Marwyn the mage

[finger]

The first book is filled with foretelling.  Asshai is a remote place to flee to. Sir Jorah bids Dany to flee there when Drogo was dying. It might be that Marwin went there escaping from something, or helping someone to escape.

This is fiction, so allow me to serve you some crackpot. Just as a KG's brother fled with Viserys ans Dany, another KG's sister fled with a royal child. We've read something alike: Sam, Gilly and Mance's son. She passed as his mother, but she was not. They took sail to a faraway city, devoted to knowledge. In this instance, Marwin, Ashara and Raeghar's son, who else? I don't mean Jon, (or Daemon) but R's eldest son. Another clue: among every other character in the books, Sam comes back close to his birthplace to meet...Marwin. Perchance?

On other tone, I feel some names are premonitory, even though I couldn't tell how yet. For instance:

Ashara = Asshai

Bael = Baelish

[finger]

OuttaOldtown

Cross posted.

He couldn't pass as Aemon, he's no less that 50 years his younger, on a rough account.

When I read your quotes on Marwin, I recalled Varys. They might share something.

 

[OuttaOldtown]

3 minutes ago, finger said:

OuttaOldtown

Cross posted.

He couldn't pass as Aemon, he's no less that 50 years his younger, on a rough account.

When I read your quotes on Marwin, I recalled Varys. They might share something.

 

Read more carefully, faceless man factor..

[finger]

1 minute ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Read more carefully, faceless man factor..

So you also link Varys to the FM. I have a feeling they cut him,

Marwin can mess around the lumpen, just as Varys. I guess they could disguise as each other, if they would.

Otoh, I doubt Marwin is in touch with the FM, since our old faceless friend has arrived in Oldtown, and he doesn't seem to look for Marwin, afaik.

[Walda]

5 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna go down, but I'd say there's a good chance Dany won't be thrilled to meet Mirri Maz Duur's teacher.

True. But Dany is going to be at Vaes Dothrak getting revenge for Eroh, or learning what slavery is really like. Tyrion's going to have a booky bromance with Marwyn while she is away, and Missandi will very probably keep her misgivings to herself.

5 hours ago, Rattenhoofd said:

On a sidenote, what the hell is up with Sam needing to pay a penny to be shown to the Seneschal? This is the Citadel we're talking about, surely they would known if someone was corrupt in such a petty and banal way, and take action?

I don't know how much time you have spent with academics in academia...basically, collegiate systems, peer review, tutor/candidate tests with high stakes (for the candidate),  places where promotion depends on both original thinking and honouring hide-bound traditions, where people have studied so long and so hard on things that are of so little interest to anyone but themselves, or else, are so mired in terms of art or require such a large body of knowledge, such complex mental gymnastics to understand, that it becomes almost impossible to arrive at consensus within the discipline, and the discipline becomes unfathomable to virtually everyone outside it.

Personally, I think academics have far more self-discipline, intellectual rigour, integrity, and honour, than your average person who is just trying to make a buck. But then again, they have far greater trust placed on them than the average person just trying to make a buck.  And sometimes they succumb to the same temptations,  indulge their personal biases,  sabotage a colleague, steal work, take the money, destroy or quash someone else's important work, or pervert their own, in pursuit of some hidden political agenda. Acts and omissions, procrastinations, incompetences, lapses that the rest of us would deem too petty or banal to think twice about, can be a huge deal in academia.

In the middle ages, universities were even worse than they are today. Scientific method? No such thing. They existed primarily for the mastery of theology, and cannon law.  Intellectual Property didn't exist as a concept - plagiarism, the modern academics greatest crime, was as well accepted as independent thought, and often more so.

A certain number of students and hangers on were needed purely for the purpose of rewriting and copying scrolls. and other kinds of mechanical drudgery. Others were destined to spend their lives translating fragments from one language to another, according to strict rules they must obey, never given the recognition or authority to debate. What started off as a tip or an informal form of study-leave became in hidebound tradition a customary bribe, a sinecure, an institutionalised perk. Right up until the 19th century, matriculation into a college, forming useful acquaintance (in books and in real life) and being able to chose when you left rather than getting kicked out, were far more important to most students than  graduating. On the part of the academics, being a great teacher was not the way ahead - achieving great learning, or overthrowing the heretics (universities bred heresy, but they bred inquisitors, too. One of the points of having universities was to have a place where learned men decided what did and did not constitute heresy, in a way that at least appeared to be independent of the government, religious leaders, military, and merchants. Sometimes they actually were independent. Other times - well, I can't help thinking that the pope might have let the whole heliocentric thing slide if Galileo had not been so openly undermining Papal authority in the middle of an international Protestant uprising, and making some very effective cannons for princes whose loyalty to the pope was doubtful, and who were going back to the places where Protestantism had got beyond his control. At the time, it was important to the pope politically that Rome was regarded as the centre of the universe.)

