I’m free to fantasize anything.) followed by sexual desirability (I’m so hot. I drive men crazy.")". So, dreaming about this is a female statement of sexual freedom: I can fantasize with whatever I want.

Many people like to talk about "women" and "what women want". Yet, when women speak about their preferences, they are shamed. For example, recently, Lego got critics because their products for girls were girly and pink. They said "you're making women like these things!" or "you're following stereotypes!". Yet, these products are like that after Lego made a extended research to find a product girls would like (and buy). And this is what girls chose. Many said "yeah, because society forced them to!". So, are you saying that women are so stupid and weak-minded to not being able to choose on their own will but society is always telling them what they want? So, why even bother asking women what they want if at the end, they are always going to answer accordingly to what is dictated for them to think? This is insulting for women.

Now, is not my intention to disturb people and I am definitely not making "rape apologies". Nevertheless, the data is there and exists. People want to protect women? Fine. But women don't want to be protected for this kind of stories. You say "but feminism...", well, romance buyers are 80%, while in USA, only 13% of women identify themselves as feminists, while, in UK, only a 7% I rather go with the women who say "I want this" than with the group saying "this is what women SHOULD want" (who are, btw, a very low number). We need to stop shaming women for what they like to do in bed or in their fantasies and blame "society!" when this contradicts the things we would like them to think or do. Women have already spoken about what they want: if we really respect them, respect this. 

(sources 1, 2, because, being a women in a STEM field, I speak with data in hand, not with my feelings in mind. We have no feelings in statistics!. Also, don't ban me, I'm good )

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Have to say JonCon, that's a great post. I 100% agree with you on what you just said. 

Im a guy, but I've watched game of thrones with a few girls, and they all respond to those scenes in similar ways. It does tie into a number of standard fantasies that are pretty common I feel.

The whole subject is very tricky and complex, and you're right that there is a guilt element at play which makes a lot of these stories more appealing as they create a world in which that guilt has disappeared. Much like Outlander removes the guilt of cheating on your husband by creating unnatural barrier to make it possible.

Either way, this might be one of the few times I agree with you

[Good Guy Garlan]

49 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

Martin has explained the scene. If he said it's not rape, then the rape apologist is him and no one who identifies themselves as a feminist should be here .

Diana Gabaldon has been accused of the same. I've seen many feminist sites reviewing Outlander and calling it plainly "romanticism rape". Her latest book talks about that. She says many rape survivors have actually contacted her to thank her about writing the topic in such a good positive way. But people only focus on the scene when Jamie spanks Claire and call it "violence against women!!" and not in the one after he's raped, his family tries to save him, and he later discusses this and how he survives with

  Reveal hidden contents

his daughter who is also raped.

The thing is that, many people don't understand the elements of erotic literature. It always includes submission and dominance in any way, and it even gets to get violent. And yes, it makes the readers uncomfortable as it's supposed to take the reader out of their comfort zone. The fact that 50 Shades of Grey became a best seller -even if the book is crap- it's telling: women DO like to read stories in which they are sexually submitted. Women make up 80% of romance book buyers, for example, and many of them (forgot the stat, sorry, but it was around 60%) wanted sexual elements in the story .The reason they flocked to 50 Shades if because no other erotic book has been so widely distributed without making women feel ashamed of that. But now, they are also looking for better options. That's, I suppose, why Outlander has become so popular among female viewership and the show is praised.

Now, I blame Martin for not being as good writing erotica as Gabaldon (but definitely not as bad as EL James, no one is). Nevertheless, what he wrote is nothing that you can't find in any regular erotica novel. And yes, women like to read this things because it's a very common fantasy: 

62 percent of participants admitted fantasizing at least one of the eight scenarios:

Forced by a man: 52%.

Raped by a man: 32%.

Forced oral by a man: 28%.

Forced while incapacitated: 24%.

Forced by a woman: 17%.

Forced anal: 16%.

Raped by a woman: 9%.

Forced oral by a woman: 9%.

