Are the Weirwoods a Colony of Clonal Trees?

[FireflySaint]

If this idea has been brought up before, I do not know, I tried to find a topic on it but I couldn't, so I made my own. My little theory is that all the weirwood trees in the continent of Westeros are all one tree. This would mean, in terms of the old gods religion, that there is really only one "god" (if each weirwood is considered single a god/deity, that is, which I'm not sure has been stated as a belief). The CoTF were said to be able to see through the eyes of all the carved weirwood trees, so if we assume that there is only one weirwood tree, it would make sense for them to be able to see all across Westeros through this "system". It's even scientifically plausible for such an organism to exist as one of the most well-known clonal tree, Pando (my inspiration for this theory), is estimated to be about 80,000 years old. It may be sort of far-fetched, but I think it would be cool. What do you guys think? 

[TheSovereignGrave]

It seems like an interesting theory, though aren't clonal colonies like that usually created from shoots of the trees? And not growing from seeds, which I assume weirwoods do. Or at least the ones people have planted do.

[moonshield]

Thats also my theory (one of many), that the Great Other might be a gigantic organism consisting of a world-encompassing network of roots and trees. So basically my train of thought on this topic is that the Great Other isnt just great regarding his powers as a god (or whatever reason there is to call him the Great Other), but also Great in terms of his physical dimension. I think the idea has at least some merit.

13 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

It seems like an interesting theory, though aren't clonal colonies like that usually created from shoots of the trees? And not growing from seeds, which I assume weirwoods do. Or at least the ones people have planted do.

In a thread it was theorized that each tree act as a node for the network, so basically they kind of link in the network when their roots are reaching deep enough.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

Weir has 2 definitions, 1a gate that controls the flow of water,2. a fish trap made of branches, generally, set in a watercourse. 

The Weir could be a single consciousness, (Children of the Weir?), controlling the flow of "Souls" keeping those connected to any Weir,  Forever.  

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

You should check out the Rat Cook theory in my signature. It's about a tie with weirs.

[FuzzyJAM]

Aren't we explicitly told that weirwoods are (sometimes) planted in new locations?  I'm not great on biology, but isn't that by definition not clonal?  There are weirwoods on islands and (I think?) across seas.  I really doubt they're all physically connected thousands of feet down across vast expanses of water.  

At any rate, we know that the weirwoods take on some sort of other organisms in joining with Children and human greenseers.  

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Once&FutureBrian said:

Weir has 2 definitions, 1a gate that controls the flow of water,2. a fish trap made of branches, generally, set in a watercourse. 

The Weir could be a single consciousness, (Children of the Weir?), controlling the flow of "Souls" keeping those connected to any Weir,  Forever.  

While your explanation of the word 'weir' is correct (dam or fish trap), I think weirwood has probably its root in the Old English word 'wyrd', that is linked to the PIE root *wert-, and means "to come to pass" and in case of the Old Norse variation Urd and the Old English is used to mean "fate" and the godesses deciding the fate of men - their past, present and future. In time, the spelling altered to 'weird' around the 15th century, and then still only reserved to indicate 3 Fates characters. It's not until the 19th century that the word 'weird' gets the associative meaning of 'strange', but even then it is still reserved for use in relation to the supernatural. Only by the start of the 20th century does the word 'weird' get a more mundane everyday use. So, it's probably a 'weirdwood' but the 'd' fell away for pronunciation reasons and thus George made it 'weirwood' - a fate tree, through which the past, present and future can be seen and told.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

On 2/14/2016 at 2:43 PM, sweetsunray said:

While your explanation of the word 'weir' is correct (dam or fish trap), I think weirwood has probably its root in the Old English word 'wyrd', that is linked to the PIE root *wert-,      

 

Oxford Dictionaries Definition of weir English : noun

1A low dam built across a river to raise the level of water upstream or regulate its flow.

1.1An enclosure of stakes set in a stream as a trap for fish.

Origin: Old English wer, from werian 'dam up'.  

