Puns and Wordplay

[Pain killer Jane]

21 hours ago, Seams said:

Pondering whether there might be a wordplay hint about the straw, I thought of the unusual choice of words from Tyrion, comparing a warg and a wart. If there is a pun on straw and wart, this might be our hint. In The Once and Future King, the future King Arthur is nicknamed "Wart."

Are there any ASOIAF characters described as having warts that might help us to sort out this word pair? If that character is related to the Targs, it could confirm the connection. Is contracting greyscale similar to having a wart problem?

Hmm.....well warts could be anything really. But I think since the you quoted Tyrion using warg and wart and Lancel. I would say that in that particular quote 'wart' should be amended to wart [hog] since Lancel giving King Robert (a fertility god archetype) undiluted wine led to him losing to a boar which a warthog is similar to a boar. And Robert was gourd in the groin all the way up to his nipple. 

And the quote should also be examined in the context of Varamyr, talking about skinchangers. All wargs are skin changers but not all skinchangers are wargs. Warg is the term exclusive to those that can skin change wolves. And we do have wargs and a skin changer that skinchanges a boar named Borroq. And one thing too, Varamyr if I remember correctly does not name boars as a prey animal that when skinchanged does not make their skinchanger a coward. So they should be like bears in a sense. Hunted down, eaten but are as dangerous as an animal classified as a predator. 

Now per the inclusion of warg/skinchanging and wineskin warrior, I can say that this could relate to Bryndyn Rivers having the nickname Bloodraven because he has a birthmark that is wine colored and goes back to the Edd's comment about being drowned in wine and Ygritte being boiled in the pool at Winterfell. 

And btw in rl warts are cause by a type of human papilomavirus and genital warts are sexually transmitted. So that could relate to greyscale. But warts on the nose, in our rl are connected with witches per again our modern brains. And therefore would be akin to a beauty mark, mole or liver spots. Brienne has a woman with a liver-colored spot wash her back. She should be considered a spotted person. Which have been noted as being killed. And the liver is where the toxin of alcohol is processed but abuse of alcohol leads to the death of the liver. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Pain killer Jane

[Pain killer Jane]

8 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Although I agree that mummer’s dragon alludes to a puppet king, I don't think the straw hat alludes to anything like that.  (As stated above.)  The wide-brimmed straw hat is worn most often by Egg.

And in most cases the straw hat is used as protection from the sun which while a sacrificed person is an offering to gods, a scarecrow also has the function of being a protective symbol by invoking fear. (Making the sign of the cross.) Egg in his floppy hat learned about the smallfolk and wanted to protect them from the abuses of the nobility which proved fruitless because his children (his fertility) didn't marry how they were supposed to in order to achieve that goal. So you can say in a sense Egg was impotent and Egg did burn like a straw man. 

But I am not saying all strawmen burn, I am saying that the strawmen are like golems; put together in order to protect. Berric is the scarecrow knight and he was reanimated by fire and had the one purpose of protecting the smallfolk. 

[Pain killer Jane]

22 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Dany is unable to bring peace (an aspect of fertility and life) to Meereen, and definitely won't in the future if "dragons plant no trees" is her new mantra. 

I agree with this. She is definitely acting out the proverb that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." 

[Pain killer Jane]

24 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Hmm, Brienne's hair is described as straw, and one of Daenerys' Dothraki handmaidens calls Doreah a "straw head slave."

And in the Rumplestiltskin story, he spins straw into gold. Jaime having beaten gold hair. That might be related.

Doreah is from Lys so that may be related. 

Btw, one thing I wanted to add that the straw hat is also like the lime stiffened hair and the whitewashing of the weriwood trees. All of those things protect from the sun. 

[Seams]

maise / maize

Maise: noun Scottish. a measure of herring. a straw basket for transport on horseback.

Maize: corn

But that night, when they feasted in the Great Hall, Robb was not with them. . . . It was left to Bran to fill his place at the head of the table, and act the host to Lord Karstark's sons and honored friends. They were already at their places when Hodor carried Bran into the hall on his back, and knelt beside the high seat. Two of the serving men helped lift him from his basket. Bran could feel the eyes of every stranger in the hall. It had grown quiet. "My lords," Hallis Mollen announced, "Brandon Stark, of Winterfell."