 Oldtown and the Citidal appears to be a much more humanistic, much more innovative and free-wheeling place than Renaissance Pauda was, with less corruption and intrigue, more learning and truth seeking...yet still we see, the close proximity to the brothels, the base-born children of maesters getting special treatment (if Barbary Dustin is to be believed "Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumoured."(ADwD, Ch.37 The Prince of Winterfell)) . 

Some of the archmaesters have syllabus that have not changed for centuries, others (especially Marwyn) are cutting edge and right up to date with their subjects.  Archmaester Walgrave is senile, but still officially the seneschal and head of ravenry,(Incidentally, a friend of Cressen's, and possibly a relative of Selyse's)

  Maester Gormon can deny Pate an Iron Ring in ravenry regardless of his competence, merely because he suspects him of being a thief. The pub closest to the Citidel hasn't closed in 600 years, and while acolytes can speak freely there, they best not speak too freely of Targayen queens and treasonous things.  While privileged lordlings like Leo dine on suckling pig and truffles while pleading poverty, an older accolyte is put in the stocks for stealing food from the kitchen. I think it is perfectly reasonable that nobody takes action over Lorcas doing a go-slow on any visitor that doesn't tip him the customary penny (in fact, being willing to deal with a student enquiry within three working days, without any administration fee, sounds like a bargain to me).

While I'm not thrilled at the idea of Gilly and the babe heading off to Meereen, I'm glad they and the rare books are heading out to sea. The journey, if not the destination, will be safer than sticking around in Oldtown. My theory is that  'Pate' is there to open the doors of Oldtown to either Aurane Waters, or Euron, or the Golden Company. None is good news.

 

[Jak Scaletongue]

54 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

"In Aemon's place"? What ever could that mean? Also interesting that he says the grey sheep will be sending their man, so two Maesters are en route to Meereen.

Sam is blindly unaware this guy is taking off with all of Aemon's books, both of their possessions and Aemon's dead corpse, Gilly & the baby who has royal blood on the very same ship that brought him to Oldtown from Bravvos on his way to Dany. And don't say a word to anyone about anything, Sam may be bright but he got hoodwinked. 

My guess, Marwyn will come to Dany appearing as her great, great uncle Aemon. Whatever Arya drank to become a FM was brewed for him before he left.

No one knows Aemon is dead other than Marwyn, his inner circle in Oldtown which includes "the alchemist"/Jaqen, the crew of the cinnamon wind, Gilly & Sam, this would place Sam & Gilly in possible danger & also makes Tyrion's presence in Meereen interesting since he's been to the wall and has met Aemon. 

If he's got the same/similar knowledge about preparing the dead for the re-wearing of faces (did that sentence make sense?  I didn't get a lot of sleep...) then he might be able to pull off a FM-like wearing of Aemon's face.  I realize he's exceptionally well-read and well-taught, but even the brightest, most intelligent people have gaps in their knowledge for dozens of different reasons.  I would imagine the step(s) between Arya preparing the dead and Arya putting on a face are well-guarded secrets of the FM.  Marwyn does seem the type to root out secrets, but at some point everyone hits a wall.  I like it, and I could see it going either way (he did get the secret OR he didn't) but I don't see enough "proof" to definitively decide, for myself!

I definitely see your scenario as a possibility, myself - though I also find myself liking the idea he was the maester of Dragonstone before RR.  Which could possibly give him an "in" and maybe give her pause if/when she remembers he's the maester Mirri met.  Yes, he may have taught Mirri some stuff Dany doesn't like, but Dany's also desperate for any information about her family and *if* Marwyn was the maester, he's got stories to tell her!  I could see her eventually welcoming him, whether he's pretending to be Aemon (which I think would be more likely to get him in trouble in the long run) or *if* he's the maester who helped birth her and knew her mother, brothers, sister in law, niece and nephew. And being the former maester of Dragonstone would be a decent reason to go on a multi-year sabbatical to far off lands...gives people some time to remember you for other things....like being a crackpot!