(355 women interviewed in 2015 with not definition given of what "rape" or "forced" is).

Note there is a difference between "forced" and "raped". Nevertheless, it's still a big number of women who are ok with violence during sex. If you don't believe me, you can see how common is the comment of the likes of "X is so hot, he can have me in any way".

Now, anyone reading this can go and say "this is part of a rape culture!", but the reality is that this is what women like to read. 50 Shades was a mess but at least allowed women to come out publicly and speak about what they liked to fantasy about and not being shamed for it. Are we going to shame them? Because I doubt any of those women is a rape apologist (that study was made in a Texas University, so these women are educated women at least).

According to the some, the reason women have this fantasies could be that society blame women for their sexual feelings: these kind of fantasies allow them to fantasy about it without the guilt of the responsibility. Nevertheless, after more studies, the reason why women fantasize about this is driven by different reasons, as the women who were more sexually repressed didn't have these kind of sexual fantasies: "The data provided the most support for sexual openness (I’m free to fantasize anything.) followed by sexual desirability (I’m so hot. I drive men crazy.")". So, dreaming about this is a female statement of sexual freedom: I can fantasize with whatever I want.

Many people like to talk about "women" and "what women want". Yet, when women speak about their preferences, they are shamed. For example, recently, Lego got critics because their products for girls were girly and pink. They said "you're making women like these things!" or "you're following stereotypes!". Yet, these products are like that after Lego made a extended research to find a product girls would like (and buy). And this is what girls chose. Many said "yeah, because society forced them to!". So, are you saying that women are so stupid and weak-minded to not being able to choose on their own will but society is always telling them what they want? So, why even bother asking women what they want if at the end, they are always going to answer accordingly to what is dictated for them to think? This is insulting for women.

Now, is not my intention to disturb people and I am definitely not making "rape apologies". Nevertheless, the data is there and exists. People want to protect women? Fine. But women don't want to be protected for this kind of stories. You say "but feminism...", well, romance buyers are 80%, while in USA, only 13% of women identify themselves as feminists, while, in UK, only a 7% I rather go with the women who say "I want this" than with the group saying "this is what women SHOULD want" (who are, btw, a very low number). We need to stop shaming women for what they like to do in bed or in their fantasies and blame "society!" when this contradicts the things we would like them to think or do. Women have already spoken about what they want: if we really respect them, respect this. 

(sources 1, 2, because, being a women in a STEM field, I speak with data in hand, not with my feelings in mind. We have no feelings in statistics!. Also, don't ban me, I'm good )

See, I think it's important to clarify a couple of points before I really go (I'm totally like that bullied kid in hs that's always threatening to leave the school but never goes through it)

This was a good post, and a necessary point, but:

1) We've been over the fact that Martin can say what he pleases, but the books are gonna have the last word, not him. You can thank Barthes for that if you want, but that's the truth. And in the books, the passage I quoted is rape. 

2) Your point about submission is important and definitely something I've read about after I put myself through the hell of reading two Twilight books and Fifty Shades of Grey. Yes, experts agree that every sexual relationship has a sub and dom component, though obviously in some cases it's more noticeable. However, the difference between more hardcore than average S&M sex and rape is really not as blurry as people make it out to be. While consent and pain might be kind of iffy in these cases, there's one thing that sets it apart from rape: the sub has to like it, desire it, enjoy it. If the sub doesn't, it's rape. So it's a tight line, but not that tight. The difference is easy to discern. For example, Qarl and Asha and Jaime and Cersei aren't rape for the simple reason that we are in Asha's and Cersei's heads (though later, in the case of the latter) and never, not once do they look back on that sexual encounter with negative feelings about the act itself. They have no feelings of sadness, depression, outright pain or suffering. In fact, Asha initiatives another sexual encounter after the first, this time in the role of the dom. 

Arianne fantasizing that an Oberyn-like figure ravages her in the desert? Gross because of incest, but you do you. Again, she WANTS it, she DESIRES it. That's the key here.