Weirs slow the flow, creating a pool, and allowing a continuous flow through.   A Water Gate, no pun.               

 Weirwood Possibilities, IMO, (All scenarios involve Weir using, needing Blood.

1. A Gateway between life and death.  Cotf "Wed the Tree" to see through the eyes of their gods, corrupting magic with Blood, and Creating Weirnet=Collective Consciousness/Memories (Pool of Souls).           

2.  (Alien?) Mold like Species with a single intelligence, influencing thoughts and dreams. Cotf=Children of the Weir, they are another manifestation of the WeirMind, (only Leaf speaks?) 

[sweetsunray]

And in response to that I point to the world of Ice and Fire book where we get the description of Highgarden's godswood: three weirwoods with their branches intertangled and called the Three Sisters.

In Shakespeare's play of Macbeth the Three Witches or Weird Sisters foretell Macbeth's fate - that he'll be king, and his death. Meanwhile most editions have a footnote mentioning that 'weird' means 'fate' and in Old English was spelled 'wyrd'.

Highgarden's Three Sisters also are next to a pool (like in WF). In Norse mythology one of the roots of Yggdrasil ends in Asgard (the garden of the High Ones, aka gods) at the Urdrbrunnr... And Urdr is the Old Norse for the Old Engish wyrd. At the Urdrbrunnr live three norns (fates) - past, present, future. The three norns throw water and clay over Ygdrassil each day from the well, creating a white-wash, making the bark look white.

Do you want to know yet more?

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

 The problem with that is they are WEIR-Wood, not Weird.  Weir- Gateway/Trap made of Branches.                    Both of these definitions fit what a Weirwood represents perfectly together.  

 GRRM was influenced by Old Norse mythology, as he was influenced by every story he's ever heard or read as we all are.  History, Sci-Fi, Fantasy, The Grateful Dead, Stan Lee, and many others influenced him to write the way be does.  GRRM will take pieces from many different areas and weave them into his story. 

People want to think it's copy and paste from Old Norse, it's not, nor is it Lovecraft, Tolkien, Heinlen, Dickens, Faulkner, or Vance or any other writer. I decipher the meaning behind the tale based on my own perspective, as we all do, but It's not that simple as he has used bits of all his inspirations, but in his own way.

GRRM was influenced more by Marvel Comics than by Tolkien.   

Maybe Ragnorak wasnt as big an influence as Marvel Comics Thor!!

[Jak Scaletongue]

48 minutes ago, Jon Crow (King Snow) said:

 The problem with that is they are WEIR-Wood, not Weird.

I'm merely pointing something out from a language-level, rather than disagreeing outright.  You *may* be right, it may be meant to be just "weir" - but from a high-level look at the English language, dropping a consonant when said consonant gets in the way of the flow of the words is very common.  Try saying "weirdwood" ten times.  It very quickly turns into "weirwood" even if you're trying your hardest to enunciate.  Did you know that the word "apron" used to be "napron"?  But "a napron" very quickly became "an apron" because it flows better. *A lot of these changes didn't happen until the Great Vowel Shift in the...13th century...after Chaucer, at any rate.* (between 1350-1600 - Shakespeare was writing near the end of the Shift, Chaucer at the very beginning; both English but you wouldn't know that to read them!  The Vowel Shift is the cause of many of our "unique" spellings in English...it's a very fascinating subject)

Now, having said that - it IS entirely possible that both "weird" and "weir" conveyed the multiple meanings these trees have in this story.  The weirwood trees, their colouring, their function all carry multiple meanings in story for different people and it is entirely possible that the name GRRM gave them are meant to convey more than one of these meanings.  Essentially, a play on words  - both "weird" and "weir" conveyed different aspects of the trees that GRRM wanted to represent.  Now, I don't know much about GRRM's influences, but I *do* know he's a smart man - he's got to be, to write books like these!  It wouldn't be the first time he's hidden multiple meanings in a single word, phrase or scene.  It's certainly not worth getting upset about - both are valid speculations. 