In short - I'm gonna stay on my fence (it's not like I need to choose!  One day GRRM will tell us!)

[aryagonnakill#2]

Marwyn passing as Aemon is I think very far out there.  Nothing the FM have done has shown us the ability to change their size, Marwyn is huge.  Also, there is the fact that Marwyn isn't a FM, just because he took Aemons face does not mean the rest would match.  He would have to act old and decrepit making himself less useful in doing so.  Last he would not be able to keep the act up because he is not a FM, that's not what he does.

Gilly and the books are also not leaving with Marwyn.  The ship captain took the books to the citadel to sell, and Gilly isn't just going to hop off the Mereen. 

[OuttaOldtown]

17 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

If he's got the same/similar knowledge about preparing the dead for the re-wearing of faces (did that sentence make sense?  I didn't get a lot of sleep...) then he might be able to pull off a FM-like wearing of Aemon's face.  I realize he's exceptionally well-read and well-taught, but even the brightest, most intelligent people have gaps in their knowledge for dozens of different reasons.  I would imagine the step(s) between Arya preparing the dead and Arya putting on a face are well-guarded secrets of the FM.  Marwyn does seem the type to root out secrets, but at some point everyone hits a wall.  I like it, and I could see it going either way (he did get the secret OR he didn't) but I don't see enough "proof" to definitively decide, for myself!

I definitely see your scenario as a possibility, myself - though I also find myself liking the idea he was the maester of Dragonstone before RR.  Which could possibly give him an "in" and maybe give her pause if/when she remembers he's the maester Mirri met.  Yes, he may have taught Mirri some stuff Dany doesn't like, but Dany's also desperate for any information about her family and *if* Marwyn was the maester, he's got stories to tell her!  I could see her eventually welcoming him, whether he's pretending to be Aemon (which I think would be more likely to get him in trouble in the long run) or *if* he's the maester who helped birth her and knew her mother, brothers, sister in law, niece and nephew. And being the former maester of Dragonstone would be a decent reason to go on a multi-year sabbatical to far off lands...gives people some time to remember you for other things....like being a crackpot!

In short - I'm gonna stay on my fence (it's not like I need to choose!  One day GRRM will tell us!)

Sam was brought from Bravvos & there's a FM in his presence. It's said he spent years in the east so it's not a huge stretch to think he would be interested in the House of Black & White. They are the ultimate wildcard. I don't believe it 100% myself, only see it as in interesting possibility. 

I believe one of Dany's biggest issues is not having any family to depend on, what better disguise would there be than her own blood? The body is aboard the cinnamon wind, it doesn't seem like an accident. 

[Rattenhoofd]

46 minutes ago, Walda said:

I think it is perfectly reasonable that nobody takes action over Lorcas doing a go-slow on any visitor that doesn't tip him the customary penny.

Despite your giant wall of text about medieval universities, which can be summarized to "corruption exists and has existed in academic institutions", which is true, I still don't think it's reasonable. Visitors will definitely have complained about waiting for ages, so it's almost certain the Seneschal knows about it. He might be one of the (few, surely) Archmaesters who don't mind if people earn a little money on the side, but Lorcas' shenanigans have quite a big influence on when he gets to see visitors. Also, his gatekeeper being corrupt brings dishonor to the Seneschal himself. And that just for a few pennies? Very unlikely. Many lords would make short work of this kind of corruption (can you imagine Randyll Tarly condoning something like this?), and it stands to reason that it's the same for most Archmaesters.

[Jak Scaletongue]

33 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Sam was brought from Bravvos & there's a FM in his presence. It's said he spent years in the east so it's not a huge stretch to think he would be interested in the House of Black & White. They are the ultimate wildcard. I don't believe it 100% myself, only see it as in interesting possibility. 

I believe one of Dany's biggest issues is not having any family to depend on, what better disguise would there be than her own blood? The body is aboard the cinnamon wind, it doesn't seem like an accident. 

It's definitely an interesting possibility.

As for Aemon's body - Dany being able to be the one to cremate him could be a nice, cathartic way to say goodbye to ALL of her dead family.  Or, at least, a chance to to say goodbye to her last remaining (known) family.  And it could either 1) give her back some humanity and perspective or 2) snap the final strings of the humanity and perspective she has left.  But that would depend on too many variables for me to even wager a guess - it would all depend on *how* GRRM introduces Marwyn, and *how* Dany's doing mentally at the time...

