Lack of Intelligence ruined Stannis and Robb

[devilish]

One of the biggest problems in the rebellion was that the individual self interest became more important that the cause itself (ie bring justice to KL). Why would they? Robb won a couple of battles against the Lannisters and even captured Jamie. Stannis was able to take the Stormlands with a ridiculous force and Renly was able to amass a ridiculous amount of soldiers despite having no real claim to it.

However things would have surely changed  if Stannis/Robb learnt about the Tyrell-Lannister alliance. At that point neither Stannis nor Robb had the necessary soldiers to fight that army and would have had to co-operate. The tragic thing is that together Stannis and Robb could have inflicted some real damage to the Lannisters and there were the basis of a possible alliance  that could have easily made everyone happy.

Let me explain

a- Once Stannis learnt of the news he takes all his troops to sea. However instead of landing to Breakwater's bay he goes further North to White Harbour. Swift Negotiations with Lord Manderly are made, which would allow Stannis to land in exchange of him offering his wife as ward and Stannis leads army to Moat Cailin, liberating it and opening the Northern gates to Robb Stark

b- Lord Walder finds himself surrounded by two massive armies and have to postpone his red wedding plans and open the gates. Stannis reveal the news to Robb and encourage him to move North. Robb accepts, but not before sending ravens to Lord Tywin warning him that if he tries to invade the Riverlands  again than he will send his son in pieces. Robb and Stannis swifly put things in order in the North and during that time they meet Arya. 

c- Mace and Tywin face a dreadful prospect of having to invade the North. Mace is pushing for this invasion but Tywin is reluctant. No Lannister army had moved so North and they have Jamie. Meanwhile the marriage between Joffrey and Margaery is made, Joffrey dies, Margaery marries Tommen and strains between Tyrells  and Lannisters start showing up. Tywin die, Tyrion flees etc

d- The iron born invade the Reach and the Golden company lands in the Stormlands, forcing Tyrells and Lannisters to extend their frontiers. Stannis and Robb march south (Robb had more time to regroup and move his armies south) and open another front in the Reach. At that point the Tyrells will have to negotiate. Mace bends the knee to Stannis as Mace and Margaery (+ Tommen are forgiven). 

e- Robb and Stannis invade KL. Stannis become King of Westeros - Riverlands and North and state that he had changed the line of succession (from that of boy inheriting everything to that were the oldest child inherit everything). Robb marries Shireen and their children will rule lall Westeros, the first born will become king, their second born will take the North (Lord Paramount) and their third born taking the Stormlands

f- The Lannisters are stripped of their land and titles which are given to the dispossessed Florents. Tommen and Margaery are kept to KL as guests. 

 

 

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Why should we assume that Joffrey and Tywin would die the same way as they do in the canon? Maybe Baelish delays his murder of Joffrey since everyone is still on red alert given that the war isn't over. Maybe he is discovered and he either flees or is executed. Maybe something entirely unexpected happens.

[WSmith84]

Stannis didn't even know about the Tyrell-Lannister alliance until the Blackwater. He sent men of his own to the Tyrell forces to demand fealty after Renly's death. The Blackwater is essentially the moment when it is revealed that the Tyrells have backed the Lannisters.

Also, as King Floki pointed out, Joffrey and Tywin wouldn't necessarily die in this scenario. And we can't expect the characters to act like they know that they would. Nor could they know of the Golden Company's invasion.

Now you're right that they could perhaps have formed an alliance that could seriously threaten the Lannister-Tyrell one, but even that's not guaranteed to emerge victorious. And Stannis was all about his rights back then; the idea of aiding the North in exchange for fealty would probably make him balk. Stannis didn't even reach out to the Vale (like Cressen suggested) or Dorne for allies; probaby wouldn't have worked, but Stannis couldn't have known about Lysa and Littlefinger or Doran's 'master' plan, so the fault wouldn't lie with him.

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

The entire Stark family tree seems to be made up of halfwits. 

Ned - Honor before intelligence
Robb - Vagina before intelligence
Jon - Duty before intelligence
Catelyn - Emotion before intelligence.
Sansa - Dreams before intelligence.
 

The only intelligent Stark is Arya. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

So you would have Stannis run away to the far North and help a rebel when he actually had a decent shot at taking KL? 

I mean, of course Stannis should've contacted Robb, but the time to do this was just after Ned's death. If Stannis had sent his little letter then, there would've been none of that King in the North business, and Robb and Edmure would've in all likelihood declared for Stannis from the start. 

 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

Hindsight is 20/20 but Stannis thought there was no way he would lose @ blackwater 

[Ruhail]

Wildfire was truly the wild card of the defeat of Stannis at blackwater, its something Aerys was fond of using and noone else was so, it must have been a shock to see it being flung around

[thelittledragonthatcould]

56 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Hindsight is 20/20 but Stannis thought there was no way he would lose @ blackwater 

He did. That is why he rushed there.

"Ser Cortnay does not have the power to harm you. The Lannisters do. A siege would take too long, single combat is too chancy, and an assault would cost thousands of lives with no certainty of success. And there is no need. Once you dethrone Joffrey this castle must come to you with all the rest. It is said about the camp that Lord Tywin Lannister rushes west to rescue Lannisport from the vengeance of the northmen . . ."

