Origin of the Seven

[Lady Barbrey]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

While it is clear that the spectrum symbolizes the Seven I'm pretty sure nobody cooked up the gods to fit the spectrum. They would have chosen that as a symbol. The Faith is a polytheistic religion at heart, only interpreting itself as monotheism among the progressive/learned branch. But the light perfectly embodies that interpretation - the white light is the deity and the colored light symbolizes all its aspects.

One wonders whether the original Seven were originally individual polytheistic gods with names of their own rather than just functional names like the Father, the Mother, etc. only developing into such figures over time (perhaps even before the Andals moved to Westeros). It is easily imaginable that the Father and the Mother were Zeus- and Hera-like father/mother gods who are the parents of the Maiden (an Aphrodite- or Artemis-like goddess), the Warrior (Ares), and the Smith (Hephaestus). The Crone could be a goddess from a previous generation (like Zeus' grandmother Gaia), and the Stranger being a dangerous deity from 'outside', or something like that.

In that sense the original Seven could actually have been some mortal/half-mortal heroic people from ancient past living on the Axe comparable to the heroes from the Dawn Age or the Age of Heroes which were then later deified and worshiped by the Andals.

Yes, I think you're right, and it is how religions/myth normally transform. I myself think the seven were derived from the nine gods the First Men originally brought over, but evolved into the Andal seven on Essos while they grew to almost extinction on Westeros as the FM started worshipping trees. This explains to me some of the overlap of the Seven with FM mythos when the Andals arrived - they stem from the same base, evolved independently, and met up again with some similar remnants left over.

In original form, the gods were likely nature gods associated with particular heroes and animals. So we have the Storm God of the Baratheons, the Sea or Drowned God of the Iron Men, the Sky God of the Arryns, Fire God of the Targs, Ice God or Death God of the Starks, River God of the Tully's (and the Rhoynish kept this one in Essos), etc., with associated animals, Wolf, Dragon, Lion, Kraken, Fish, Eagle.  None of these exact correlations but regional correlations perhaps. So long in the past that only the totems and some pagan beliefs still exist. 

Through a trend toward Andal monotheism on Essos, they become aspects of one god, beginning their transformation into a family. Just a guess, but it makes sense of a few things in the World book, and there's real world historical precedent. 

[Lady Barbrey]

Just want to add to above because I can't seem to edit on my android. I think in some sense these nature gods are still around, and perhaps were not so much nature gods as "super" nature gods, lending their personas to different types of Planetos magic. That would explain why a wolf shadow appears in Dany's tent when magic is being done, or why animal shadows seem to move on the walls of that church when Catelyn prays to the Seven. The Seven, the Totem animals, FM nature gods - all different names or personas for real Planetos magic. 

[direpupy]

3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Yes, I think you're right, and it is how religions/myth normally transform. I myself think the seven were derived from the nine gods the First Men originally brought over, but evolved into the Andal seven on Essos while they grew to almost extinction on Westeros as the FM started worshipping trees. This explains to me some of the overlap of the Seven with FM mythos when the Andals arrived - they stem from the same base, evolved independently, and met up again with some similar remnants left over.

In original form, the gods were likely nature gods associated with particular heroes and animals. So we have the Storm God of the Baratheons, the Sea or Drowned God of the Iron Men, the Sky God of the Arryns, Fire God of the Targs, Ice God or Death God of the Starks, River God of the Tully's (and the Rhoynish kept this one in Essos), etc., with associated animals, Wolf, Dragon, Lion, Kraken, Fish, Eagle.  None of these exact correlations but regional correlations perhaps. So long in the past that only the totems and some pagan beliefs still exist. 

Through a trend toward Andal monotheism on Essos, they become aspects of one god, beginning their transformation into a family. Just a guess, but it makes sense of a few things in the World book, and there's real world historical precedent. 

Nine gods? i don't remember this and further in your post you only name six, could you elaberate?

[Lord Varys]

On 18.3.2016 at 6:30 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

Yes, I think you're right, and it is how religions/myth normally transform. I myself think the seven were derived from the nine gods the First Men originally brought over, but evolved into the Andal seven on Essos while they grew to almost extinction on Westeros as the FM started worshipping trees. This explains to me some of the overlap of the Seven with FM mythos when the Andals arrived - they stem from the same base, evolved independently, and met up again with some similar remnants left over.

In original form, the gods were likely nature gods associated with particular heroes and animals. So we have the Storm God of the Baratheons, the Sea or Drowned God of the Iron Men, the Sky God of the Arryns, Fire God of the Targs, Ice God or Death God of the Starks, River God of the Tully's (and the Rhoynish kept this one in Essos), etc., with associated animals, Wolf, Dragon, Lion, Kraken, Fish, Eagle.  None of these exact correlations but regional correlations perhaps. So long in the past that only the totems and some pagan beliefs still exist. 

Through a trend toward Andal monotheism on Essos, they become aspects of one god, beginning their transformation into a family. Just a guess, but it makes sense of a few things in the World book, and there's real world historical precedent. 

I actually don't think the First Men brought over any gods. They may have had their original deities - like Garth the Green, for instance (he seems to be an original First Man deity) - but Westeros would also have shaped their religious concepts. George indicates as much with two different island people deifying wind and storm in different fashions. The Ironborn loath their Storm God, he is the enemy of the Drowned God because he destroys their ships, but the Sistermen actually like their wind god (because he brings them ships they can plunder).

In addition there is a chance that the original First Men religions included the other non-human sentient beings in one way or another (say, the Deep Ones, other sentient creatures over there in Essos, and so on). Mostly those would have been included as demons or spirits or stuff like that.

But I guess Garth really was an important part of original First Men culture because he embodies the whole agriculture part of their civilization, a part that set them apart from the Children of the Forest and the giants. The First Men wouldn't have been as favorable towards the whole nature and animism thing that later came when they adopted the beliefs of the Children. And not all First Men did that.