28 minutes ago, Rattenhoofd said:

Despite your giant wall of text about medieval universities, which can be summarized to "corruption exists and has existed in academic institutions", which is true, I still don't think it's reasonable. Visitors will definitely have complained about waiting for ages, so it's almost certain the Seneschal knows about it. He might be one of the (few, surely) Archmaesters who don't mind if people earn a little money on the side, but Lorcas' shenanigans have quite a big influence on when he gets to see visitors. Also, his gatekeeper being corrupt brings dishonor to the Seneschal himself. And that just for a few pennies? Very unlikely. Many lords would make short work of this kind of corruption (can you imagine Randyll Tarly condoning something like this?), and it stands to reason that it's the same for most Archmaesters.

Truth isn't always reasonable.  And since the Seneschals appear to hate the year they spend as Seneschal, they might actually encourage their gate-keepers to make people wait.  The penny might just give the gate-keeper incentive to not waste as much time.  Visitors likely have complained - but it depends on each Seneschal whether he cares or not!  And whether it's "corruption" or just a "tip" is debatable - in our society we'd definitely see it as "corrupt" but in a medieval society it may very well be seen as a "tip" (especially if the current Seneschal hates his job and wants to avoid visitors).  And I'm betting Lords aren't ever required to wait - and as long as *they* don't have to wait, most wouldn't give two shits about everyone else!  Do you think Tywin, or Mace, would care about Joe Blow having to wait?  They'd through a fit if *they* had to wait (or "tip"), but I can't see them caring if Sam has to wait (or "tip"). (Maybe Sam...he IS a Lord's son, even if he's effectively disowned - but Mace would have to *learn* about it to care. Don't think Randyll would care - he doesn't seem to care much about Sam, period, though he's likely gonna be pissed to hear Sam's gonna be a maester).

[OuttaOldtown]

10 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

It's definitely an interesting possibility.

As for Aemon's body - Dany being able to be the one to cremate him could be a nice, cathartic way to say goodbye to ALL of her dead family.  Or, at least, a chance to to say goodbye to her last remaining (known) family.  And it could either 1) give her back some humanity and perspective or 2) snap the final strings of the humanity and perspective she has left.  But that would depend on too many variables for me to even wager a guess - it would all depend on *how* GRRM introduces Marwyn, and *how* Dany's doing mentally at the time...

 

That's an interesting idea, can't dismiss it..

[Rattenhoofd]

2 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Truth isn't always reasonable.  And since the Seneschals appear to hate the year they spend as Seneschal, they might actually encourage their gate-keepers to make people wait.  The penny might just give the gate-keeper incentive to not waste as much time.  Visitors likely have complained - but it depends on each Seneschal whether he cares or not!  And whether it's "corruption" or just a "tip" is debatable - in our society we'd definitely see it as "corrupt" but in a medieval society it may very well be seen as a "tip" (especially if the current Seneschal hates his job and wants to avoid visitors).  And I'm betting Lords aren't ever required to wait - and as long as *they* don't have to wait, most wouldn't give two shits about everyone else!  Do you think Tywin, or Mace, would care about Joe Blow having to wait?  They'd through a fit if *they* had to wait (or "tip"), but I can't see them caring if Sam has to wait (or "tip"). (Maybe Sam...he IS a Lord's son, even if he's effectively disowned - but Mace would have to *learn* about it to care. Don't think Randyll would care - he doesn't seem to care much about Sam, period, though he's likely gonna be pissed to hear Sam's gonna be a maester).

I meant if the lords themselves employed gatekeepers who charged money and put it in their own pocket. Lords like Tywin and Randyll would instantly hang any of their men that behaved like Lorcas. The main issue I think most lords and archmaesters would take here is not the poor smallfolk having to wait, but the stain upon their own honor. If your men take unauthorized "tips", whether it's fully seen as corrupt or not, that either means a lack of discipline or a lack of integrity, which reflects on your own discipline or integrity. Archmaesters would especially be careful for stains upon their integrity, even if they take an office they don't want.

