Was there any foreshadowing for Aegon living?

[RobOsevens]

Thanks Leech

[corbon]

10 hours ago, TheWhiteWalker said:

Did GRRM give any hints before ADWD about Aegon surviving the Sack of King's Landing?

Enough that some people speculated Aegon's return just from AGoT alone, way back in 1996.

[HexMachina]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are hints, both Varys/Illyrio's reluctant support of Viserys in combination with them actually wanting a Dothraki invasion as well as the House of the Undying - and there, in fact, both the vision of Aegon, Rhaegar, and Elia with Aegon identified as the promised prince and the one whose song is the song of ice and fire as well as the cloth dragon vision.

In addition there is Varys repeatedly citing Rhaenys' murder as a dreadful crime but always omitting Aegon's fate in that. That certainly can be another hint. Many people had long figured out that either Aegon or a guy claiming to be him would eventually show up by the time of ASoS (and some even back during ACoK).

While I joined the forum after ADWD was published, I did, out of morbid curiosity, look waaaaay back at the oldest threads still available to view. Some of them were old "Is Aegon alive?" Or "is xxxx really Aegon?" Threads. Some of them were quite hilarious in their guesses (think I recall one speculating Edric Dayne. Y'know, despite the 4 or so years age difference,...)

[7-KG]

7 hours ago, dariopatke said:

I would acctually like Aegon to be son of Rheagar and Jon, not just because everyone is convinced otherwise. The only really popular theory I would like to see is CLEGANEBOWL.

You would like it if Aegon was the son of Rhaegar and Jon?

[dariopatke]

You would like it if Aegon was the son of Rhaegar and Jon?

Aye, just because everyone is convinced he is fAegon, also a good twist would be that Stannis actually is AA and Lightbringer isnt warm because sacrifice wasn't made. I dont like predictable things.

Although I am huge Blackfyre supporter and I would like him to beat Dany somehow.

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

While I joined the forum after ADWD was published, I did, out of morbid curiosity, look waaaaay back at the oldest threads still available to view. Some of them were old "Is Aegon alive?" Or "is xxxx really Aegon?" Threads. Some of them were quite hilarious in their guesses (think I recall one speculating Edric Dayne. Y'know, despite the 4 or so years age difference,...)

Honestly, my first guess was that Edric might be a Targaryen/Aegon, too. The whole Aegon and Song of Ice and Fire stuff stuck in my head for obvious reasons (and I think the same happens to a lot of readers) and by the time you reach ASoS purple eyes really are almost exclusively connected to the whole Targaryen brood. 

Here on the board the truth was accessible pretty rather early since the first reports on the early Tyrion chapters go really back a long time, and it wasn't that difficult to resolve the Griff and Young Griff mystery that was already mentioned in there.

8 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

The whole Aegon/Blackfyre storyline seems like something GRRM cooked it up during the writing of the first dunk and egg novella and the writing of ACOK.  And even then, the first mention of any of it he hinted at Aegon being a paper/mummers dragon, a very clear hint that he was a phony/fake.

I don't necessarily think it is a coincidence that (f)Aegon was first hinted at during the same time that GRRM was writing about the Blackfyre Rebellions for the first time in the first DUNK AND EGG story.  It was all created and cooked up at the same time by him.  This is also the time that many feel like the story truly "took off" from being a 3 book series to a 7 book series.  If you really analyze things, you can almost see GRRM's gears turning on the creation of ASOIAF.

Laying out all the evidence and timelines, I think (f)Aegon is a Blackfyre, along with Illyrio and/or Varys.  (It always struck me weird that we don't know Varys's last name, after all).  It's all setting up a 5th Blackfyre Rebellion, this time it will be Dany Targaryen thwarting off the Blackfyres.  I also think this is one of the main reasons why Barriston Selmy is with Dany....as Selmy was directly involved with the Blackfyres in the past (he actually is the one who killed the last known Blackfyre, ending the 4th rebellion).

