Any point in reading Unfinished Tales of Tolkien after History of Middle Earth?

[TheWhiteWalker]

I already own all 12 books of History of Middle Earth. So, is there any point in me buying Unfinished Tales now, or are all of its contents already contained by History of Middle Earth?

[The Marquis de Leech]

With the exception of the First Age stuff, Unfinished Tales doesn't duplicate other texts. So go ahead and get it - the Second Age material (Aldarion and Erendis in partcular) is fascinating.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'd also strongly recommend reading Unfinished Tales before you start on the History of Middle-earth.

[TheWhiteWalker]

1 hour ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

I'd also strongly recommend reading Unfinished Tales before you start on the History of Middle-earth.

Ok, thanks!!!

PS: Love the signature

[The Marquis de Leech]

A run down of what to expect from the twelve volumes:

1-2: Tolkien's earliest attempt at a Mythology for England - essentially the idea is that an Anglo-Saxon mariner washes up on a strange island and hears a bunch of stories - the stories that would eventually become The Silmarillion. Incredibly archaic language, and some very odd stuff in there (check out the original story of Beren and Lúthien), which means it isn't light reading. That said, the second volume contains the only complete account of the Fall of Gondolin Tolkien ever wrote, so you don't want to skip it altogether.

3. A couple of lengthy poems from the 1920s, being accounts of Beren and Lúthien (in heroic rhyming couplets) and Túrin (in Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse).

4. The geography of Arda - features some neat First Age maps. Also features the developing Silmarillion - including the Annals of Valinor and Beleriand, an attempt to replicate the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (there are entries in actual Anglo-Saxon).

5. Tolkien's earliest Númenor story - actually an unfinished one about time-travel. More developing Silmarillion - we now see the stories as they were when Tolkien started work on The Lord of the Rings. Also has a whole boatload of Elven linguistic stuff.

6-8. The drafts for The Lord of the Rings.  

9. Finishes the Rings drafts, including the unpublished epilogue to the book (yes, The Lord of the Rings had an epilogue taken out by the publisher). More Númenor stuff - the Downfall as we know it takes shape.

10. The big one. If you only read a single volume of this series, read this one. Morgoth's Ring contains Tolkien's post-1950s attempts at making The Silmarillion fit with The Lord of the Rings - and more importantly, contains the essays he wrote about his world. 

11. A continuation of 10, focussed on the Beleriand-setting stories.

12. The other big one. The drafts for the Rings appendices, The New Shadow (the unfinished sequel to Rings, abandoned after one chapter), and some assorted other bits and pieces. Some priceless Middle-earth gems in there. 

So yeah, read 10-12, and the Fall of Gondolin from volume 2. The rest isn't so important. 

[SeanF]

A run down of what to expect from the twelve volumes:

1-2: Tolkien's earliest attempt at a Mythology for England - essentially the idea is that an Anglo-Saxon mariner washes up on a strange island and hears a bunch of stories - the stories that would eventually become The Silmarillion. Incredibly archaic language, and some very odd stuff in there (check out the original story of Beren and Lúthien), which means it isn't light reading. That said, the second volume contains the only complete account of the Fall of Gondolin Tolkien ever wrote, so you don't want to skip it altogether.

3. A couple of lengthy poems from the 1920s, being accounts of Beren and Lúthien (in heroic rhyming couplets) and Túrin (in Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse).

4. The geography of Arda - features some neat First Age maps. Also features the developing Silmarillion - including the Annals of Valinor and Beleriand, an attempt to replicate the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (there are entries in actual Anglo-Saxon).

5. Tolkien's earliest Númenor story - actually an unfinished one about time-travel. More developing Silmarillion - we now see the stories as they were when Tolkien started work on The Lord of the Rings. Also has a whole boatload of Elven linguistic stuff.

6-8. The drafts for The Lord of the Rings.

9. Finishes the Rings drafts, including the unpublished epilogue to the book (yes, The Lord of the Rings had an epilogue taken out by the publisher). More Númenor stuff - the Downfall as we know it takes shape.

10. The big one. If you only read a single volume of this series, read this one. Morgoth's Ring contains Tolkien's post-1950s attempts at making The Silmarillion fit with The Lord of the Rings - and more importantly, contains the essays he wrote about his world.

11. A continuation of 10, focussed on the Beleriand-setting stories.

12. The other big one. The drafts for the Rings appendices, The New Shadow (the unfinished sequel to Rings, abandoned after one chapter), and some assorted other bits and pieces. Some priceless Middle-earth gems in there.

So yeah, read 10-12, and the Fall of Gondolin from volume 2. The rest isn't so important.

Thanks. I've always been put off by these vast tomes, so it's good to know where to start (my Tolkien reading is limited to the Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion, UT, Letters, and various bits and pieces and blogs).

I have read the Epilogue, and think Tolkien's publisher was right to exclude it.

[Clueless Northman]

I fully agree that reading Unfinished Tales is the logical thing to do after reading Silmarillion. HOME should only be attempted last, when you've read Hobbit, LOTR, SIlm and UT.

 

And there are still some very powerful moments in the Lays of Beleriand - HOME III -, both in the Beren-Luthien one and the Children of Hurin one:

Death to light, to law, to love;
cursed be moon and stars above;
may darkness everlasting old
that waits outside in surges cold
drown Manwë, Varda and the sun;
may all in hatred be begun
and all in evil ended be
in the moaning of the endless Sea!

