US Politics: Scalia Dead at 79

[DireWolfSpirit]

The old thread's over 400, this is for politics/issues other than the 2016 General Election.

For those not well versed on the Flint leadwater scandal, Rachel Maddow recently gave this report, very helpful in sorting out some of the "What did they know and when did they know it?"

 

 

[ants]

DebL said:

Quote

I saw someone mention Colin Powell and Condi Rice...Colin Powell stated that he used secure email for classified dealings and used personal email for friends, family, and State Dept "housekeeping" issues, which would seem to indicated non secure.  Condi apparently did not use much email at all.  Both also predate 2009 State Dept email directives, which I assume were put in place over security concerns of private email use.   

How is this different from what Clinton said? Condi might not have used much email - but can you be sure none on the private server were classified without checking?

I am interested - if its found that out of the (probably) hundreds of thousands of emails that Clinton received/sent, that one or two over the four year period were classified and shouldn't have been there, do you think that is a major issue, or more than a slap on the wrist thing? I mean, I think if its found lots and lots of classified material is found on Clinton's private server that most here will think that's a problem. But what if it's an odd email or two out of every 100,000?

 

On a side note, I would point out that you can take a classified email, take very specific parts out of it into a new email, and it is possible for the new email not to be classified. Obviously it depends exactly what is taken out or not. But we don't have much information about even the alleged incidences certain media outlets are crowing/outraged over.

Bonesy, serious question given your credentials. At what point does something that is classified become declassified, and was Clinton a senior enough position to perform that? I'm thinking of things like if the President decides X will be announced publicly, then presumably at some point in the process between that decision and the public announcement X is no longer classified. And afterwards presumably some "old" classified material relating to X may no longer be classified, as its subject matter is in the public domain.

I'm assuming the President can do this. Would Clinton have similar powers? Can the Secretary of State decide certain classified information will be made public? Or is that only the president, or some other position(s)? Or does it matter who made it classified - the state department or another department?

[Bonesy]

It would require an official (either the originating officer or a senior to that position) to de-classify or downgrade a classification. Unless there was an included timeframe of supercession.

The SecState could certainly do this, but not on a whim out of frustration as alleged.

In any case, the official that de-classifies or downgrades the classification is on the hook if it turns out to have been a "bad idea."

So we end up with piles of classified drek that shouldn't be, just in case.

That's how paranoid these things can be and why frivolity seems appalling.

[Tears of Lys]

9 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

The old thread's over 400, this is for politics/issues other than the 2016 General Election.

For those not well versed on the Flint leadwater scandal, Rachel Maddow recently gave this report, very helpful in sorting out some of the "What did they know and when did they know it?"

 

 

This is a big SHIT SANDWICH right now - (the inability of folks in Flint to drink the water.)  It made the cover of Time magazine - just the thing the "Pure Michigan" tourist campaign needs. (sarcasm.) 

At its heart, it seriously calls into question the "emergency manager" appointments that have been such a controversial, yet oft-used method of states taking control of poorly run, mismanaged, or simply poverty-stricken cities. 

This particular example, Flint, is very complicated, but simply put: Flint is a poor city, lots of minorities, can't pay its bills, governor appoints emergency manager, EM in an attempt to cut costs changes the water supply from Detroit water to a nearby river, inadequate screening of said water results in LOTS of children being exposed to lead in their water.  This is a continuing situation.  As I said, it's extremely complicated since the EM wasn't alone in making this decision, SOME folks DON'T have lead in their water, etc., etc.

The MDEQ, Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, that's supposed to monitor stuff like this, is sort of a Vichy-style organization put into place in '95 by Republican Governor John Engler, pretty much to deal with the annoying and petty concerns of environmentalists, who stood in the way of PROGRESS! 