I don't know what impact this is all going to have in the grand scheme of things, but I do think that this is where (f)Aegon, Varys, and Illyrio's plot arc is going.

George indeed seems to have laid out the whole Blackfyre story only after he had written THK but but doesn't mean that the basics for the Aegon story wasn't already there when he wrote AGoT.

If Aegon is real there doesn't has to be a Blackfyre background anyway, and if he is not that George doesn't have to know yet whether or how he is related to Daenerys and Viserys. He can figure out/decide that when the time arrives to introduce him (or actually, he could also wait until such time as he reveals that - after all, we still have no clue how exactly Aegon is related to anyone in the books if he isn't Rhaegar's son).

George has told Ran that while he didn't exactly know who the three-eyed crow was back when writing AGoT he did not that this guy was a Targaryen relation. Bloodraven as a character clearly is an outgrowth of the Dunk and Egg stories as are the Blackfyre Rebellions, but that doesn't mean that the three-eyed crow would have had a completely different background without the Dunk & Egg stories, or that Aegon only showed up because of the Dunk & Egg stories.

It is quite likely that, if there hadn't been any Dunk & Egg stories, the three-eyed crow would just have been some Targaryen prince/bastard who ended up at the Wall for some reason without some elaborate back story as a core supporter of his half-brother during a rebellion and a very competent Hand under two subsequent Targaryen kings. And Aegon could in such a scenario just be the descendant of some pretender to the Iron Throne (a younger brother of a king or something like that) who died in exile and obscurity.

[7-KG]

8 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Aye, just because everyone is convinced he is fAegon, also a good twist would be that Stannis actually is AA and Lightbringer isnt warm because sacrifice wasn't made. I dont like predictable things.

That'd be great. Would love to see the reaction of the Stannis haters if he actually turned out to be Azor Ahai.

[dariopatke]

That'd be great. Would love to see the reaction of the Stannis haters if he actually turned out to be Azor Ahai.

Oh yes! That would be priceless!

[JLE]

Well, my theory all along is that Stannis *is* going to be the Azor Ahai equivalent - but not in the way Melisandre thinks.

Azor Ahai fulfilled TWO roles in the original legend - which Melisandre has conflated into one: that of being "the person faced with a fatal choice, one side of which was to sacrifice what he loved most", and the other of being "the hero who brought an end to the Long Night".

I think he made the wrong choice... he should have sacrificed himself, not anyone else (because that isn't sacrifice, it is murder), and let someone else be the person who brought an end to the Long Night. Nissa Nissa herself perhaps, or whatever other unnamed witness brought back the story. And - given Stannis's flame-vision in ASOS of a king who burned away to ashes - I think that the TV series put the wrong person into the fire (and did so as a result of having that scene too early: before the confrontation with the Boltons, rather than after it (for it to happen in the books, Stannis has to defeat the Boltons, or at least escape alive from them to see his daughter again.) It's not the child princess who's going into the fire: it's the king, who will *be* the sacrifice that empowers the sword, for someone else to wield, and that someone else will be Jon. Stannis, meanwhile, as the sacrificial king from his own vision, will be the second Azor Ahai - the one who made a fatal choice, but this time round picked the correct one, "Azor Ahai Gets It Right Second Time Round".

As for Aegon: I go with the Blackfyre theory, that he's a fake but a good fake. Not a true Targaryen, but also not a babe from Pisswater Bend. BUT, I think in the end it's not going to matter. The reason? He will die before meeting Dany. There's no reason, after all, for Dany to come in conflict with him: if she comes to Westeros, after all, it will not be with a husband in tow, and therefore she will be free to marry him (and, indeed, a Blackfyre / Targaryen marriage would put a final end to the ancient feud.) But... as Tyrion pointed out to Aegon in the cyvasse game... "You should have brought your dragon to the centre of the action, she was too far away to SAVE you". Aegon will die, at someone else's hand, before the question of who is or isn't the true dragon is ever brought to the test.