 

TL;DR - never trust spelling in English LOL!

[Monkey Man]

On the origin and meaning of 'weirwood' ...

Although the spelling is slightly different, I think it's pretty likely that the 'weir' in weirwood is like the 'were' in werewolf. It comes from the Middle English word 'wer', which means 'man'.

Werewolf translates as man-wolf. 

Equally, weirwood is probably meant to mean something like man-tree.

Unlike 'weir' as a water gate or dam, this interpretation actually makes some thematic sense and is supported by the text:

The trees are a storage system for all human thought, they're woven into a man who controls them (Bloodraven), and they literally have human faces carved into them. They basically are man-trees.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I don't think they are clonal, because they apparently have been planted in seed form in various places.  They are all connected psionically, but that is either a natural ability or the ability of a symbiont - in "The Men of Greywater Watch" by the same author, there is a tree very similar to a weirwood with psionic abilities, but the power is actually in a fungus that grows on the tree.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Jon Crow (King Snow) said:

 The problem with that is they are WEIR-Wood, not Weird.  Weir- Gateway/Trap made of Branches.                    Both of these definitions fit what a Weirwood represents perfectly together.  

 GRRM was influenced by Old Norse mythology, as he was influenced by every story he's ever heard or read as we all are.  History, Sci-Fi, Fantasy, The Grateful Dead, Stan Lee, and many others influenced him to write the way be does.  GRRM will take pieces from many different areas and weave them into his story. 

People want to think it's copy and paste from Old Norse, it's not, nor is it Lovecraft, Tolkien, Heinlen, Dickens, Faulkner, or Vance or any other writer. I decipher the meaning behind the tale based on my own perspective, as we all do, but It's not that simple as he has used bits of all his inspirations, but in his own way.

GRRM was influenced more by Marvel Comics than by Tolkien.   

Maybe Ragnorak wasnt as big an influence as Marvel Comics Thor!!

I do not claim that it's only Old Norse mythology. Yes, it's Old Norse, and Lovecraft, Tolkien, Tad Williams, Zelazny, Dante, Greek, Cousteau, Andersen, etc... It's not because there's a whole bunch of influences in there that it becomes meaningless. The influences are still in there and used meticulously, even using verses and phrases aside from imagery. Waving it away as just some meaningless fancy stuff is not the best argument imo, especially when you make your own symbolical meaning argument.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

On 2/17/2016 at 4:01 PM, Jak Scaletongue said:

I'm merely pointing something out from a language-level, rather than disagreeing outright.  You *may* be right, it may be meant to be just "weir" - but from a high-level look at the English language, dropping a consonant when said consonant gets in the way of the flow of the words is very common.  Try saying "weirdwood" ten times.  It very quickly turns into "weirwood" even if you're trying your hardest to enunciate.  Did you know that the word "apron" used to be "napron"?  But "a napron" very quickly became "an apron" because it flows better. *A lot of these changes didn't happen until the Great Vowel Shift in the...13th century...after Chaucer, at any rate.* (between 1350-1600 - Shakespeare was writing near the end of the Shift, Chaucer at the very beginning; both English but you wouldn't know that to read them!  The Vowel Shift is the cause of many of our "unique" spellings in English...it's a very fascinating subject)

Now, having said that - it IS entirely possible that both "weird" and "weir" conveyed the multiple meanings these trees have in this story.  The weirwood trees, their colouring, their function all carry multiple meanings in story for different people and it is entirely possible that the name GRRM gave them are meant to convey more than one of these meanings.  Essentially, a play on words  - both "weird" and "weir" conveyed different aspects of the trees that GRRM wanted to represent.  Now, I don't know much about GRRM's influences, but I *do* know he's a smart man - he's got to be, to write books like these!  It wouldn't be the first time he's hidden multiple meanings in a single word, phrase or scene.  It's certainly not worth getting upset about - both are valid speculations. 

 

TL;DR - never trust spelling in English LOL!