Here's what WIKI says about MDEQ:

In 2015 and 2016, the Michigan DEQ was criticized for its role in the Flint water crisis; agency officials repeatedly dismissed citizens' concerns about water quality in Flint, leading to a delay in addressing lead poisoning in the city's water supply. The DEQ also revised water samples to wrongly indicate that the water was safe, changing the lead-level results from unacceptable to acceptable, delaying action.^[17] DEQ Director Dan Wyant acknowledged in October 2015 that the department had failed to follow the relevant federal regulation and had made other errors.^[18] The department also initially dismissed a researcher's reports about rising blood lead levels in Flint children.^[19] A December 2015 report by the Flint Water Advisory Task Force found that "primary responsibility" for the Flint water crisis lies with the DEQ and that the department had agency "failed in its responsibility" to ensure safe drinking water.^[19] Governor Snyder issued an apology, and DEQ director Wyant and DEQ public information officer Brad Wurfel resigned over the affair. 

Needless to say, there's going to be many heads rolling in the streets as a result of this.  (I hope.) 

[TerraPrime]

14 minutes ago, Tears of Lys said:

Needless to say, there's going to be many heads rolling in the streets as a result of this.  (I hope.) 

I would prefer drawn and quartered, but I've always had a fondness for horses.

[NoneofYourBiz]

8 hours ago, ants said:

DebL said:

How is this different from what Clinton said? Condi might not have used much email - but can you be sure none on the private server were classified without checking?

I am interested - if its found that out of the (probably) hundreds of thousands of emails that Clinton received/sent, that one or two over the four year period were classified and shouldn't have been there, do you think that is a major issue, or more than a slap on the wrist thing? I mean, I think if its found lots and lots of classified material is found on Clinton's private server that most here will think that's a problem. But what if it's an odd email or two out of every 100,000?

On a side note, I would point out that you can take a classified email, take very specific parts out of it into a new email, and it is possible for the new email not to be classified. Obviously it depends exactly what is taken out or not. But we don't have much information about even the alleged incidences certain media outlets are crowing/outraged over.

 

Ants,

The difference, from my understanding, is that Colin Powell was not subject to directives on the use of personal email that Clinton was, since the directive came after his time as Secretary of State.  I am honestly unsure of what the directives were regarding use of personal email during his time, and what the retention rules were, I only know that new directives came out from National Archives in 2009 and also directives from the Obama White House and the State Dept that Hillary was subject to that Powell was not.  Also, Powell did not have a private server, just a private email.

I am just going by news reports, obviously, but it seems that it was not a matter of one or two emails containing classified information, but over a thousand, and we are still waiting on yet another email dump to go through, so there is potentially and probably more.  That is pretty egregious, and certainly the level of such classified info in the SAP category is concerning as well.  

Finally,in this instance, from what we know, this info was cut from a secure network, and sent unsecure.  That is illegal.  Again, I am going from news reports, so we'll have to see what the actual evidence is.  

[lokisnow]

I'd prefer the unelected, unaccountable republican appointed dictators (emergency managers) be imprisoned for life without possibility of parole.

[NoneofYourBiz]

7 hours ago, Bonesy said:

It would require an official (either the originating officer or a senior to that position) to de-classify or downgrade a classification. Unless there was an included timeframe of supercession.

The SecState could certainly do this, but not on a whim out of frustration as alleged.

In any case, the official that de-classifies or downgrades the classification is on the hook if it turns out to have been a "bad idea."

So we end up with piles of classified drek that shouldn't be, just in case.

That's how paranoid these things can be and why frivolity seems appalling.

Bonesy, can SecState declassify documents that don't originate from State?  

[DanteGabriel]

28 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

 

I'd prefer the unelected, unaccountable republican appointed dictators (emergency managers) be imprisoned for life without possibility of parole.

Just make them drink the fucking water. And stop pretending we can run governments the same way people run businesses.

On a related note, Jeb Bush thinks Governor Rick "Poisoned People with Lead" Snyder is doing a heckuva job. What the fuck is it about the congenitally twisted Bush dynasty and their penchant for backpatting incompetent civil servants who allow entire American cities to backslide into the Third World?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Hey Politicians, Stop Saying Lincoln Was a Unifying Leader

Hillary Clinton is taking some criticism for what some are calling historical revisionism in an answer she gave at last night’s town hall about why Abraham Lincoln is the president that inspires her most. After praise for Lincoln’s vision and political gifts, she said:

"You know, he was willing to reconcile and forgive. And I don't know what our country might have been like had he not been murdered, but I bet that it might have been a little less rancorous, a little more forgiving and tolerant, that might possibly have brought people back together more quickly. But instead, you know, we had Reconstruction, we had the re-instigation of segregation and Jim Crow. We had people in the South feeling totally discouraged and defiant. So, I really do believe he could have very well put us on a different path."