(AGoT, Bran VI)

Could there be significance that Bran is carried around in a maise and that he is closely associated with the raven and crow food, maize? Or maybe it's a red herring.

[cgrav]

Has anyone pointed out that "horn" and "corn" are cognates? Has Mormont's raven been trying to tell everyone about the Horn of Joramun this whole time?

only one instance of the two appearing close together, but there's no other reason for the raven to speak up at that moment:

Quote

"Buckwell's horn," the Old Bear announced. "The gods are good; Craster's still there." His raven gave a single flap of his big wings, croaked "Corn," and ruffled his feathers up again.

Clas Jon III

Plus a number of scenes in which the raven cries "Corn" at Jon right after Mormont has fed it.

and then there's the "corn king" line, which now could be a double entendres hinting first at Jon's characters archetype, and also at Horn of Joramun belonging to a King. 

 

And here's a corn in a symbolic image:

Quote

Crows circled the broken tower, waiting for corn

GoT Bran II

 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Has anyone pointed out that "horn" and "corn" are cognates? Has Mormont's raven been trying to tell everyone about the Horn of Joramun this whole time?

only one instance of the two appearing close together, but there's no other reason for the raven to speak up at that moment:

Plus a number of scenes in which the raven cries "Corn" at Jon right after Mormont has fed it.

and then there's the "corn king" line, which now could be a double entendres hinting first at Jon's characters archetype, and also at Horn of Joramun belonging to a King.

This is an interesting line of thinking. I have recently wondered whether the bag of corn carried by Mormont to feed the raven is like the bundle of obsidian Jon uncovers at the Fist of the First Men - with a horn. Obsidian pours out of the broken horn when Jon takes it out of the bundle. If your idea is correct, and if the obsidian stones and corn are also linked, maybe the two notions reinforce each other.

Jon eventually gives the broken horn to Sam, telling him he might use it for a drinking horn. If it's supposed to be a "horn of plenty," instead of a horn that makes noise, the corn would also be a logically-related element.

Earlier in the thread (I think it was this thread, but it may have been another), I wondered about a relationship among corn / crown / crone. But I think there's also a crown / drown pairing, so corn might have a partner in horn at some points.

[Isobel Harper]

5 hours ago, cgrav said:

Has anyone pointed out that "horn" and "corn" are cognates? Has Mormont's raven been trying to tell everyone about the Horn of Joramun this whole time?

only one instance of the two appearing close together, but there's no other reason for the raven to speak up at that moment:

Plus a number of scenes in which the raven cries "Corn" at Jon right after Mormont has fed it.

and then there's the "corn king" line, which now could be a double entendres hinting first at Jon's characters archetype, and also at Horn of Joramun belonging to a King. 

 

And here's a corn in a symbolic image:

 

Omg!  I've been wondering if Mormont's has been intermixing horn and corn for a WHILE now.  

Both h and k are voiceless and glottal, except h is fricative and k is plosive.  What this means basically is that both sounds are made in the same location of the throat/mouth, just behaving a little differently.

I know there are limits to which sounds a bird can make.  When we hear birds speaking, they are not necessarily pronouncing all of the correct sounds.  However, we hear what's sort of missing and hear what they say "correctly" in a sort of aural illusion.

I do not know (unfortunately) if birds can differentiate between h and k.   

[cgrav]

The c/horn thing actually came to me all of a sudden yesterday when I heard someone say "unicorn". Can't even remember why someone would have said unicorn, but it reminded me of the k/h alternation, and I guess I just had Ice and Fire on the brain.

what really made it click for me was the text search. It wasn't until then that I saw how many times Mormont basically says "He doesn't really want corn", which is a bright red flag that the raven'a shrieks have some other meaning.

[talvikorppi]

I'm dragging up this thread because I admire all the work you've done, all the food for thought you've given.

I don't agree with many of the - to me - tenuous pun/word play "links" like anagrams or foreign language "hints" but this kind of idea swapping will produce some gems in the end, it's good that this kind of conversation is going on. We'll all be enriched by it.

One query I have, though. Does anybody know GRRM's German skills?