My money's on Aegon falling at the hand of Euron, with the aid of whatever Victarion brings back from Meereen - given that he won't be staying there long, with the city starving and ravaged by plague, Daenerys gone, many people even believe her dead, and no sign that she will ever come back... however if the dragon horn DOES control a dragon (and Victarion is going to have it blown during the battle), that dragon will be bound to serve either Victarion himself (if he has done some act that makes the horn recognise him as its master) or Euron (otherwise: there's no room for Daenerys in this equation because Victarion is in possession of the horn, Victarion is having it blown RIGHT NOW, and if he hasn't managed to change its "ownership" to himself then it is still "owned" by its previous master, namely Euron.) If the horn works at all - if it is anything other than a red herring with no relevance to actual events - then a dragon will fall under the control of the ironborn.

Victarion's ships are not going to transport Dany to Westeros unless it is as a captive - and she isn't there to be taken captive. If she wanted to bring an army, she would need ships that have *empty space* in them - Victarion's ships aren't going to take twenty thousand, or even ten thousand extra, and certainly not Dothraki horses, AND fodder for the journey (in starving Meereen, whose farmland has been burned and orchards destroyed by its previous owners before the conquest). She'll be coming without an army, on dragon-back, alone, and in pursuit of her stolen "child".

[Rob Storm]

Something I just noticed regarding "Aegon" was that he remained hidden from anyone still associated with the seven kingdoms until right after the trio of Amory Lorch, Ser Gregor and Tywin are all dead.  Obviously it would be hard to recognize any baby but everyone but Varys who was in King's Landing at the time of Rhaenys and Aegons death is dead right when Tyrion meets Aegon.   (except Pycelle but Varys sees to that as Aegon is landing in the Stormlands) .

 

May lend to the idea of fAegon seeing as there is nobody to say "no, I'm pretty sure that head I bashed against the wall had some purple eyes".  Varys was waiting until he was sure nobody could factually deny Aegon's claim.

[Winter Rose Crown]

I subscribe to the theory that quentyn is the mummers dragon (he kept going on about being able to tame a dragon because he has targaryen blood, too). Aegon is the sun's son (elia's son). 

 

It is not proper foreshadowing but what happened at Winter fell. The millers boys were killed, bodies passed for princes, and a hidden prince once thought dead will reemerge (rickon and/or bran). Their closest father figure (Robb) wed someone he shouldn't have like rhaegar did. There's also the fact Ned and aerys were both killed by betrayal. So parallels but not proper foreshadowing.

[the Scorpion Knight]

12 hours ago, Sullen said:

If it were to foreshadow something concerning the Golden Company, I think they would have used Bittersteel's personal symbol instead of the generic Targ-Blackfyre dragon. Aegon being a Blackfyre is a huge deal as well, considerably bigger than the Golden Company simply coming back.

it's a stealth pun: the shield bears a dragon

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

While I joined the forum after ADWD was published, I did, out of morbid curiosity, look waaaaay back at the oldest threads still available to view. Some of them were old "Is Aegon alive?" Or "is xxxx really Aegon?" Threads. Some of them were quite hilarious in their guesses (think I recall one speculating Edric Dayne. Y'know, despite the 4 or so years age difference,...)

the diffrence is actually around 6 years.  Aegon(who's around 18) was around 2 roughly when robert rebellion happend

36 minutes ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

 

[bent branch]

2 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

Something I just noticed regarding "Aegon" was that he remained hidden from anyone still associated with the seven kingdoms until right after the trio of Amory Lorch, Ser Gregor and Tywin are all dead.  Obviously it would be hard to recognize any baby but everyone but Varys who was in King's Landing at the time of Rhaenys and Aegons death is dead right when Tyrion meets Aegon.   (except Pycelle but Varys sees to that as Aegon is landing in the Stormlands) .

