Tyrells, Varys and fAegon

[Greymoon]

The Tyrells will side with fAegon, if they haven't already jumped ship by the beginning of feast... 

...at the beginning of feast, fAegon still intended to marry Danaerys and I believe the Spider was working to gain allies for them both, as a married pair.... But since fAegon landed in westeros without the dragon queen, the support Varys gained will go sorely to him.

There's a few things that have bothered me in the past. The Golden Company has "friends in the reach". Illyrio has casks of wine from Lord Redwyne's own private stock.... Hightowers, Redwynes, Tyrells...are one big intermarried family. The Queen of Thorns is a Redwyne by birth...  Alerie Hightower is wife of Mace Tyrell and mother of Margaery. 

I was re-reading the prologue chapter of feast, just yesterday, and found that something is up with Lazy Leo... Lets see how he is introduced to us...The acolytes speak about dragons, about Rhaegar's young son and about Dany....

Quote

 

"where's Rosey? Our rightful Queen [speaking about Danaerys] deserves another round of cider, wouldn't you say?" Armen the acolyte looked alarmed. "Lower your voice, fool. You should not even jape about such things. You never know who could be listening. The Spider has ears everywhere."

"Ah, don't piss you breeches Armen, I was proposing a drink, not a rebellion."

Pate heard a chuckle. A soft, sly voice called out fro behind him. "I always knew you were a traitor, Hopfrog." Lazy Leo was slouching by the foot of the old plank bridge, draped in satin striped in green and gold, with a black silk half cape pinned to his shoulder by a rose of jade.

 

The comment about the Spider is followed almost immediately by the introduction of Lazy Leo. That's not enough to make Lazy Leo an agent of Varys, of course... though I'd draw your attention to the color of his clothes. Green and gold.... green and gold are the colors of Aegon II, from the Dance of Dragons. Aegon II was half a hightower, and he usurped the throne of Rhaenyra... fAegon is bound to usurp the throne as well, in Dany's eyes at the very least. (cf the emerald thread, green = usuper)

Quote

Though there were a dozen empty tables on the terrace, Leo sat himself at theirs. "Buy me a cup of Arbor gold, Hopfrog, and perhaps I won't inform my father of your toast. The tiles turned against me at the Checkered Hazard, and I wasted my last stag on supper. Suckling pig in plum sauce, stuffed with chestnuts and white truffles. A man must eat."

Arbor gold means lies, there's plenty of textual evidence for that in the food code thread, while plum sauce and plums in general hint toward duplicity.... interestingly enough, early on in DwD, Tyrion and Illyrio Mopatis share a meal of sucking pig in plum sauce, too. The suckling pig, it's been theorized means "king"... I'd guess, this particular imagery stands for fAegon, in both cases. fAegon is a suckling pig in plum sauce.

Lastly, the "Checkered Hazard" calls to mind a chest board, a "game of thrones". I wasted my last stag on supper, another poster back on the food code thread suggested this as a metaphor for the Purple Wedding.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Lazy Leo works for Varys, truth be told. But there's certainly reason enough to think that the Tyrells are involved in the fAegon plot.... just in this chapter, we have an explicit mention of Varys, the master mind of the plot, a mention of Aegon's smashed skull...a small wink toward Aegon II of the Dance... and Leo eating the same sort of food that Illyrio eats...

Whatever the case might be, there are strong hints in this prologue that the Tyrells are playing a double game... Much later, Loras Tyrell offers to besiege Dragonstone...I wonder....was Dragonstone ever intended for the Lannisters? Or was it intended as a gift to fAegon, as a symbol for a new alliance? And how to reconcile all this with Margaery's marriage to Tommen?

[King Jaime Lannister]

Interesting thought on Lazy Leo. He stands out as in the chapter. I always look at his one eye being hidden by his hair. Not sure if this is a clue to something. I'm not sure if anyone ever has put together a theory on one-eyed characters or not. 