In the 1980s in the US, you needed to have taken a year or two of a foreign language in high school to get into university. (At least in the states I lived in). Maybe it was similar when GRRM applied? So he might well have some knowledge of German. Or French or Spanish or whatever. To make cryptic foreign language word plays in his books. Right?

In my country, you don't even get to university without having done 2 foreign languages in high school. At university, you have to demonstrate a certain level of knowledge of 3 foreign languages. The easiest is reading comprehension, then listening comprehension, writing, speaking... aaw, I actually fluently speak 3 or 4 languages. Make terrible grammar mistakes, though. I can properly write only two, mine own and English.

I salute Missandei of the Island of Naath for her superior linguistic skills.

[Isobel Harper]

I found a possible origin for Theon being named "Reek."  I recently discovered the Icelandic legend of Arrow Odd.  In his travels, he comes across two krakens.

From Wiki: 

…these were two sea-monsters, one called Sea-Reek, and the other Heather-Back. The Sea-Reek is the biggest monster in the whole ocean. It swallows men and ships, and whales too, and anything else around. It stays underwater for days, then it puts up its mouth and nostrils, and when it does, it never stays on the surface for less than one tide.

These creatures later described in an Old Norwegian scientific work Konungs skuggsjá(c. 1250), were to come to be understood as what the Norse regarded as the Kraken. This is seemingly one of the first references to the Kraken.

 

[hiemal]

In another thread I briefly mentioned the idea of the tree with pennies nailed to it in Pennytree as a cent-tree (sentry)- and I would like to bring it up here and further mention that with the many times (so many times!) that GRRM mentions sentry pines and sentinel trees combined with the idea of the weirwood heart trees having faces I think the idea important enough to toss it in here. The idea of trees as observers is so central to the plot that I feel like I must be missing something!

Further- would the invading Andals have seen the carved weirwoods as sin-trees? Would the missing cedars of Meereen be scent-trees? I blame this thread for that kind of thinking....

 

 

thanks

Edited March 14, 2017 by hiemal

[hiemal]

OK- this one is complicated. Knights and lists. Traditionally, knights joust in the lists. The Maesters are the Knights of the mind, as Luwin tells Bran in AGoT, and they are also the knights of the lists- lists of Lord Commanders, lists of the supplies and transactions, lists of the seasons...

I'm a little vaguer on this part, but if I remember correctly the aisles between the stacks in a library can also "lists" so we have the possibility of the knights of the mind in the lists spending nights on lists of knights who jousted in the lists.

Edited March 14, 2017 by hiemal

[Seams]

On 3/14/2017 at 5:04 AM, talvikorppi said:

I'm dragging up this thread because I admire all the work you've done, all the food for thought you've given.

I don't agree with many of the - to me - tenuous pun/word play "links" like anagrams or foreign language "hints" but this kind of idea swapping will produce some gems in the end, it's good that this kind of conversation is going on. We'll all be enriched by it.

I'm glad if you feel enriched. I like idea swapping, too.

On 3/14/2017 at 8:57 AM, Isobel Harper said:

I found a possible origin for Theon being named "Reek."  I recently discovered the Icelandic legend of Arrow Odd.  In his travels, he comes across two krakens.

From Wiki: 

…these were two sea-monsters, one called Sea-Reek, and the other Heather-Back. The Sea-Reek is the biggest monster in the whole ocean. It swallows men and ships, and whales too, and anything else around. It stays underwater for days, then it puts up its mouth and nostrils, and when it does, it never stays on the surface for less than one tide.

These creatures later described in an Old Norwegian scientific work Konungs skuggsjá(c. 1250), were to come to be understood as what the Norse regarded as the Kraken. This is seemingly one of the first references to the Kraken.

I LOVE this. I bet you're right. Wow. Theon is the kraken.

On 3/14/2017 at 3:50 PM, hiemal said:

In another thread I briefly mentioned the idea of the tree with pennies nailed to it in Pennytree as a cent-tree (sentry)- and I would like to bring it up here and further mention that with the many times (so many times!) that GRRM mentions sentry pines and sentinel trees combined with the idea of the weirwood heart trees having faces I think the idea important enough to toss it in here. The idea of trees as observers is so central to the plot that I feel like I must be missing something!