 

May lend to the idea of fAegon seeing as there is nobody to say "no, I'm pretty sure that head I bashed against the wall had some purple eyes".  Varys was waiting until he was sure nobody could factually deny Aegon's claim.

Actually, there is someone still alive who was there. Believe it or not, Thoros was there. I was looking up something entirely different about Thoros when I found the text where Thoros says he was in the throne room when the children's bodies were brought to Robert. Blew me away! This is not a rumor from someone else, but Thoros saying it himself.

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

The whole Aegon/Blackfyre storyline seems like something GRRM cooked it up during the writing of the first dunk and egg novella and the writing of ACOK.  And even then, the first mention of any of it he hinted at Aegon being a paper/mummers dragon, a very clear hint that he was a phony/fake.

I don't necessarily think it is a coincidence that (f)Aegon was first hinted at during the same time that GRRM was writing about the Blackfyre Rebellions for the first time in the first DUNK AND EGG story.  It was all created and cooked up at the same time by him.  This is also the time that many feel like the story truly "took off" from being a 3 book series to a 7 book series.  If you really analyze things, you can almost see GRRM's gears turning on the creation of ASOIAF.

Laying out all the evidence and timelines, I think (f)Aegon is a Blackfyre, along with Illyrio and/or Varys.  (It always struck me weird that we don't know Varys's last name, after all).  It's all setting up a 5th Blackfyre Rebellion, this time it will be Dany Targaryen thwarting off the Blackfyres.  I also think this is one of the main reasons why Barriston Selmy is with Dany....as Selmy was directly involved with the Blackfyres in the past (he actually is the one who killed the last known Blackfyre, ending the 4th rebellion).

I don't know what impact this is all going to have in the grand scheme of things, but I do think that this is where (f)Aegon, Varys, and Illyrio's plot arc is going.

If you have the patience to sift through all the very subtle hints here, The Blackfyre, you might find that the George had Aegon planned all along. I would point out, though, that there is no mention of the Blackfyre in The Hedge Knight. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George has told Ran that while he didn't exactly know who the three-eyed crow was back when writing AGoT he did not that this guy was a Targaryen relation. Bloodraven as a character clearly is an outgrowth of the Dunk and Egg stories as are the Blackfyre Rebellions, but that doesn't mean that the three-eyed crow would have had a completely different background without the Dunk & Egg stories, or that Aegon only showed up because of the Dunk & Egg stories.

Can you point to the source? 

[Lord Varys]

Some interview with Ran shortly after the publication of ADwD. The fact that the Blackfyres weren't yet invented in ACoK and THK is glaringly obvious. They aren't mentioned in there even once and the Targaryens are presented as the undisputed and shining rulers of Westeros, not as a dynasty which was nearly toppled thirteen years ago.

In addition, I might add, that the Blackfyre Rebellions clearly are just some seasoning/background stuff for Dunk & Egg. If they hadn't been written George wouldn't have had any reason at all to invent some enemy of the Targaryens that would trouble Egg and his family for decades.

If the past wouldn't have been explored by the the novellas then Aegon could easily have been nothing but the descendant of some random unruly younger Targaryen prince or of some bastard who tried to usurp his brother's throne without the story of an entire rival dynasty.

Not to mention that there would also have been the much easier option of Aegon being a complete fake. No Targaryen blood at all. That is still a possibility. It wouldn't be beyond Varys and Illyrio to fool both Jon Connington and Myles Toyne. Hell, they could even have faked that they are Blackfyre descendants. I'm pretty sure that they don't have birth certificates to prove that their parents were some obscure Blackfyre relations. The chance that they fuck the Golden Company leadership just as hard as the Targaryens and Jon Connington cannot be dismissed all that easily. If Varys is the guy with the Targaryen/Blackfyre ancestry he might have been forced to create a completely fake prince because he couldn't father any children himself.

[Rattenhoofd]

In my book it only counts as foreshadowing when it's actually reasonably possible for readers to deduce something from it.

