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R+L=J v.160


SFDanny

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The more I think about this theory, the less sense it makes. Lets put aside what Rhaegar says to Jaime, that he meant to do something sooner but its better not to dwell on roads not taken, lets put that aside for a second. If Rhaegar was actively conspiring to depose his father, how did Varys, with all his spies, never acquire any proof? Why doesn't Rhaegar side with the rebels and call on his supporters throughout the areas of his base of power to do the same? Why does Rhaegar leave Elia and his children in King's Landing? Surely if Rhaegar was acting out some well thought out conspiracy, he wouldn't leave his family in the clutches of the insane father he meant to depose? Why not ship Elia and his children off to Dorne, or at least to Dragonstone, before the abduction? If she was to frail to travel, that just begs more questions, why would he jeopardize her and his children's safety for the sake of his poorly thought out conspiracy to depose his father? How on earth could he have thought the Lyanna's abduction would play out in his political favor, if he was conspiring to depose his father? Nothing about this makes any sense.

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54 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I'd say that there is no risk without gain, and getting your grandchildren into the royal succession is a pretty big deal.

Into the royal succession, but not as the heir. That position still belonged to Aegon, as far as we know.

 

54 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I'm sorry, I still don't understand why Robert whould be angry with Rickard. It is not Rickard's fault that Rhaegar made off with Lyanna, Rhaegar is the sole culprit to blame and Rickard put up an appropriately indignant act.

If Rickard and Rhaegar had secretly agreed on such a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna (as I understand is what you are proposing), Rickard would, most lileky, not be seen as tryign to oppose the marriage - petition to the King, Faith, etc. Not opposing such a marriage, I'd think, would not fall in well with Robert.

And all it would take is some rumor that Rickard had played a role (no matter how small), or had known before, and the whole thing could escalate so quickly...

 

54 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Also, not sure why it should affect Brandon and Cat - why should Hoster Tully be concerned with Robert losing his betrothed? Not to mention that, had Brandon not left for KL, he would have been married by the time Hoster learns about the abduction.

Would he? Brandon learned about Lyanna whilst on his way to Riverrun.. Someone found him during his journey, to tell him the news. Who says that the Great Lords did not learn around the same time, or even before, since ravens fly to castles, not to people traveling on the road :) 

Brandon died in KL a few short days before he had been to marry Catelyn. In between Brandon learning of Lyanna and him dying, Brandon travelled from some unknown location between Winterfell and Riverrun to KL, after which Rickard was summoned, and travelled a similar journey to KL, where he died. Even if we assume that Rickard and Brandon died within a (few) day(s) of Rickard's arrival in KL, it is clear that multiple weeks at the very least would have passed between Brandon learning about Lyanna and his death, several days before his wedding day. Why assume that Hoster would not have heard by then? And thus, why assume that the marriage would continue (a happy occasion), if Rickard, by rights, should be concerned about his daughter and doing everything he can to get her back?

 

54 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Here is where Elia plays a crucial role. If she is in on the plan, then she can mollify her brothers. Besides, as long as Elia remains Rhaegar's wife and Aegon his heir, Dorne doesn't lose a thing.

Yes, as long as Aegon remains heir. But there's always the danger... If Rhaegar choses Lyanna personally, which you suggest, than this is a show of him favoring her over Elia (which he also showed at Harrenhal). Thus, any children (any sons) Lyanna has by Rhaegar, would represent a danger to Aegon and his claim.

So Dorne, besides being insulted and humiliated, would have to face a threat as long as Lyanna's descendants by Rhaegar live.

 

54 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Certainly, but if Rhaegar has the support of Dorne, Starks, Tullys and Arryns (and given Robert's relationship with Ned and Jon Arryn, perhaps even the whole STAB), then Rhaegar has a power base for a takeover.

But Robert would have little to no reason to support him, and Dorne would have every reason of fearing their position and Aegon's inheritance under Rhaegar.

I have to admit that I mostly missed the STAB discussion, so I'm not entirey sure about the scenario it represents. But I think that the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, (especially the way how they were killed by Aerys), and the call for the heads of Robert and Eddard, who had been completely innocent, was quite an important factor in why Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully rebelled. Without those deaths and the call for those heads, I don't think it is as certain that Hoster and Jon would join a rebellion against Aerys..

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7 minutes ago, John Courage said:

The more I think about this theory, the less sense it makes. Lets put aside what Rhaegar says to Jaime, that he meant to do something sooner but its better not to dwell on roads not taken, lets put that aside for a second. If Rhaegar was actively conspiring to depose his father, how did Varys, with all his spies, never acquire any proof? Why doesn't Rhaegar side with the rebels and call on his supporters throughout the areas of his base of power to do the same? Why does Rhaegar leave Elia and his children in King's Landing? Surely if Rhaegar was acting out some well thought out conspiracy, he wouldn't leave his family in the clutches of the insane father he meant to depose? Why not ship Elia and his children off to Dorne, or at least to Dragonstone, before the abduction? If she was to frail to travel, that just begs more questions, why would he jeopardize her and his children's safety for the sake of his poorly thought out conspiracy to depose his father? How on earth could he have thought the Lyanna's abduction would play out in his political favor, if he was conspiring to depose his father? Nothing about this makes any sense.