[Greymoon]

8 hours ago, King Jaime Lannister said:

Interesting thought on Lazy Leo. He stands out as in the chapter. I always look at his one eye being hidden by his hair. Not sure if this is a clue to something. I'm not sure if anyone ever has put together a theory on one-eyed characters or not. 

One eyed characters? Like... Euron Greyjoy? Brynden Rivers? Lazy Leo actually reminds me a bit of Satin. Satin comes from Oldtown too... anyway, thoughts on the Tyrells allegiance?

 

[RobOsevens]

9 hours ago, Greymoon said:

The comment about the Spider is followed almost immediately by the introduction of Lazy Leo. That's not enough to make Lazy Leo an agent of Varys, of course... though I'd draw your attention to the color of his clothes. Green and gold.... green and gold are the colors of Aegon II, from the Dance of Dragons. Aegon II was half a hightower, and he usurped the throne of Rhaenyra... fAegon is bound to usurp the throne as well, in Dany's eyes at the very least. (cf the emerald thread, green = usuper)

 

Green and gold are Tyrell colours... so are you saying all Tyrell's are plotting with Varys to join fAegon? Why would they entangle themselves with the Wot5K instead of conserving their strength and not allying with the Lannisters if they were always going to join fAegon? 

Or is it just Lazy Leo wearing his house colours that is working for / with Varys ?

[Queen Alienor]

9 hours ago, Greymoon said:

 

Whatever the case might be, there are strong hints in this prologue that the Tyrells are playing a double game... Much later, Loras Tyrell offers to besiege Dragonstone...I wonder....was Dragonstone ever intended for the Lannisters? Or was it intended as a gift to fAegon, as a symbol for a new alliance? And how to reconcile all this with Margaery's marriage to Tommen?

This is my biggest problem with the idea of the Tyrells working with fAegon, because if they are, they a) just handed the Lannisters a couple prime hostages (and they know how the Lannisters treat hostages, Sansa told them. Sure, she only talked about Joffrey, but at least Olenna is clever enough to realize that the Lannisters never stopped him) and b.) gave up their prime marriage option. Mace Tyrell wants to see his daughter queen, not the dishonored wife of the urspurpers bastard, which would likely destroy her politically.

The Hightowers are currently mustering like crazy, but that's probably more because of the Ironborn then because of fAegon, though it is worth to remember that the last LC of a Targaryen KG was Gerold Hightower, the White Bull.

The Redwynes... I'm not sure about, I don't remember any hints in either direction there.

[RobOsevens]

7 minutes ago, Queen Alienor said:

This is my biggest problem with the idea of the Tyrells working with fAegon, because if they are, they a) just handed the Lannisters a couple prime hostages (and they know how the Lannisters treat hostages, Sansa told them. Sure, she only talked about Joffrey, but at least Olenna is clever enough to realize that the Lannisters never stopped him) and b.) gave up their prime marriage option. Mace Tyrell wants to see his daughter queen, not the dishonored wife of the urspurpers bastard, which would likely destroy her politically.

The Hightowers are currently mustering like crazy, but that's probably more because of the Ironborn then because of fAegon, though it is worth to remember that the last LC of a Targaryen KG was Gerold Hightower, the White Bull.

The Redwynes... I'm not sure about, I don't remember any hints in either direction there.

100% agreement regarding the Tyrell's, Alienor

[chrisdaw]

Quote

Laswell Peake rapped his knuckles on the table. "Even after a century, some of us still have friends in the Reach. The power of Highgarden may not be what Mace Tyrell imagines."

Whatever/whoever the 'friends in the Reach' refers to, Mace is not part of it, so if there are Tyrells involved they're traitorous, the Tyrells would not all be acting in one clique.

I think there's something in there.

Quote

The tiles turned against me at the Checkered Hazard, and I wasted my last stag on supper. Suckling pig in plum sauce, stuffed with chestnuts and white truffles. A man must eat."

I think this is more likely to be foreshadowing the fate of the last royal Baratheon child, either Tommen or Myrcella (whichever survives longest), as they'll be the last Stag. The game (of thrones) turns against them and the last Stag is lost in an attempt on the throne.