Further- would the invading Andals have seen the carved weirwoods as sin-trees? Would the missing cedars of Meereen be scent-trees? I blame this thread for that kind of thinking....

thanks

Sentry / cent tree!

Great catch! The symbolism around coins seems very complex, but a lot of it comes back to Littlefinger as the longtime Master of Coin. Then again, Vargo Hoat wore a chain with coins from all over the place and there are a number of other pivotal scenes that involve coins. Jaqen giving Arya a coin, Arya taking coins from the Hound, the gold coin from the Reach found in the jailer's cell, Arya using a coin as a murder weapon.

But the Pennytree is unique in combining coins and a tree, and the tie to Ser Duncan the Tall through his mentor adds a layer of complexity. Is it a way for the tree to wear armor? Dunk takes and uses the armor that had belonged to Ser Arlan of Pennytree. (And Tyrion wears wooden armor that belongs to Penny.) The coins are nailed to the tree, and nails are also important symbols.

I would love to hear more ideas about the meaning of the Pennytree.

On 3/14/2017 at 3:57 PM, hiemal said:

OK- this one is complicated. Knights and lists. Traditionally, knights joust in the lists. The Maesters are the Knights of the mind, as Luwin tells Bran in AGoT, and they are also the knights of the lists- lists of Lord Commanders, lists of the supplies and transactions, lists of the seasons...

I'm a little vaguer on this part, but if I remember correctly the aisles between the stacks in a library can also "lists" so we have the possibility of the knights of the mind in the lists spending nights on lists of knights who jousted in the lists.

Interesting. Could be! Of course, your idea caused me to immediately search on the word "slit". Slits are usually eyes, holes in helmets, slit throats or arrow slits in walls. Not clearly connected to lists. Unless the knights in the lists have to peer through slits to read written lists before they slit their victims's throats. Maybe in the next book . . .

Edited March 16, 2017 by Seams

[LmL]

Pennies can be stars in ASOIAF, and are made of copper, which is a terrific conductor of electricity.. or a good way to draw lightning. The 'lightning striking the tree' motif of the Ironborn legend, the burning tree which transmits the fire of the gods to mankind, refers to (I believe) the weirwoods, whose bloody hands leaves are also described as a "blaze of flame."  So, the penny tree is a "star tree" by virtue of the pennies and also a "tree that wants to be struck by lightning." That lightning was actually a falling star, a moon meteor. That is why Dunk's sigil is a falling star and a tree - it's all about this idea of the lightning striking the tree. His horse is thunder, which alludes to the thunderbolt and also the deeper concept of a shamanic horse like Sleipnir, but I digress. 

This is not just my thinking; some of this comes from @Pain killer Jane and @Blue Tiger and @ravenous reader and perhaps a couple of others; I don't recall exactly but we pieced it together collaboratively is the point. 

[LmL]

edit: wrong thread

Edited March 16, 2017 by LmL

[Seams]

33 minutes ago, LmL said:

Pennies can be stars in ASOIAF, and are made of copper, which is a terrific conductor of electricity.. or a good way to draw lightning. The 'lightning striking the tree' motif of the Ironborn legend, the burning tree which transmits the fire of the gods to mankind, refers to (I believe) the weirwoods, whose bloody hands leaves are also described as a "blaze of flame."  So, the penny tree is a "star tree" by virtue of the pennies and also a "tree that wants to be struck by lightning." That lightning was actually a falling star, a moon meteor. That is why Dunk's sigil is a falling star and a tree - it's all about this idea of the lightning striking the tree. His horse is thunder, which alludes to the thunderbolt and also the deeper concept of a shamanic horse like Sleipnir, but I digress. 

This is not just my thinking; some of this comes from @Pain killer Jane and @Blue Tiger and @ravenous reader and perhaps a couple of others; I don't recall exactly but we pieced it together collaboratively is the point. 

Ok, everyone. No need for more discussion because this complex motif, like so many others, can be explained in terms of the ideas already laid out by this famous, erudite, unparalleled analyst of the original author (who is almost beside the point because the most important thing is the star and moon analyst). It has all been worked out and everything comes back to this idea. So stop trying to start other discussions. His friends all agree, so there is no point in ignoring him or asking him to go away or trying to encourage other people to pursue different lines of thought. Just give up and worship him.