[Jak Scaletongue]

2 minutes ago, Rattenhoofd said:

I meant if the lords themselves employed gatekeepers who charged money and put it in their own pocket. Lords like Tywin and Randyll would instantly hang any of their men that behaved like Lorcas. The main issue I think most lords and archmaesters would take here is not the poor smallfolk having to wait, but the stain upon their own honor. If your men take unauthorized "tips", whether it's fully seen as corrupt or not, that either means a lack of discipline or a lack of integrity, which reflects on your own discipline or integrity. Archmaesters would especially be careful for stains upon their integrity, even if they take an office they don't want.

Not if they were the ones telling Lorcas to make sure folks cooled their heels. 

We don't know they're "unauthorized" - if the current Seneschal approves of the practice, then it's de facto authorized.  Hell, some of the current Archmaester's may have once been gate-keepers themselves when they were younger and at this point in the Citadel's lifespan it's a tradition no one wants to or has bothered to do away with.

And the bastard's they're fathering aren't a "stain on their honour"?  Each Seneschal would have his own definition of what's "honourable" or not.  And since the Seneschal change annually, it's not like anyone has the power to put their foot down.

[Rob Storm]

1 hour ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Sam was brought from Bravvos & there's a FM in his presence. It's said he spent years in the east so it's not a huge stretch to think he would be interested in the House of Black & White. They are the ultimate wildcard. I don't believe it 100% myself, only see it as in interesting possibility. 

I believe one of Dany's biggest issues is not having any family to depend on, what better disguise would there be than her own blood? The body is aboard the cinnamon wind, it doesn't seem like an accident. 

I like this theory.  I hate the concept of Aemon's corpse being shipped around the globe for magical purposes but I digress.

 

Possible some other faceless man assumes the role of Aemon while Marwyn and he work together?  Marwyn did kind of leave the room before grabbing any of that brewing faceless man juice but he could always have a cask tucked away.

[Jak Scaletongue]

8 minutes ago, Rob Storm said:

I like this theory.  I hate the concept of Aemon's corpse being shipped around the globe for magical purposes but I digress.

 

Possible some other faceless man assumes the role of Aemon while Marwyn and he work together?  Marwyn did kind of leave the room before grabbing any of that brewing faceless man juice but he could always have a cask tucked away.

It sounds like he just grabbed his cloak and left.  No bag packed, left the glass candle there, etc.  So either his cloak has a ton of hidden pockets (like those con men you see in cartoons!) or he's got nothing but his cloak!

[The Mountain That Flies]

I'm very torn on Marwyn. On the one hand he seems like an awesome rouge character, a kind tough and grizzled semi-wizard who could be exactly what some of the protagonists need in their corner. On the other hand, telling people they can't trust anyone but you, hoarding super powerful technology to yourself, and absconding with a corpse are all pretty shady things to do.

Furthermore, if Marwyn doesn't know who Pate really is, we have to question how clever this archmaester really is or how effectively he's been using that glass candle. If he DOES know, then we need to ask why a guy who claims he's on the side of right is working with a death cult assassin. Remember, up until recently Pate was the resident idiot of the students. Did Marwyn think he just jumped in intelligence somehow, or does he consider a Faceless Man to be a useful tool?

[Nozlym]

whose to say he even reaches dany

[Jak Scaletongue]

12 minutes ago, Nozlym said:

whose to say he even reaches dany

Speculating that he ends up at the bottom of the Summer Sea isn't all that fun....unless of course he comes back as a "dead thing in the water"

[OuttaOldtown]

21 minutes ago, Rob Storm said:

I like this theory.  I hate the concept of Aemon's corpse being shipped around the globe for magical purposes but I digress.

 

Possible some other faceless man assumes the role of Aemon while Marwyn and he work together?  Marwyn did kind of leave the room before grabbing any of that brewing faceless man juice but he could always have a cask tucked away.

There was a time lapse while Sam slept, Alleras states that they knew he was coming. He seems pretty fast to decide he will travel to Meereen aboard the cinnamon wind, I think it's possible arrangements were set before he met Sam..

 

[Rob Storm]

3 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

There was a time lapse while Sam slept, Alleras states that they knew he was coming. He seems pretty fast to decide he will travel to Meereen aboard the cinnamon wind, I think it's possible arrangements were set before he met Sam..

 

I agree, if he was always planning on a FM plan then he wouldn't forget the potion.  My main questions I guess was more about the idea of someone besides Marwyn becoming the "mummers Aemon".