[Richard Writhen]

Kicking myself every day for letting that series go. But yeah, as I remember it, The Silmarillion and UT are very good.

[Jo498]

Is the earliest Beren/Luthien version the one with cats vs dogs? I think I read this as a German translation years ago (Book of Lost Tales/Buch der verlorenen Geschichten). Or is the HoM version still different?

I never read any of the explicit HoM Vols, I think. But both the Lays of Beleriand and Unfinished Tales with longer prose versions? of some Silmarilion (and also some Numenor & 2nd age stuff) were available separately and not all that philologically cluttered. I highly recommend them unless one loathes epic poems (and those who don't like such should be banished to the Outer Darkness anyway...).

[The Marquis de Leech]

20 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Is the earliest Beren/Luthien version the one with cats vs dogs? I think I read this as a German translation years ago (Book of Lost Tales/Buch der verlorenen Geschichten). Or is the HoM version still different?

Yes, the original  Beren and Lúthien is set up as a fable about why dogs and cats don't get along.

Some other weird stuff:

The character of Sauron starts out as Tevildo, Prince of Cats.

Beren was (early on) an Elf.

The original Fall of Gondolin features Morgoth's mechanical dragons (remind you of anything?)

Morgoth is originally defeated by chasing him up a pine tree, and then cutting it down.

 

[Jo498]

Yeah, I remember; I read the "prince of cats" story and some of the other stuff in translation.

It's really a pity that Tolkien never got around to do an "updated" longer version (say like the Children of Hurin prose narrative) of the Fall of Gondolin.

I am still somewhat confused. It seems that before the HoM volumes appeared two vols. "Lost tales", as well as "Unfinished Tales" and "The lays of Beleriand" were published. As I said, I read one or both of the Lost Tales vols. in translation and I have pbck editions of the Lays and UT. Are the first three HoM Vols. straight reprints of the "Lost Tales" and the "Lays" or are they only roughly corresponding and contain more material?

And where do the Unfinished Tales fit in? You said the 2nd +3rd age stuff is only in UT, but are there different/more extensive versions of Tuor & Gondolin and the Narn i hin Hurin in HoM?

[matt b]

1 hour ago, Jo498 said:

I am still somewhat confused. It seems that before the HoM volumes appeared two vols. "Lost tales", as well as "Unfinished Tales" and "The lays of Beleriand" were published. As I said, I read one or both of the Lost Tales vols. in translation and I have pbck editions of the Lays and UT. Are the first three HoM Vols. straight reprints of the "Lost Tales" and the "Lays" or are they only roughly corresponding and contain more material?

Same books. The Book of Lost Tales, Vols. 1 & 2, and the Lays of Beleriand are merely the first 3 volumes of the HoME. If I had to guess, I would say that the Lost Tales was kind of a test to see if the concept would work. If nobody bought it that's all there would be. Once it became clear it was selling, I'm betting the publishers greenlit the full HoME series and sort of "retconned" the Lost Tales into the first 2 volumes of the series. To my knowledge The Lays of Berleriand was always published as the third volume of the HoME. AFAIK, nothing has changed in any of those books since they were originally published.

[The Marquis de Leech]

8 hours ago, Jo498 said:

And where do the Unfinished Tales fit in? You said the 2nd +3rd age stuff is only in UT, but are there different/more extensive versions of Tuor & Gondolin and the Narn i hin Hurin in HoM?

My mistake - Tuor and the Narn* aren't duplicated. What I was thinking of was The Wanderings of Húrin - which appears in volume 11, and is a continuation of the story after the death of Túrin.

*Except insofar as The Children of Húrin - the full-length book - counts. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

7 hours ago, matt b said:

Same books. The Book of Lost Tales, Vols. 1 & 2, and the Lays of Beleriand are merely the first 3 volumes of the HoME. If I had to guess, I would say that the Lost Tales was kind of a test to see if the concept would work. If nobody bought it that's all there would be. Once it became clear it was selling, I'm betting the publishers greenlit the full HoME series and sort of "retconned" the Lost Tales into the first 2 volumes of the series.

I think the only real selling point of The Book of Lost Tales (1983) would have been the original (and full) Fall of Gondolin - which itself is only publishable in context (the Mythology for England). Christopher Tolkien acknowledges that there were far fewer justifications for putting it out than with The Silmarillion (1977) or even Unfinished Tales (1980).

He also notes that he wasn't intending to cover the drafts of The Lord of the Rings - but the transformation of The Silmarillion doesn't make sense without it (Galadriel, for one, had to be retrospectively inserted into the older work), and the popularity of the series meant he went with it. The History of Middle-earth doesn't cover The Hobbit drafts, which only appeared with the Ratecliff duology.

[Calibandar]

On 14-2-2016 at 7:10 AM, TheWhiteWalker said:

I already own all 12 books of History of Middle Earth. So, is there any point in me buying Unfinished Tales now, or are all of its contents already contained by History of Middle Earth?

Definitely, it's a great book because it has so many different stories /essays about the world, and these are generally not replicated in the HoME series. As for the HoMe series, a few I really liked, others can be exhausting.