JLE Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I think in the end she will be more heroic than villain - but only by turning *against* her heritage and giving up the throne and her connection to the dragons. Either she will die as a heroic sacrifice to make sure that there is a new dawn, or decide that There Is No Place For Me Here, and certainly not in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the tower of albion Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Daenerys is the prince that was promised. Promised to do what? Bring back Dragons? (job done) or to sacrifice herself to save the greater good? If you think back on Rhaegar being a sad sack because he believed he had to sacrifice everything to fulfill prophecy you see what's laid out for Daenerys. The reason everything goes wrong for her is because she's on the wrong path. To paraphrase Davos to win the throne to save the realm, or save the realm to win the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Martin's second favorite character is Arya with his first being Tyrion He's said Dany is joint second with Arya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Dany's arc is well flagged, come to Westeros, win the dance and the throne, lose Drogon and get thrown out by the people for being the mad queen, go find Jon, pledge him her allegiance, get her dragon back and go save the realm from the zombie apocalypse. Her mad Targaryenness is the central question of her arc, which will be answered when she sacrifices revenge, rule and power by kneeling to Jon and fighting for and probably dying for the realm that tossed her out on her ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 From what I can recall, there really hasn't been any hints of Dany going insane and/or losing her mind...so I would say the idea of her just magically "snapping" and going crazy in the final two book is pretty slim. GRRM is pretty good at dropping hints throughout, and I can't recall any indicating she will go crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said: From what I can recall, there really hasn't been any hints of Dany going insane and/or losing her mind...so I would say the idea of her just magically "snapping" and going crazy in the final two book is pretty slim. GRRM is pretty good at dropping hints throughout, and I can't recall any indicating she will go crazy. The only evidence for madness are her conversations with Qaithe, who no-one else can see, and her hallucinations in her last chapter. The first can be explained by the fact that Qaithe is a magician; the second by sunstroke and thirst, and the after-effects of eating poison berries. It's not impossible that Daenerys will develop mental illness, possibly triggered by her experiences in the last chapter, but there's little evidence for it so far. Daenerys is clearly very strongly touched by magic, and the supernatural, but that's not the same thing as madness in a world where magic and the supernatural are realities. One thing that needs to be considered is that with people who wield absolute power on a hereditary basis, it's often hard to distinguish madness from extreme forms of behaviour. I don't think people like Maegor, or Aegon IV were mad, but their behaviour was extreme. I think that Aerion Brightflame was on the borderline between extreme behaviour and madness, perhaps too, the daughter of Jaehaerys I who killed herself in a drunken horse race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddard Scissorhands Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 By the end a hero. She'll be tossed off the throne as the mad queen then come back and save the realm. This is a fresh possibility I've never heard before. I could enjoy a story like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Dany's madness isn't going to manifest as insanity. It's a ruthless streak, a lust for revenge, power, a turn from the politics, compromise and appeasement that failed her in the East to a linear strategy of fire and blood. A mindset that will see her destroy Aegon, a beloved King on the way to righting the realm, in a war that will tear the realm in two and leave thousands dead. That will have her sentence Jaime to death for murdering her father despite the revelation of circumstances. A mindset that will lead her to give only the dragon's mercy to her fallen enemies and refuse to play ball with the High Septon. And a mindset that will lead to those closest to her questioning if she is the right person for the crown and eventually betraying her in epic fashion. It will be labelled madness, from the outside looking in it will look like madness, like the Mad King come again as his daughter. And after the smallfolk rebel against her rule, and those closest to her, some who had previously been fiercely loyal and others who she knows had only the good of the realm in their hearts betray her and she's left without her crown and little power she'll have to ask herself the question of if they were actually right to do so, if she had left them any choice, if she had brought it all on herself, if she is mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, chrisdaw said: Dany's madness isn't going to manifest as insanity. It's a ruthless streak, a lust for revenge, power, a turn from the politics, compromise and appeasement that failed her in the East to a linear strategy of fire and blood. A mindset that will see her destroy