The answer seems to imply that Reconstruction was a mistake, or at least that white southerners’ resentment of it was justified. As my colleague Jamelle Bouie tweeted, Clinton’s answer “reflects an older consensus that is still in public view.” As the historian Eric Foner wrote last year, that view held that during Reconstruction, “radical Republicans in Congress, bent on punishing defeated Confederates, established corrupt Southern governments presided over by carpetbaggers (unscrupulous Northerners who ventured south to reap the spoils of office), scalawags (Southern whites who supported the new regimes) and freed African-Americans, unfit to exercise democratic rights.”

Today, scholars, particularly liberal leaning ones, are more likely to argue, Foner says, that “if the era was ‘tragic,’ it was not because Reconstruction was attempted but because it failed.”

...

A similar view of Lincoln was evident in President Obama’s State of the Union address last week:

"It’s one of the few regrets of my presidency — that the rancor and suspicion between the parties has gotten worse instead of better. There’s no doubt a president with the gifts of Lincoln or Roosevelt might have better bridged the divide, and I guarantee I’ll keep trying to be better so long as I hold this office."

As Politico’s Ben Weyl noted, a president whose “election literally caused a civil war” was an interesting choice for an example of a unifying figure. Yes, Lincoln bridged America’s political divides, but through force of arms during a long and bloody war, not through his political gifts.

 

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

1 hour ago, DebL66 said:

Bonesy, can SecState declassify documents that don't originate from State?  

No, only the original classifying authority can declassify a document (that is the entity that originally classified it)

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, TerraPrime said:

I would prefer drawn and quartered, but I've always had a fondness for horses.

Either way, make sure you tar and feather 'em first!

[Inigima]

1 hour ago, lokisnow said:

 

I'd prefer the unelected, unaccountable republican appointed dictators (emergency managers) be imprisoned for life without possibility of parole.

I still don't really understand how this institution exists. Surely it's unconstitutional.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Inigima said:

I still don't really understand how this institution exists. Surely it's unconstitutional.

Perhaps a real test for the "Republican form of Government" clause?

[Kalbear]

The directives about personal email came after Clinton in either 2013 or 2014.

[lokisnow]

 

What the fuck is it about the congenitally twisted Bush dynasty and their penchant for backpatting incompetent civil servants who allow entire American cities to backslide into the Third World?

I think the bush family loves incompetent civil servants because they're "starving the government until it is small enough to drown in a bathtub (full of flint water)" so the incompetence is what they want because sabotaging effective governance is THE goal.

[DanteGabriel]

Just now, lokisnow said:

I think the bush family loves incompetent civil servants because they're "starving the government until it is small enough to drown in a bathtub (full of flint water)" so the incompetence is what they want because sabotaging effective governance is THE goal.

Bush the Elder didn't seem to be of that school, but no doubt his vile children have drunk the Reaganite Kool-aid.

[lokisnow]

Bush the Elder didn't seem to be of that school, but no doubt his vile children have drunk the Reaganite Kool-aid.

Bush the elder had to pretend to be a new republican from Texas, and thus real heir to reagan, but was a died in the wool Rockefeller republican very much like his father. He governed like a northeast conservative too, sensibly.

[DireWolfSpirit]

"By the way we had that water brought in special for you folks."

 

 

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't know why the Republican party didn't just have Snyder fall on his sword.  The GOP could have earned a lot of good will had they decided that they were going to treat the poisoning of children as a matter worthy of outrage.  Every time one of the candidates refuses to offer strong commentary or says something like Snyder is doing a heckuva job, they further drive away an important and growing voting base.