[Greymoon]

9 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

Green and gold are Tyrell colours... so are you saying all Tyrell's are plotting with Varys to join fAegon? Why would they entangle themselves with the Wot5K instead of conserving their strength and not allying with the Lannisters if they were always going to join fAegon? 

Or is it just Lazy Leo wearing his house colours that is working for / with Varys ?

I'm saying that Tyrells are playing a double game, that they are unsure of their Lannister allies and have a plan B, so to say, one that involves fAegon. They are keeping options open, should things not go their way with the Lannisters. And that's the case by the end of Feast.

So, why involve themselves in the Wot5k? because the fAegon option was unknown to them at the time the war started.

As for the rest...

People do not always wear their house colors...Red and black are Targaryen colors... Yet Jaime, a Lannister, wears red and black at the feast in Winterfell....that said, the choice of dress for Lazy Leo is not, imo, a hazard. Yes, it's the Tyrell colors... but he's also training to become a maester, isn't he? so he could have worn other nondescript robes.

The importance of Leo's dress is to do with the overall context of that chapter and other inter and extra textual clues. We know green is the color of Aegon II (plus his dragon was gold), while black is the color of Rhaenyra. Via Drogon, black seems to be the color of Dany... and via Rhaegal, green seems to be the color of fAegon - that is, if you believe that fAegon will ride Rhaegal. But even if you don't, green as established in this thread as the color of  usurpers. In the books, green is heavily associated to the Lannisters....

So we have Green = usurper and Black = true heir of the Targayren dynasty...now we go back to the context, within the chapter. As mentioned above, the acolytes are speaking about dragons. In particular, they are talking about Daenerys, and toasting to her name...

During this talk, Aegon, son of Rhaegar also gets mentioned and just before Lazy Leo makes his appearances, the acolytes mention treason and Varys. Later, Leo desires a cup of Arbor Gold (lies, a drink favored by Littlefinger) and speaks of eating suckling pig in plum sauce (duplicity and king)... that same meal is later eaten by Illyrio Mopatis, the other master mind behind the fAegon plot.

Much much later in the books, we see how the Lannister and Tyrell alliance becomes increasingly strained. This culminates with Cersei accusing Margaery of adultery... straining the relationship is also Loras getting heavily injured during the storming of dragonstone... to never be seen again. All reports we have about Loras are second-hand reports....

Events in a Dance with Dragon and in Feast are happening in parallel, during the same time frame. At the end of Dance, fAegon lands in westeros... who are his "friends in the reach"? if not the Tyrells, thatare kin to the Redwynes and the Hightowers?

[Greymoon]

12 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Whatever/whoever the 'friends in the Reach' refers to, Mace is not part of it, so if there are Tyrells involved they're traitorous, the Tyrells would not all be acting in one clique.

I think there's something in there.

I think this is more likely to be foreshadowing the fate of the last royal Baratheon child, either Tommen or Myrcella (whichever survives longest), as they'll be the last Stag. The game (of thrones) turns against them and the last Stag is lost in an attempt on the throne.

Great, thanks for the quote! ... but which Tyrells? Illyrio has some wine casks from Lord Redwyne's private store...That would seem to imply that House Redwyne is involved in the plot.... yet, how can that be, if Mace Tyrell are not? Is Olenna Redwyne acting against her own son?

[Greymoon]

41 minutes ago, Queen Alienor said:

The Redwynes... I'm not sure about, I don't remember any hints in either direction there.

Besides that Olenna Redwyne is the mother of Mace Tyrell. Should we treat these houses as separate entities?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Lady Tanda tried to draw suitors for Lollys with suckling pig too. Maybe Lollys is a secret Targ. 

 

Sometimes tacky clothes are just tacky clothes. 

[Queen Alienor]

25 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

Besides that Olenna Redwyne is the mother of Mace Tyrell. Should we treat these houses as separate entities?