But wait, there's more!

10 minutes ago, LmL said:

re: Jaime as the sun and Cersei the fire moon and still twins: consider Drogo and Dany. They are both fire - Dany is fire made flesh, but also the bride of fire who weds Drogo's solar fire. She "has the fire inside her," etc. She even starts dressing like him, like a Dothraki. 

And this has to do with puns and wordplay about the Pennytree because . . . Oh! Silly me! Because it interests you. How could I forget and try to start a discussion that doesn't come back to you. Please forgive me.

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

But the Pennytree is unique in combining coins and a tree, and the tie to Ser Duncan the Tall through his mentor adds a layer of complexity. Is it a way for the tree to wear armor? Dunk takes and uses the armor that had belonged to Ser Arlan of Pennytree. (And Tyrion wears wooden armor that belongs to Penny.) The coins are nailed to the tree, and nails are also important symbols.

I would love to hear more ideas about the meaning of the Pennytree.

 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Ok, everyone. No need for more discussion because this complex motif, like so many others, can be explained in terms of the ideas already laid out by this famous, erudite, unparalleled analyst of the original author (who is almost beside the point because the most important thing is the star and moon analyst). It has all been worked out and everything comes back to this idea. So stop trying to start other discussions. His friends all agree, so there is no point in ignoring him or asking him to go away or trying to encourage other people to pursue different lines of thought. Just give up and worship him.

But wait, there's more!

Wow, this seems a bit over the top. I am sorry you feel this way.   

- I never said or implied my / our analysis was exclusive to any other, not sure why you would take that meaning

- the point of sharing analysis is to start a conversation, not kill it. Every single time I comment on your thread, it is because I imagine an idea I have might help you in your own analysis. That's the only reason I take the time to comment. You were discussing something we had been discussing too, so I shared our thoughts about pennytree, thinking you might enjoy them or find something useful to your own inquiry. That's what people do on the forum - not sure why my opinion, couched in qualifiers like "such and such CAN refer to" and "I believe that," comes across as an attempt to kill the convo when you don't interpret other people's comments that way.

- "my friends" that I listed were, to the best of my knowledge, also your friends, as I know they comment on your threads and share ideas with you. I guess not? I mentioned them in the interest of not taking credit for other people's ideas or acting like a know-it-all. Unfortunately that seams not to have come across as I intended

- the rest of your invective is just bizarre. I'm sorry you have such a grudge against me, for what, I do not know. I'll be sure to leave you alone though!

Quote

And this has to do with puns and wordplay about the Pennytree because . . . Oh! Silly me! Because it interests you. How could I forget and try to start a discussion that doesn't come back to you. Please forgive me.

Actually this was a simple mistake, it was a comment intended for a different thread. However I am glad the mistake forced you to show your apparent true feelings of hostility. Now I know better than to try to share ideas with you. I only ever did that because I respect your analysis and your insights frequently overlap with my own. Clearly you do not appreciate my input, so I will stop trying to contribute to your thread. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by LmL

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Ok, everyone. No need for more discussion because this complex motif, like so many others, can be explained in terms of the ideas already laid out by this famous, erudite, unparalleled analyst of the original author (who is almost beside the point because the most important thing is the star and moon analyst). It has all been worked out and everything comes back to this idea. So stop trying to start other discussions. His friends all agree, so there is no point in ignoring him or asking him to go away or trying to encourage other people to pursue different lines of thought. Just give up and worship him.

But wait, there's more!

And this has to do with puns and wordplay about the Pennytree because . . . Oh! Silly me! Because it interests you. How could I forget and try to start a discussion that doesn't come back to you. Please forgive me.

First of all, This up here makes absolutely no sense. (Pun fully intended.) Hiemal's comment about the cent-tree/sentry is the coalescence of why the Others are akin to the NWs members. The Others are lightning struck cent-trees that are covered in ash. The Night's King the father of the Others was a watcher on the wall, a sentry and he came down from the wall like a falling star and crowned himself king. And because the damn Pennytree is in between Barba's/Missy's teats it is at the heart of what is going on. So it is disrespectful to act out this way.