He knew that he had to act quickly before Tywin got back or the Tyrells picked a side (which he knew would not be him) so he knew there was a possibility that he could lose on the Blackwater should he delay.

But the one area that shows his idiocy is his single minded idea of remaining King. He thinks merely sitting on the Throne and taking Kings Landing will put an end to everyone doubting that he is King, that they will just have to accept it.

This is hilariously shown when he presumes that they will ask him to be King after Joffrey is killed

"Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now."

"They will not," said Melisandre. "Joffrey has a brother."

"Tommen." The king said the name grudgingly.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

4 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

But the one area that shows his idiocy is his single minded idea of remaining King. He thinks merely sitting on the Throne and taking Kings Landing will put an end to everyone doubting that he is King, that they will just have to accept it.

This is hilariously shown when he presumes that they will ask him to be King after Joffrey is killed

"Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now."

"They will not," said Melisandre. "Joffrey has a brother."

"Tommen." The king said the name grudgingly.

 

But it's not that irrational, is it? If he takes KL, he gets rid of Joffrey, persuades/tortures Tyrion or someone and finds out who's hiding Tommen. Then it's just Myrcella to challenge his claim, but she's a girl (so that means she loses the support of traditionalists) and in the hands of the Dornish (which means she loses the support of the Reach). So really, as far as the subject of legitimacy goes, Stannis would be pretty much unchallenged. 

Sure, Tywin and Mace would still be out there, but any hope of an alliance between them dies with Joffrey and Tommen. And Tywin would have lost all three of his children, House Lannister at its lowest point. 

[Flying Cat]

I've always wondered why varys is the only spymaster we know of in westeros. You would think that in a world with so much political maneuvering, at least the big players should all have a master spy.

Another thing that puzzles me a lot is how everyone assumes the FM are the only assasins around. We know at least of the sorrow men, and there is always non-affiliated people willing to kill for money. Heck, even Joff was able to hire a catspaw to finish Bran off. But none of the guys think of hire everyday assasins to get rid of their enemies. Stannis has Mel doing shady magic with leeches (and himself) instead of just pay someone. The Ironbank is giving him money, so that is not an issue either...

[thelittledragonthatcould]

18 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

But it's not that irrational, is it? If he takes KL, he gets rid of Joffrey, persuades/tortures Tyrion or someone and finds out who's hiding Tommen. Then it's just Myrcella to challenge his claim, but she's a girl (so that means she loses the support of traditionalists) and in the hands of the Dornish (which means she loses the support of the Reach). So really, as far as the subject of legitimacy goes, Stannis would be pretty much unchallenged. 

Sure, Tywin and Mace would still be out there, but any hope of an alliance between them dies with Joffrey and Tommen. And Tywin would have lost all three of his children, House Lannister at its lowest point. 

If the majority of the World does not want you to rule them that is not going to change just because you kill all the other claimants. They will just find others with claims or even go independent but they were not going to just accept him as King because he had taken Kings Landing.

 

This is why Renly was the better options. He worked at forging the alliances needed to not only become King but stay in power with having a large amount of Lords who supported him.

[The Wolves]

Intelligence ain't got shit to do with it, some of the dumbest characters are alive ex: the Lannister twins, Joffery made it to book three so did Lysa etc.... 

It's luck something Robb lacked in this series. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

If the majority of the World does not want you to rule them that is not going to change just because you kill all the other claimants. They will just find others with claims or even go independent but they were not going to just accept him as King because he had taken Kings Landing.

 

This is why Renly was the better options. He worked at forging the alliances needed to not only become King but stay in power with having a large amount of Lords who supported him.

I see your point, but killing the other claimants would've gone a looong way for Stannis. For starters, I think it's very likely that Robb and Edmure would've bent the knee to him, as Robb said in Storm. In the absence of another claimant, the Tyrells might've gone the neutral way, like the Vale. So really, the only threats for Stannis would've been Tywin and the Ironborn. 

[Flying Cat]

Intelligence ain't got shit to do with it, some of the dumbest characters are alive ex: the Lannister twins, Joffery made it to book three so did Lysa etc.... 

It's luck something Robb lacked in this series. 

I think the OP means intelligence in the military way, as in knowing what your enemy is doing, spying and such

[Dayla Dayne]

If all that you said happen, who would help the Night's Watch with Mance Rayder?

I think in Westeros nobody has a brain, only mashed peas inside their skulls. Stannis and Renly should stop fighting. Actually, it's kinda lack of verisimilitude that this both characters has less morality than Victarion, who define he would never kill his own brother, fearing the judgement of his god. How Stannis and Renly want to become kinslayers? They both know that they would face each other in battlefield sometime. The Faith of the Seven and the Red Faith of R'hllor don't convict the murder of brother? The commom people convicted Maekar for the murder of his brother, even being on a trial of seven. That's kindda odd to me.

If Stannis made Renly his heir (he probably know that Shireen was far from siting on the Iron Throne), and joined Robb, the three could smash Lannister army. Besides, what allies the golden lions has? The Vale don't care, Dorne remembers Elia.

[Scarn]

In hindsight maybe. This isn't a video game though. You can't just go "lol k 2v2". Neither of them lacked intelligence. Maybe they made a couple of bad decisions, but more than that they were unlucky as hell