So it's not that I'm not respecting women's desires, it's that Dany clearly DOES NOT DESIRE it, not in this passage, at least. That's as simple as it gets, really.

I don't think I have to quote yet again the passage that's at the top of the page, but show me where it says that Dany desired that rape, that she wanted Drogo to painfully take her from behind every night as she cries in pain, that she felt pleased during or afterwards, that she felt good about it.

It's easy to confuse a somewhat S&M relationship with rape if we're seeing it from the outside and not privy to the real feelings of the sub. But here we are inside Dany's head, no place for misunderstanding. She either wants, desires, needs, enjoys this or not. So show me proof that this passage is not sexual abuse. 

 

 

[FreeParking]

32 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

It's easy to confuse a somewhat S&M relationship with rape if we're seeing it from the outside and not privy to the real feelings of the sub. But here we are inside Dany's head, no place for misunderstanding. She either wants, desires, needs, enjoys this or not. So show me proof that this passage is not sexual abuse.

Just felt it was important to include this line, which immediately followed the passage that you quoted:

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

[Woman of War]

Dös Martin write  erotic fantasies, erotic fiction or does he create a believably "realistic" world? We can decide for ourselves.

In a believably realistic scenarion the abuse of a frightened girl of thirteen within a forced marriage is horror, a horror that happens a hundred times a day in many places of  the world. Girls are given to men they don't want by subjectively sometimes even well meaning relatives or by mean guardians to  strenghten power and family bonds, in exchange for ten cows or millions of company shares or for the hope that this girl might not starve. 

Erotic? Nothing of it! Abuse as an expression of patriarchal values. Even considering this as a potentially erotic situating is playing the game of a system that instrumentalises women. 

In a believably realistic scenario a gang rape isn't an erotic encounter with several men, it is horror. But I have read and back then enjoyed Fanny Hill. In a believable scenario a sex worker does a job and doesn't bewitch the rich guy turning him into a good guy. But  I have seen Pretty Woman, chewing popcorn.

All those scenarios are just as realistic as Outlander, where an interesting but normal and relatable woman gets the highly fictional excuse to fuck and love more than one husband without feeling guilty. I enormously enjoyed the series because  it's fantasy despite the careful costumes and exact historical references, good fantasy. But nothing more. And it is a bit sad that we women still need morally forgivable excuses like being forced into a rapey situation in order to lose control. It is highly ironical if we women count on a higher institution like patriarchal society structures that oppress us in reality to come into our fantasies. Let our sexuality fly high as long as we stay well within the system! Beauty and Beast is not about sexual awakening but about limiting female sexuality to socially acceptable norms like forced marriage and "being taken". Make loss of control your choice and play that now it doesn't hurt anymore!,

Imo ASIOF is a bit more than serving that view on sexuality. It has a certain political approach, it strongly refers to topics relevant to our times, topics about war and its costs, to political intrigue, family relationships, morality and conscience, the heart and not only the cunt in conflict....It is a different league from Gabaldon where you can lean back and see or read Jamie licking Claire, the story has been invented make this possible, just enjoy, girls, you can do it while feeling at least a bit challenged intellectually.

But, sorry, I demand more from ASOIAF. It is simply more relevant literature. I cannot read over sugarcoating a child's abuse as erotic first sex of a virgin with an overwhelmingly strong male who takes her and forces her to recognize her own just awakening sexual desires. I read it as it happens in Syria or Afghanistan or wherever when a young girl is given to a guy who believes himself entitled to her body. Sorry , Mr. Martin your books are too relevant literature to let you get away with this misstep.

It is as if Garcia Marquez had written the 50 men fucking the twelve year old prostitute as being erotic conquerors. As if Martin had made Sandor  raping Sansa in mutual pleasure after Blackwater or  Tyrion's and Sansa's wedding night into Virgin Learns About Sex. That would be as believable as Pretty Baby, the twelve year old prostitute having an orgasm with her first client, LOL.

Erotic fantasies, that's all. To each his or her own. But if an author sells those fantasies as reality in a context where his books are mirroring politically and  and socially relevant topics -then it gets tricky  and it may be fist in gut to all those women really concerned. A very thin line to walk.

