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R+L=J v.160


SFDanny

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I wasn't sure where to put this, but I figured it as good a thread as any! And apologies if it has been discussed before. I have been musing recently on the absence of Barristan at Winterfell. King Robert, his wife and children are travelling from King's Landing to Winterfell - why is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard not present? He appears at Castle Darry with Renly..........why is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard watching over someone as relatively low down in the order of succession as him? Particularly given that Stannis doesn't seem to have Kingsguard protection. I know that Renly and Barristan could simply have decided to travel together and that Barristan wasn't Renly's assigned Kingsguard - but that raises the question again of why the main members of the royal family (those with Kingsguard protection) would leave the capital on a prolonged trip north without the Lord Commander present. 

It may be slightly crackpot, but the absence of Barristan combined with Maester Aemon being blind makes me wonder if Jon bears some sort of resemblance to an historical Targaryen - one that both of these men might have known.......specifically Aegon V himself (with whom Jon shares a number of parallels) or one of his sons. While there is a repeated assertion that Jon looks like a Stark, that is what everyone is looking for. A likeness to Ned. What is there was something subtle........like the shape of his jaw or the setting of his eyes........that made Jon resemble a great-great-uncle or great-great-grandfather? Something that only someone who knew them well would have picked up on? Barristan was awarded his knighthood by Aegon V himself, and was acquainted with the Prince of Dragonflies (who gave him the nickname Barristan the Bold) and presumably his royal brothers. Jon would be safe in the North as no Northman would have met these men, yet Barristan and Aemon would know them by sight. 

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23 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I wasn't sure where to put this, but I figured it as good a thread as any! And apologies if it has been discussed before. I have been musing recently on the absence of Barristan at Winterfell. King Robert, his wife and children are travelling from King's Landing to Winterfell - why is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard not present? He appears at Castle Darry with Renly..........why is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard watching over someone as relatively low down in the order of succession as him? Particularly given that Stannis doesn't seem to have Kingsguard protection. I know that Renly and Barristan could simply have decided to travel together and that Barristan wasn't Renly's assigned Kingsguard - but that raises the question again of why the main members of the royal family (those with Kingsguard protection) would leave the capital on a prolonged trip north without the Lord Commander present. 

It may be slightly crackpot, but the absence of Barristan combined with Maester Aemon being blind makes me wonder if Jon bears some sort of resemblance to an historical Targaryen - one that both of these men might have known.......specifically Aegon V himself (with whom Jon shares a number of parallels) or one of his sons. While there is a repeated assertion that Jon looks like a Stark, that is what everyone is looking for. A likeness to Ned. What is there was something subtle........like the shape of his jaw or the setting of his eyes........that made Jon resemble a great-great-uncle or great-great-grandfather? Something that only someone who knew them well would have picked up on? Barristan was awarded his knighthood by Aegon V himself, and was acquainted with the Prince of Dragonflies (who gave him the nickname Barristan the Bold) and presumably his royal brothers. Jon would be safe in the North as no Northman would have met these men, yet Barristan and Aemon would know them by sight. 

 

I think that is right. Everyone sees what they want to see, but if one really started to look close, the nuances would make all the difference.

See the description of the differences between Robb and Jon.

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Here’s my go at the whole “R+L=J” and the Azor Ahai theories thing.

 

 

 

 Let’s just assume Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen – why did GRRM kill Jon Snow? I think the answer is relatively simple. The book has been building up to the fateful battle between good and evil, or “Ice and Fire.” We all know that Azor Ahai, according to Melisandre, will be reborn after the long summer to defend the world from the Other and uses Azor Ahai and the prince that was promised interchangeably. Taking the theories regarding Jon’s parentage and the other contingencies from the prophecy and the books themselves, I think there are three clear-cut reasons why GRRM killed Jon Snow:

 

1.     No one has been “reborn” in the literal sense of the word following the long summer. Jon Snow since his birth has come to know himself as Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell, and not Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised. He needs to be reborn to fulfill that role, hence, his death and presumed subsequent resurrection (with Melisandre’s help).

 

2.     Jon Snow is too much like Ned in that he holds honor above all. My favorite example is when he chooses to become the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch over the Lord of Winterfell (I might add he was very torn between the two decisions). He holds his vows to the Night’s Watch as sacrosanct. His watch cannot end until his death, according to the Night’s Watch Oath. So, he must die in order to be released from those vows.

 

 

 

Not to mention, on the business/financial side of things, here we are discussing ad nauseam Jon’s true parents and why Jon is dead and all sorts of theories along those lines. Makes for a pretty good marketing ploy from GRRM if you ask me. Tension and release – he’s just building up the suspense.

 

 

 

You might ask, why kill Ned? Why not let him go to the Wall instead of being executed at King’s Landing? Well, it doesn’t make for a good story does it?

 

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4 hours ago, mark_1992 said:

3.     “The next time we see each other, we’ll talk about your mother. I promise.” – Ned to Jon. Ned is dead. The only place they can see each other again is in death where Ned will reveal to Jon that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

This from the show, not the books.