I'd say so, yes. Olenna is certainly a powerful person, and connected to house Tyrell and Redwyne, but the Tullys and the Arryns aren't treated as the same entity just cause Lysa was a Tully, either. There is some connection between the houses, but that does not mean that they act the same way politically.

[Greymoon]

1 hour ago, Queen Alienor said:

I'd say so, yes. Olenna is certainly a powerful person, and connected to house Tyrell and Redwyne, but the Tullys and the Arryns aren't treated as the same entity just cause Lysa was a Tully, either. There is some connection between the houses, but that does not mean that they act the same way politically.

Are you comparing Lysa Tully's political clout to that of the Queen of Thorns? I think the situation is a bit different.

[Queen Alienor]

9 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

Are you comparing Lysa Tully's political clout to that of the Queen of Thorns? I think the situation is a bit different.

Sure, the situations a bit different, but it's the principle. Just because a marriage happened between two families that does not make them the same political entity. Usually, there exists some alliance and feeling of family between them, but that doesn't mean that they can't follow opposing political strategies. And while Olenna Redwyne is a figure who is certainly seems capable of holding her whole family together, we don't really know her relationship with the Redwynes these days, so I wouldn't just assume that they'll listen to her blindly and always follow her lead. That's all I'm saying.

[chrisdaw]

Olenna is an isolationist and would not involve herself in any of this nonsense.

[Scarn]

Yeah there would be no reason for Mace to waste men and resources on the Lannisters if he had planned to join Aegon later. Redwynes or Hightowers might be cool though.

 

Spoiler

Wasnt Arianne promised to Aegon?

 

[TheSnowInWinterfell]

Lady Tanda tried to draw suitors for Lollys with suckling pig too. Maybe Lollys is a secret Targ. 

 

Sometimes tacky clothes are just tacky clothes. 

This....

Sometimes, a pig (suckling or not) is just a pig....

There's already a ton of stuff going on in that chapter.

If I had to wager a guess as to who would be their "friends in the Reach" my money would be on some smaller house known to go against their liege lords in the past. The Tarlys and Fossoways come to mind.

[Greymoon]

3 hours ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

This....

Sometimes, a pig (suckling or not) is just a pig....

There's already a ton of stuff going on in that chapter.

If I had to wager a guess as to who would be their "friends in the Reach" my money would be on some smaller house known to go against their liege lords in the past. The Tarlys and Fossoways come to mind.

But we know GRRM is fond of metaphors and imagery! ...have you bothered reading the food code thread? People complain about GRRM's fascination with food all the time, but surely, food porn is a good way to pass along hidden messages. Isn't it? I'm not saying it's 100 % imagery at every meal, but... some things are recurrent, Arbor Gold is one of them, for example.

[Greymoon]

7 hours ago, Queen Alienor said:

Sure, the situations a bit different, but it's the principle. Just because a marriage happened between two families that does not make them the same political entity. Usually, there exists some alliance and feeling of family between them, but that doesn't mean that they can't follow opposing political strategies. And while Olenna Redwyne is a figure who is certainly seems capable of holding her whole family together, we don't really know her relationship with the Redwynes these days, so I wouldn't just assume that they'll listen to her blindly and always follow her lead. That's all I'm saying.

But the Tyrells are overlords of the Reach, the Redwynes are sworn to them. That's not quite the same situation with Lysa and the Tullys. Lysa governs the Vale, as widow of Jon Arryn, while the Tullys govern the riverlands. I understand your argument, but the situation is not actually comparable, imo.

[Queen Alienor]

1 hour ago, Greymoon said:

But the Tyrells are overlords of the Reach, the Redwynes are sworn to them. That's not quite the same situation with Lysa and the Tullys. Lysa governs the Vale, as widow of Jon Arryn, while the Tullys govern the riverlands. I understand your argument, but the situation is not actually comparable, imo.

I admit it was a bad comparison. Maybe a better one would be that the Whents would not be considered the same political entity with the Tullys, just because Minisa Whent was the mother of Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure. (Of course the Whents are all dead, but... they'd still be seen as a different family that can advance their goals that could be different from the Tullys)