Take in mind the way a lot of detective TV series do it; at the end of the episode, when the killer is revealed, they flashback to some incredibly unimportant detail earlier on, trying to tell the audience they could have figured out on their own. Which is pure horseshit, and not foreshadowing.

So despite readers talking about a possible Aegon early on in the series, I think there wasn't any foreshadowing before ADWD, and details like Aegon's face being so smashed it was unrecognizable only became foreshadowing in retrospect.

[direpupy]

18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

I hope this helps:

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VII

"Is the dragon sign still there?" asked Podrick.

 

"No," said Septon Meribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust. The innkeep never hung another sign, so men forgot the dragon and took to calling the place the River Inn. In those days, the Trident flowed beneath its back door, and half its rooms were built out over the water. Guests could throw a line out their window and catch trout, it's said. There was a ferry landing here as well, so travelers could cross to Lord Harroway's Town and Whitewalls."

 

"We left the Trident south of here, and have been riding north and west . . . not toward the river but away from it."

Completly unrelated but i could not help but notice that this has to be the ferry Dunk and Egg use to cross to Whitewalls in "The Mystery Knight" meaning this is also the Inn they where not alowed to stay at in the beginning of the story.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Some interview with Ran shortly after the publication of ADwD. The fact that the Blackfyres weren't yet invented in ACoK and THK is glaringly obvious. They aren't mentioned in there even once and the Targaryens are presented as the undisputed and shining rulers of Westeros, not as a dynasty which was nearly toppled thirteen years ago.

In addition, I might add, that the Blackfyre Rebellions clearly are just some seasoning/background stuff for Dunk & Egg. If they hadn't been written George wouldn't have had any reason at all to invent some enemy of the Targaryens that would trouble Egg and his family for decades.

If the past wouldn't have been explored by the the novellas then Aegon could easily have been nothing but the descendant of some random unruly younger Targaryen prince or of some bastard who tried to usurp his brother's throne without the story of an entire rival dynasty.

Not to mention that there would also have been the much easier option of Aegon being a complete fake. No Targaryen blood at all. That is still a possibility. It wouldn't be beyond Varys and Illyrio to fool both Jon Connington and Myles Toyne. Hell, they could even have faked that they are Blackfyre descendants. I'm pretty sure that they don't have birth certificates to prove that their parents were some obscure Blackfyre relations. The chance that they fuck the Golden Company leadership just as hard as the Targaryens and Jon Connington cannot be dismissed all that easily. If Varys is the guy with the Targaryen/Blackfyre ancestry he might have been forced to create a completely fake prince because he couldn't father any children himself.

Well, thanks for clearing that up. Game was published in 1996. No Blackfyre. The Hedge Knight before Clash. No Blackfyre. Clash as published in 1998. No Blackfyre. Storm was published in 2000. And here we have the Blackfyre. So you believe that speedwriter, George RR Martin wrote Storm and came up with the Blackfyre in less than two years? 

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Well, thanks for clearing that up. Game was published in 1996. No Blackfyre. The Hedge Knight before Clash. No Blackfyre. Clash as published in 1998. No Blackfyre. Storm was published in 2000. And here we have the Blackfyre. So you believe that speedwriter, George RR Martin wrote Storm and came up with the Blackfyre in less than two years? 

Didn't I already say what I believe?

The Aegon plot doesn't need an elaborate Blackfyre background. It could have worked with just having two paragraphs about some exiled Targaryen cadet branch. There was no need to have this thing go back to Aegon IV or to make it the background for the Dunk & Egg stories if there never had been written such stories. George never intended to write such stories in the first place. He was invited to write a short story about the past of Westeros just as all the other authors Silverberg invited for the first Legends anthology.

This means Aegon certainly could have been in the background of AGoT and ACoK but there is no need to assume the Blackfyres were there at this point, too. Just as the three-eyed crow wasn't Brynden Rivers but just some Targaryen (bastard) relation.