house of dayne Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 If r+l=j is true, and the two of them secretly married, then jon by rights is rhaegars heir and neds true king. Yet as hand of the king ned rarely spends much time considering jon at all..In fact he seems far more concerned about daenerys and the plot to kill her..ned is famously haunted by his vision of lyannas deathbed and the promise she extracted..the haunting feeling ned gets as he recalls lyannas promise strongly implies guilt, as though the promise was unkept...yet ned never express any shame or guilt in regards to jon...remember, if rhaegar and lyanna eloped and birthed jon, by rights jon is neds king and lord, as well as kin...neds lie about his bloodlines denies jon his rightful birthright. Furthermore, he allows jon to take the back and swear an oath to give up all titles and claims without informing him off the truth...he does this without a single pang of guilt or thought about jons right to know..i get that he has a loyalty to robert but to not privately confide to jon the truth is a dark stain on his honour..not once does he consider the deep betrayal he has commited his rightful king...like it or not, jon has a claim to the iron throne and its not neds right to deny him...this essentialy the position he took in support of stannis against renly yet he never considered his own hypocrisy in lying to jon his whole life about his superior claim...given neds deep sense of honour it strikes me as out of character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Why would Ned consider the Targs his rightful rulers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 The Targaryens are not the "true" monarchs. They don't have an automatic right to the throne that supercedes everybody else; they're only the monarchs until they aren't. So no, Jon Snow is not Ned's "true king". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house of dayne Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 Because ever since the conqests the starks swore fealty to the targaryens..whether he prefers robert ot targ is irrelevant to the osth of fealty he swore before his gods...to most people of westeros that dont mean much but ned was a man of impecable and selfless honour and he took his vows deeply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 There is a lot of 'if' in your argument. If Jon is Rhaegar's son If they did get married If Ned recognizes polygamy If Ned still recognizes the Targaryen's as the ruling dynasty since he swore a new oath to Robert and has shown no indication of supporting Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house of dayne Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: There is a lot of 'if' in your argument. If Jon is Rhaegar's son If they did get married If Ned recognizes polygamy If Ned still recognizes the Targaryen's as the ruling dynasty since he swore a new oath to Robert and has shown no indication of supporting Viserys. Its a hypothetical argument...for what its worth i take neds lack of guilt or even thought of jon as proof that in his mind jon is not the son of rhaegar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozlym Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 so u would still want a house of crazies ruling over u rather then ur best friend just because ur great great great great great great grandpa had to for the greater good of his people? idc how ideal and sound a person may be, as long as it doesnt hinder them from making smart decisions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 10 minutes ago, house of dayne said: Because ever since the conqests the starks swore fealty to the targaryens..whether he prefers robert ot targ is irrelevant to the osth of fealty he swore before his gods...to most people of westeros that dont mean much but ned was a man of impecable and selfless honour and he took his vows deeply Ned isnt responsible for his ancestors. Do you believe that Ned should follow someone who wants to murder him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house of dayne Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 I think you are missing the point...ned feels no guilt regarding jon...he is more concerned with danerys than he his jon..the promise he made lyanna haunts him as though it was unkept..yet he connects that guilt to danerys not jon..he defies robert on her behalf ...if jon was lyannas son what promise did he fail to keep in regards to jon? Hes safe and his identity is secure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OIL, BLOOD, Water Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 The entire Baratheon line is Targaryen bastards, since Orys Baratheon was likely a Targaryen bastard. So when Robert wants to exterminate the Targaryens, he should have killed himself too. The only exception are those who married into the Baratheon line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Maybe ... just maybe, Eddard didn't want to be in a position where'd he have to choose between his surrogate brother and his adopted son/nephew. Even if it was elopement, the fact is that Rhaegar's recklessness and hubris still caused a civil war (one which caused the death of Eddard's father, Eddard's brother, and many of Eddard's friends and allies). So loyalty to House Targaryen wouldn't be enough to motivate Eddard to place Jon Snow on The Iron Throne. Additionally, there is the fact that he'd have to do so without support: Dorne and The Reach are the only two regions that fought in support of The Targaryens, and neither of them have good memories of that dynasty (Oberyn is pissed at Rhaegar for his treatment of Elia, even decades later. Mace meanwhile doesn't have fond memories of Aerys). Everyone else fought to throw The Targaryens into The Narrow Sea (and about time too - Westeros should be ruled by The Westerosi, NOT by High And Mighty Race-Supremacists!). So Eddard would be fighting to