Welcome to the forums, but this is in the wrong space for this discussion, There is another area on this site for show discussions. What Ned said to Jon in the show - in this case, at least - has nothing to do with what happened between them in the books.

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11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

This from the show, not the books.

Welcome to the forums, but this is in the wrong space for this discussion, There is another area on this site for show discussions. What Ned said to Jon in the show - in this case, at least - has nothing to do with what happened between them in the books.

My bad, then scratch #3. Have not read GoT in about a year and recently re-watched the series. Memory must be foggy on that specifically.

Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that Jon's death satisfies some conditions laid out in the books that would let him become Azor Ahai/PTP. 

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The thing is I don't think  "Azor Ahai Reborn" has to be reborn. It's Azor Ahai who supposedly has been reborn in this person (or in my opinion people.) The person who is Azor Ahai Reborn shouldn't have to then die and be reborn. 

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4 hours ago, mark_1992 said:

My bad, then scratch #3. Have not read GoT in about a year and recently re-watched the series. Memory must be foggy on that specifically.

Not a problem. I was only trying to clarify the need to keep the show/book discussions separate. Again, welcome, and feel free to advance your theory for discussion.

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after five books, and despite all the speculation, r+l=j is not confirmed...grrm has had many chances to reveal the truth and he has not...im just saying if it was as straight forward as readers like to pretend it is, chances are grrm would not have prolonged the agonizing suspense so long...after all, would it not be a massive let down to find out  the big secret twist is exactly what everyone saw coming a mile away?...im thinking george is a better story teller than that...r+l=j is a classic red herring and the proof is how easily so many readers have accepted it as canon..george is exactly the kind of writer who loves to smash readers expectations...jons parentage may never get revealed because it might not be relevant...get used to that idea.

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13 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

after five books, and despite all the speculation, r+l=j is not confirmed...grrm has had many chances to reveal the truth and he has not...im just saying if it was as straight forward as readers like to pretend it is, chances are grrm would not have prolonged the agonizing suspense so long...after all, would it not be a massive let down to find out  the big secret twist is exactly what everyone saw coming a mile away?...im thinking george is a better story teller than that...r+l=j is a classic red herring and the proof is how easily so many readers have accepted it as canon..george is exactly the kind of writer who loves to smash readers expectations...jons parentage may never get revealed because it might not be relevant...get used to that idea.

That's just it, the majority of readers here and a few other places might have solved the puzzle of Jon's true parentage. But that doesn't mean the majority of all the readers everywhere. For instance, I know a bunch of people who have read the books. Some found them on their own, to others I recommended them/gave them. Not a single one picked up the clues. And when I specifically mentioned R+L=J, some had a 'the coin dropped' moment whereas others remained unconvinced. 

And all the clues are in the text. Martin doesn't cheat his readers. His twists are reveals are organic, and not surprising for the sake of being surprising. 

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james joyce once bragged that his finnegans wake was so laden with riddles and double meanings that people would ague their meanings for all time...im sure grrm has overflowed his books with numerous questions that will never get neatly solved...it is the speculation on the part of the reader which engages us after all...mysteries abound and we we can not expect to get answers to them all...jons parents might not matter anymore

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Just now, house of dayne said:

james joyce once bragged that his finnegans wake was so laden with riddles and double meanings that people would ague their meanings for all time...im sure grrm has overflowed his books with numerous questions that will never get neatly solved...it is the speculation on the part of the reader which engages us after all...mysterioes abound and we we can not expect to get answers to them all...jons parents might not matter anymore

I disagree. Well, I agree that there are mysteries that will never be solved, questions we'll never get a proper answer for. BUT... Jon's parentage is most definitely not one of those.

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I'm beginning to question whether you're just trolling... I don't mean it as an insult or anything. It's just that I've seen it before, so apologies if not the case. I'll assume you're not. :)

The thing with Jon being dead and gone for good is that we go back to one basic point: his story is very obviously not over. And as I've said before, Martin doesn't cheat his readers. Not only that, but his a brilliant storyteller, he's not going to off Jon now (assassination attempt ADwD). No way, no how. 

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it is not beyond the pale to suggest that grrm will never overtly reveal jons parentage, and im fine with that..we obsess about it as readers but in universe it seems very unimportant..jon has magic from his northern blood but literally nothing has ever been shown to suggest he has any targaryen traits at all...his story arc does not need him to become a targaryen as it is his stark blood that seems most important in the north...perhaps rhaegar is his father, perhaps not..thus far in the books no one seems to care at all..if george leaves the question un answered he will provoke the readers into their own conclusions...try reading any of the heresy essays and you will soon see that george left himself many possibilities ...truth is a very elusive thing when everything is revealed to us by unreliable narrators with their own biases..instead of pinning it down to one truth, perhaps george instead wove multiple possibilities with the idea that the reader was to decide...

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Jon's parentage will not be outright revealed to the readers until it is outright revealed in the story. It hasn't come up yet in the story because the story hasn't gotten to the point where it's necessary for it to be revealed.

Without the long wait on the series, and the internet, very few people would know about R+L=J. You do however, have a point that it remains a theory and could be wrong. The only given in this is that Ned thought R+L=J (nothing else satisfactorily explains his actions). Ned could have been wrong. 

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