Weir could easily have been weird, no doubt. I was just saying that "weir" itself didn't have to evolve from another earlier word. 

He writes everything to be wide open to interpretation, so I try to not get stuck on any, always ready to look at a new angle.  Because the only person that Knows what it All means is George

 

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

On 2/17/2016 at 5:52 PM, sweetsunray said:

I do not claim that it's only Old Norse mythology. Yes, it's Old Norse, and Lovecraft, Tolkien, Tad Williams, Zelazny, Dante, Greek, Cousteau, Andersen, etc... It's not because there's a whole bunch of influences in there that it becomes meaningless. The influences are still in there and used meticulously, even using verses and phrases aside from imagery. Waving it away as just some meaningless fancy stuff is not the best argument imo, especially when you make your own symbolical meaning argument.

Wasn't meaning any offense, but sometimes people want to fit Ice & Fire in a certain idealogy, mythology, or whatever.  It  is impossible to do so, Ice & Fire being a blend of so many different influences, and unlike any other story!

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

On 2/17/2016 at 4:16 PM, Monkey Man said:

On the origin and meaning of 'weirwood' ...

Although the spelling is slightly different, I think it's pretty likely that the 'weir' in weirwood is like the 'were' in werewolf. It comes from the Middle English word 'wer', which means 'man'.

Werewolf translates as man-wolf. 

Equally, weirwood is probably meant to mean something like man-tree.

Unlike 'weir' as a water gate or dam, this interpretation actually makes some thematic sense and is supported by the text:

The trees are a storage system for all human thought, they're woven into a man who controls them (Bloodraven), and they literally have human faces carved into them. They basically are man-trees.

On the bolded, a Weir controls the flow of water, while simultaneously creating a pool, (Theme: Weir is what"souls" flow thru to the afterlife, while a pool of consciousness is collected).  

2nd Weir definition is a type of Trap, usually made of Woven Branches.(lke a Throne made of woven branches, upon which Bran is currently sitting on)

So, a Weir allows a steady flow through to the afterlife (V6), while Trapping those that had "Wed" the Tree, creating a Pool of all Consciousness, bound to the Weir.        

  IMO this makes a lot of sense, but I try to keep my mind open, because we Know Nothing, and can only theorize.

[Macgregor of the North]

Nothing to add at this time but this thread is fascinating AF.

Good reading.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Jon Crow (King Snow) said:

Wasn't meaning any offense, but sometimes people want to fit Ice & Fire in a certain idealogy, mythology, or whatever.  It  is impossible to do so, Ice & Fire being a blend of so many different influences, and unlike any other story!

He fits it himself in many different influences, in multiple layers. There is a lot of Greek underworld stuff in the choice of pools and underground rivers, blended with the world tree Yggdrasil of Northern mythology, and then Norse Hel with Dante's Christian inferno and purgatory. He uses whichever he chooses from it, like patchwork.

I agree that it's folly to think he is doing a retelling of one mythology 1:1. He's doing an n dimensional matrix instead. But he also works in the references to it.

And I agree with Jaq that "weirdwood" just doesn't flow. He might have found the eaning of "weir" aside from it, and thought - that works too.

[LongRider]

On 2/17/2016 at 2:30 PM, Byrnard Sandors said:

I don't think they are clonal, because they apparently have been planted in seed form in various places.  They are all connected psionically, but that is either a natural ability or the ability of a symbiont - in "The Men of Greywater Watch" by the same author, there is a tree very similar to a weirwood with psionic abilities, but the power is actually in a fungus that grows on the tree.

The aspen tree of North America is clonal and yet separate trees are planted as part of ornamental horticultural in yards and such, so I found this   "Aspen reproduces both by seeds and by root sprouts, though sprouting is the most common and successful form of reproduction. "  

So in theory, a weirwood tree could be clonal, but are they?   

 

edt; if the weirwood trees are one large organism in the story, my view would be that is because GRRM would have a reason for that, and not because of what weir or weird might or might not mean what the many myths might be.  just my opinion tho.