When Rhaegar went onto his journey (which ended with Lyanna's disappearance), he actually left Elia and their children on Dragonstone. Aerys must have summoned them at a later point to KL. 

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6 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Brandon travelled from some unknown location between Winterfell and Riverrun to KL

I believe that you have forgotten that Brandon had been at Riverrun to Duel Littlefinger at least a fortnight previously.  We don't know what errand Brandon excused himself from Catelyn to do, but afterwards he would return to Riverrun for the wedding.  We don't know if Brandon had travelled to some other location, and Winterfell seems least likely since he had initially left from there for the duel; or at least we must presume so. 

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17 minutes ago, John Courage said:

The more I think about this theory, the less sense it makes.

Yes, that is my take on it as well.  For Rhaegar to have a political motive there is nothing to be gained, and everything to lose. 

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Let's try to simplify...

40 minutes ago, John Courage said:

What I think is happening is you're falling into the trap Aerys councilors created to keep Aerys suspicious of Rhaegar. They would continually whisper in his ear that Rhaegar was a threat, and conspiring to overthrow him, because they were afraid of what might happen if Rhaegar should ascend the throne and they were to lose their influence over the King and Kingdom. Aerys was a paranoid, delusional man, and his councilors played off that fear.

Except Rhaegar confirms the fact that he had in fact planned to call a council, thus telling us that Varys (or other Aerys councilors) were actually correct...

40 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Varys whispering in King Aerys ear...yet even still, Rhaegar planning a secret meeting to discuss what might be done, a meeting that never takes place, is a little different from Rhaegar actively conspiring to depose his father.

How is planning a council "a little different" from actively conspiring to depose his father? It is a means to an end. We have the proof, from his very own mouth, that he did in fact, at some point, seek to use such a means. What more do you need exactly, a written confession?
 

Let's be clear: indeed there's no textual evidence that Lyanna's abduction was politically motivated. It's just a logical conclusion because we know that Rhaegar was generally good at politics, and we know that he did, in fact, want to depose his father. And since abducting Lyanna Stark without a plan to deal with the consequences would be insanely stupid from a political perspective, therefore Rhaegar must have had such a plan, and this plan might even have lead to his father's removal.

40 minutes ago, John Courage said:

His marriage wasn't a political move by Rhaegar, it was a political move by Aerys to insult Tywin, who wanted Rhaegar to marry Cersei. Rhaegar only saw Elia as the mother of the PTWP because, well, as his wife she would have his children.

Precisely. Which shows that when Rhaegar married Elia (just a few years before the abduction), he saw no need to actively seek to accomplish the prophecy. He did not, in fact,  "pursue the prophecy his entire life."

40 minutes ago, John Courage said:

I believe he was in love with her, and thought she was necessary for the fulfillment of a prophecy he had been pursuing, literally, his entire life. I believe Rhaegar was smart enough to know that some things were more important than the potential political fallout of his actions.

"Smart" is not the word I would use... MindBomb put it well enough:

Quote

A romantic lens makes him look like selfish idiot--selfish because he turns his back on Elia and his young family and stupid because it upsets the entire kingdom. A prophecy lens makes him look like a dogmatic idiot--following the prophecy to not only his doom, but to the death of thousands without any guarantee he was right.

 

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51 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

An existing Stark daughter is a way safer seal than one who is yet to be conceived. The seal is, so to say, immediate.

Safer for the Starks, yes. Rhaegar for his part has nothing to lose here as if he wouldn't be responsible for the break of the deal so I don't get why Rhaegar could disagree to this especially as it prevents him to have to shame his current wife

Rickard is making a bet but on one hand he kept his chance to have his grandchildren ruling two of the 7 realm + the chance to have his granddaughter queen of the 7K while on the other hand he is putting his family as the protagonsts of Rhaegar's plot which isn't even sure to succeed and his grandson isn't even supposed to inherit of anything.

53 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I seem to be a weei bit confused over this.

I must have been tired when I wrote it... I meant if Brandon happens to not have a daughter like you previously supposed, the betrothal can be made between his son and Rhaenys or Dany (if she lived in that hypothetical scenario).

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

They actually didn't consider polygamy a common more in the first place, and they never stopped any mores because they won - they kept their incest and disarmed the Faith.And Rhaenyra and Daemon did think that it was an option.

They never practiced polygamy ever again. Even the most despiscable kings such as Aegon IV and Aerys II didn't dare touch it.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Not what happened:

 Hoping that Naerys would die and he could make his daughter a queen, Lord Bracken spoke openly of wedding Barba to Aegon. When Naerys eventually recovered, Prince Daeron and Prince Aemon forced Aegon to send the Brackens away from court.