 

note: I have no problems with Dany taking her fate and her sexuality into her own hands and getting active with Drogo later, she is characterized as resilient and resourceful  enough for that, so the show set straight where Martin stayed below his own quality. Empowerment through rape? No, self defense! Just like Sansa getting stronger after what had happened to her in s5 and what will most likely happen to her in the books in a similar way would not ruin her character.  Actually I believe this is a scenario Martin will write himself.

 

And, last addition: I really enjoyed Outlander - until that scene where despite his destroyed hand Jamie enjoyed the rape. Enjoying any sex after your hand has just been crippled would have been highly unbelievable and then rape??? My husband, joyfully watching with me until then said categorically NO WAY! Female prejudice that men always want

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ok, board being silly today, so I'm not quoting. First, GGG, don't go. I mean, go if you have to go to... eat, it's not like you're our prisoner. But come back That's it.

I think we and many agree that the sexuality in books is very hard to write, even more than action. Let it to the experts, imo. And not only because the art of it is hard to achieve, but because situations can be very easily seen as rape by those not getting the context.

In Outlander, the sex is also very ambiguous. Claire HAS to marry and consummate a marriage with Jamie otherwise, she can be indeed be beaten and raped by Randall. She IS NOT a willing participant on this marriage. BUT, through the books, Gabaldon plants the many seeds of her attraction to Jamie. No, I'm not saying "it's ok because she liked him", but that, in this specific gender, part of her growing as a character involves accepting that she actually is falling in love with Jamie and submitting herself willingly to sex with him. That's why this is ok and not what Randall wants to do. Anyone who isn't familiar with the gender can go and say "but there is a scene in which he spanks her and it's glorified!". Well, there is a lot more of it than just the event. It has context, and the context is that sex is used as a symbolism for something else.

I recently read something Eco said: (paraphrasing): "one thing is what the author said, and another one, what he meant". What Gabaldon meant here? And what Martin meant? Did any of them is glorifying rape or abuse in any way? I doubt so.

Martin's genre isn't erotica, yet, he's using sex as a symbolism because, after all, despite he's a writer writing realism, he stills creates a narrative work that needs symbolism to deliver his messages. He's less savvy than Gabaldon about this, that's why certain scenes are so hard to understand. He used sex to portray Dany's situation: sex with Drogo meant, for her, her own submission to both the Dothrakis and Viserys, her own chains as a woman and what that represented. It's when she says "I got enough of this" that she's respected as a leader, a Khaleesi, as a lover. Nevertheless, she DID felt aroused by Drogo, just as Claire felt clearly aroused by Jamie despite she still wanted to return to her husband. The uncomfortable sex she had symbolised her own position in her world: taken, submitted and weak. Yet, in their first scene, she said "yes". She wanted that sex to happen, but she didn't know how to get her own pleasure from it. She started enjoying it until she took control of the situation and she took Drogo.

Now, if we believe Martin is not good at this, D&d are much much worse. The whole "make it yours" seems to want to be this trope, but they suck at it because Sansa NEVER MAKES HIM HERS. Mostly, because Ramsay is not Drogo, nor is her story Dany's.

There is a reason why mostly characters get paralleled. Why Sansa didn't feel aroused by Tyrion or Ramsay (in show) in the same way Dany DID felt aroused by Drogo, for instance? After all, the situations are not that different. It's because of the male characters and their approach to the females. Drogo asked. Tyrion never asked. He REALISED after a while Sansa wasn't into it. ANd yes, there is  a correlation between women in risk and women feeling attracted to men that can protect them (source).

Remember that Viserys told Dany that the Dothrakis were all savages. Yet, that's not Dany's impression when she first met Drogo. Dany feeling attracted to Drogo is how she rebels to Viserys' oppression: "I will like whoever I like", which is similar to Sansa's own. This doesn't happen with Tyrion or Ramsay or Hizdhar because they felt obligated to them.