Aegon, a beloved King on the way to righting the realm, in a war that will tear the realm in two and leave thousands dead. That will have her sentence Jaime to death for murdering her father despite the revelation of circumstances. A mindset that will lead her to give only the dragon's mercy to her fallen enemies and refuse to play ball with the High Septon. And a mindset that will lead to those closest to her questioning if she is the right person for the crown and eventually betraying her in epic fashion. It will be labelled madness, from the outside looking in it will look like madness, like the Mad King come again as his daughter. And after the smallfolk rebel against her rule, and those closest to her, some who had previously been fiercely loyal and others who she knows had only the good of the realm in their hearts betray her and she's left without her crown and little power she'll have to ask herself the question of if they were actually right to do so, if she had left them any choice, if she had brought it all on herself, if she is mad. Even if that's how it turns out, ruthlessness isn't necessarily madness. Madness was Aerys II thinking that his grandson "smelled Dornish", that a wetnurse smeared her breasts with poison to kill his child, that a tree sigil was actually laughing at him, that he could transform into a dragon if he burned Kings Landing down etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Tyranny would probably be most appropriate, but madness, Targaryen madness particularly is the label it will be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I expect that we'll be debating whether Dany is a hero or not for years after the books come out. Probably along with a lot of other characters. I suspect she'll go on to do some more heroic actions and some more villainous ones. If George has her permanently end the slave trade in Essos (which would be ridiculously unbelievable) then she'll probably get a pass on whatever she does in Westeros, regardless of who she kills or how much she messes it up. I think it will come down to whether you think her bad actions outweigh her good, or vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 10 hours ago, Fire Eater said: I think in ADoS she will straddle the line between hero and villain. She may take a turn onto the villain's side, but die a hero in the end. That's what I believe as well. She'll be a force of destruction more than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I don't understand the theory behind Dany becoming the Mad Queen bc she has simply shown no inclination toward madness. Has she lost her temper & done some arguably bad things? Yes. But that makes her human and perfect not mad. With the exception of probably Brienne and Arya, she has shown more compassion than any other POV character especially to people "below" her. As shown by her reaction to the Dothraki during the battle with the Lamb Men, her going out of her way to free slavers bay (which is a decision I don't agree with, & her decision to lock up her dragons when she thinks a child has been killed (I'm 50/50 on whether Drogon actually did that). Now in response to the OP. I think she's going to do "bad" things bc she's going to have to prove a point. It's my opinion that she's going to parallel Aegon the Conquerer. Aegon burned Harren & his sons alive and committed the Field of Fire bc he needed to prove a point. Either surrender or I'm going to burn you alive bc I have dragons and you don't. I'm not going to be diplomatic about this. But if he didn't have to he didn't. See Visenya taking over the Vale, Torrhen Stark kneeling, or even giving the Lannisters back the west even after the field of fire. Once he proved his point he assimilated to Westerosi culture & was by all accounts a "good" King. I think Dany will be similar. I think she's just going to burn Slavers Bay to the ground which is what she should've done in the first place. And I think she's going to "Harrenhal" at least one castle in Westeros. My guess is the Twins. The Freys have the curse of breaking guest right. So that would be fitting. The other options would be Highgarden, Casterly Rock, or Red Keep. But I see the Tyrells bending knee as soon as they see a dragon, no one important is at CR unless Cersei & Tommen flee, & I don't see Dany burning down the place she plans to live. Plus the Twins pisses off the least amount of people. The North & Riverlands might help and I get the feeling the Freys weren't especially liked to begin & the majority of people don't like the concept of the RW. She's also going to have to do something with Aegon. While this stuff may be villainous I don't feel like she's going to have much of a choice. Like I said she's going to have to prove a point. But once she proves it I see her being the compassionate, wants to do the right thing Dany that we've had for the majority of the books. I don't see her having a problem with the Stark kids (especially once she meets Jon & they fight the Others together [emoji6]). She's never shown a real motivation for revenge to that extent. At least not that I remember. Yeah she talks about the usurper's dogs, but that seems to be Viserys' influence. And even so the usurper & all his dogs are dead and I don't remember her contemplated the families w/ the exception of Robert's "kids" just bc they're on the throne. As long as they bend the knee I think they're fine. The only "innocent" person who may die is Jaime bc regardless of his reason he still killed her father. But maybe Tyrion will help with that issue (or make it worse). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Given that there are already a lot of people who think Dany is the greatest person in the history of fiction and another camp which considers her evil incarnate, I can't imagine any arc that would leave the final judgement unambiguous. For myself, I can't imagine I'll see her as particularly heroic by the end. She might end up worse, she might end up better, but I can't see any plausible character arc that'd leave her a hero in my eyes. She could end up a villain, especially if (like me) you view Aegon the Conqueror as "villainous". But most likely she'll continue to do some very good things and some very bad things and I will continue to dislike her and consider many of her actions evil despite having a grudging respect for some of the good she's at least attempting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy Hill Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Personally, I think what Dany will do to Westeros will be similar to what she did to Eroeh : she'll unleash horrors and atrocities on Westeros (just like she unleashed the dothraki on that lhazareen town). She'll be motivated by what she believes is her right and her desire to rescue the realm, but she'll end up causing a lot of harm. All that talk about how fire consumes makes it unlikely that a girl whose motto is "fire and blood" will be a positive force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Characters can do heroic deeds even if things they did before are seen as wrong, evil or villainous by readers. Stannis e.g. is certainly not what we might call a positive hero character, burning people right and left for the sake of some ideology, but taking his army to the wall was heroic in an epic sense. So there will be readers who see Dany (....Tyrion, Jon, Jaime, Arya, Sansa, Theon.....) as villainous, now already or when all is said and done, and yet she or any character gone bad can do the most heroic act and save mankind. Does Martin aim for a traditionally karmic outcome where every character who has committed a villainous act is doomed to get a negative ending? In this simplifying approach the bad girl or guy has to die even if they are the final hero. Only I believe Martin will be more subtle: some so called good guys will die and some so called bad ones will live, just like life. Meaning Dany, like many other characters, could be a villain and yet the hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I expect that we'll be debating whether Dany is a hero or not for years after the books come out. Probably along with a lot of other characters. I suspect she'll go on to do some more heroic actions and some more villainous ones. If George has her permanently end the slave trade in Essos (which would be ridiculously unbelievable) then she'll probably get a pass on whatever she does in Westeros, regardless of who she kills or how much she messes it up. I think it will come down to whether you think her bad actions outweigh her good, or vice versa. I think her conquering some or all of Western Essos is a near-certainty, and I doubt if it will be pretty, even if slavery is ended. I think there'll be a good deal of pillaging, burning, and (despite Dany's efforts) murder and rape. In all likelihood, thousands of people will lose their homes and livelihoods, and flee across the narrow Sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 59 minutes ago, Woman of War said: Characters can do heroic deeds even if things they did before are seen as wrong, evil or villainous by readers. Stannis e.g. is certainly not what we might call a positive hero character, burning people right and left for the sake of some ideology, but taking his army to the wall was heroic in an epic sense. So there will be readers who see Dany (....Tyrion, Jon, Jaime, Arya, Sansa, Theon.....) as villainous, now already or when all is said and done, and yet she or any character gone bad can do the most heroic act and save mankind. Does Martin aim for a traditionally karmic outcome where every character who has committed a villainous act is doomed to get a negative ending? In this simplifying approach the bad girl or guy has to die even if they are the final hero. Only I believe Martin will be more subtle: some so called good guys will die and some so called bad ones will live, just like life. Meaning Dany, like many other characters, could be a villain and yet the hero. I like the Stannis comparison and she may very well have a reputation like him. He has some merits but his harsh nature overshadows it and that is all people see. Does it make him a villain? I am not a huge fan of him but calling him a villain, that will be arbitrary. Can we call Robb Stark a villain for paying back Westerlands in kind? Of course we can but that will be arbitrary considering he did a lot of good things too. So the term villain has to be used carefully. The only people the term fits is people like Euron and Cersei. The likes of Dany, Arya and Stannis doesn't fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 9 hours ago, SeanF said: He's said Dany is joint second with Arya Source and quote please? That'd be really interesting to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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