restore an unpopular dynasty. Finally, it would put Jon's life in unnecessary danger. It would be much safer for Jon Snow to stay at Castle Black looking for White Walkers who haven't been seen in 75 years, or to be Castellin of Moat Callin, or to anywhere other than The Iron Throne and all the assassins and whisperers who surround it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house of dayne Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 I never suggested that ned put jon on the throne...ned understands real world politics..its just strange that he doesnt think twice about jon despite his rather remarkable relevance to the iron throne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozlym Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 it just means hes a true friend to rob by not thinking of the possibility of over throwing him. he was with him to the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, Nozlym said: it just means hes a true friend to rob by not thinking of the possibility of over throwing him. he was with him to the end. To bad Robert couldn't show Ned that same loyalty maybe Ned would be alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truthbtold Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 IIrc in Game ( my sis has my book ) Ned felt shame while he was in the black cells on Jon's account, he probably intended to talk to him eventually. Whether Rheagar and Lyanna were married or not Ned likely didn't recognize the marriage and therefore felt that Jon was a bastard, all be it, a royal one. When Joffery's claim is placed against Jon's, in Ned's mind, then he feels regret, but it's too late. Ned felt that Jon's safely superseded all other considerations, which is probably why he protested over Dany and didn't feel shame about Jon at that time. He had protected Jon, but couldn't convince Robert to leave Dany alone. Ned is all about protecting the innocent. In the end he even confessed to BS to protect his daughters. He may have stained his honor by not being truthful, but for Ned protection is a higher good than his personal honor and that isn't hypocracy, IMO. Although one might argue that it didn't do Ned ( or Jon ) much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire Lady Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Ned lied so Robert (or some one else i.e. Tywin) wouldn't kill Jon, imo. King Robert had no problem seeing Rhaegar's children, Rhaenys and Aegon, dead. He didn't order their deaths but he never punished the Mountain,Lorch or Tywin for the murders either. Ned probably meant to tell Jon the truth when Jon was older and would be able to keep that info to himself,at least until King Robert (and his hatred of Targs) died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ice Wolf of Loki Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 1 hour ago, house of dayne said: I think you are missing the point...ned feels no guilt regarding jon...he is more concerned with danerys than he his jon..the promise he made lyanna haunts him as though it was unkept..yet he connects that guilt to danerys not jon..he defies robert on her behalf ...if jon was lyannas son what promise did he fail to keep in regards to jon? Hes safe and his identity is secure Maybe it is because the Daenerys of the series is not the child of Rhaella and Aerys born on Dragonstone but a child of Lyanna and Rhaegar born at the Tower of Joy? Given her Targaryen looks the only way Ned could protect her is placing her with Targaryen family in exile perhaps as a replacement for the 'real' Daenerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 1 hour ago, house of dayne said: I think you are missing the point...ned feels no guilt regarding jon...he is more concerned with danerys than he his jon..the promise he made lyanna haunts him as though it was unkept..yet he connects that guilt to danerys not jon..he defies robert on her behalf ...if jon was lyannas son what promise did he fail to keep in regards to jon? Hes safe and his identity is secure Ned feels LOTS of guilt regarding Jon. What Jon's presence did to Catelyn's feelings, a reminder to him of the loss of his sister, how much harder Jon's life possibly was as a bastard with an unknown mother. Also, Ned thinks of promises "and the price he paid to keep them". It isn't until later, when he's in the black cells, that he thinks of broken promises. It's not clear if these broken promises refer to Jon or to other people (like the whore who had Robert's child who Ned promised would want for nothing). It's certainly possible that the reason Ned gets so upset about Daenerys being targeted for assassination is because it reminds him of Jon's likely fate if his parentage is ever discovered by Robert. I believe he defied King Robert just as much on Jon's behalf as Dany's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 2 hours ago, house of dayne said: I think you are missing the point...ned feels no guilt regarding jon...he is more concerned with danerys than he his jon..the promise he made lyanna haunts him as though it was unkept..yet he connects that guilt to danerys not jon..he defies robert on her behalf ...if jon was lyannas son what promise did he fail to keep in regards to jon? Hes safe and his identity is secure So your opening post is just fluff then? Ned feels guilt but you seemed to suggest he should feel that way towards Jon because of the throne, which makes little sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 2 hours ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said: The entire Baratheon line is Targaryen bastards, since Orys Baratheon was likely a Targaryen bastard. A bastard is someone born out of wedlock, which does not apply to random Baratheon #17, only to Orys. Everyone everywhere for all time would be bastards if it were some hereditary title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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