How is it different ?

"With Baelor's death in 171 and Viserys II's ascension to the throne, the princesses were once again permitted male company. Aegon (now Prince of Dragonstone and heir apparent) became entranced with sixteenyear-old Barba. On his own ascent in 172, he named her father as his Hand and openly took her for his mistress. She bore him a bastard only a fortnight before another set of twins—a stillborn boy and a girl, Daenerys, who survived—were delivered by Queen Naerys. With the queen lingering near death, the Hand—Barba's father—talked openly of wedding his daughter to the King. After the queen's recovery, the scandal proved Barba's undoing, as young Prince Daeron and his uncle, the Dragonknight, forced Aegon to send her and the bastard away. "

The queen was about to die and everyone knew the King didn't love her, at the time there was no particular offense towards her. With the hindsight, I don't even need to specify that the idea of polygamous marriage would make a scandale and would be perceived as outrageously disgraceful towards the queen, despite the fact she is a Targaryen.

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13 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

They never practiced polygamy ever again. Even the most despiscable kings such as Aegon IV and Aerys II didn't dare touch it.

June 06, 2001

Targaryen Polygamy

 

Quote

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be).

The way that GRRM answers gives me the impression that he is hiding a polygamous Targaryen marriage, for the time being.  ;)

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20 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

June 06, 2001

Targaryen Polygamy

 

The way that GRRM answers gives me the impression that he is hiding a polygamous Targaryen marriage, for the time being.  ;)

If you're referring to R+L, you must know that I believe they were married or at least that I'm not contesting the authenticity of a second marriage.

 

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IMO, Rickard's "southron ambitions" were aimed at putting his descendants in positions to eventually sit the Iron Throne. Children of Robert and Lyanna would have been as good a bet as any to be in the mix to marry with the royal family. And children of Brandon and Catelyn wouldn't have been in terrible shape either. I am not sold on the theory yet, but in general I think there is a basis to think Rickard might be receptive to an offer which might get his descendants in with the royal family and closer to the Iron Throne sooner.

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1 hour ago, Rippounet said:
2 hours ago, John Courage said:

What I think is happening is you're falling into the trap Aerys councilors created to keep Aerys suspicious of Rhaegar. They would continually whisper in his ear that Rhaegar was a threat, and conspiring to overthrow him, because they were afraid of what might happen if Rhaegar should ascend the throne and they were to lose their influence over the King and Kingdom. Aerys was a paranoid, delusional man, and his councilors played off that fear.

Except Rhaegar confirms the fact that he had in fact planned to call a council, thus telling us that Varys (or other Aerys councilors) were actually correct...

Aerys was suspicious of Rhaegar and everyone else long before the tourney at HH, it was his preexisting paranoia that his councilors played into. There is no evidence that Rhaegar was plotting to depose his father before the tourney at HH. Rhaegar's decision to hold a secret meeting at the tourney of HH is likely the only move he ever made, and it never even took place.

 

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:
2 hours ago, John Courage said:

Varys whispering in King Aerys ear...yet even still, Rhaegar planning a secret meeting to discuss what might be done, a meeting that never takes place, is a little different from Rhaegar actively conspiring to depose his father.

How is planning a council "a little different" from actively conspiring to depose his father? It is a means to an end. We have the proof, from his very own mouth, that he did in fact, at some point, seek to use such a means. What more do you need exactly, a written confession?

Because the meeting was to determine what should be done. It wasn't a meeting specifically to depose Aerys. And it never happened, and Rhaegar tells Jaime that he meant to do something sooner (ie sooner than the day he was leaving King's Landing to meet Robert in battle) but it was better not to dwell on roads not taken. He never went down the path of actually planning or conspiring to remove his father from the throne.

 

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:
2 hours ago, John Courage said:

His marriage wasn't a political move by Rhaegar, it was a political move by Aerys to insult Tywin, who wanted Rhaegar to marry Cersei. Rhaegar only saw Elia as the mother of the PTWP because, well, as his wife she would have his children.

Precisely. Which shows that when Rhaegar married Elia (just a few years before the abduction), he saw no need to actively seek to accomplish the prophecy. He did not, in fact,  "pursue the prophecy his entire life."

Yes he did. We know he was a bookish boy who only decided to become a warrior after reading something in a scroll that made him decide he needed to become a warrior. We later learn that he communicated with his Uncle Aemon via Raven about Aegon, when he became convinced that it was his children who would fulfill the prophecy and not him. Then we have the vision from Dany where he is holding Aegon and tells Elia that Aegon's is the song of Ice and Fire, but then looks up and says there are three heads of the dragon, therefore there must be one more. And we know that the maesters told Rhaegar after Elia gave birth to Aegon that she would bear no more children, leaving the prophecy unfulfilled. So we have him pursuing the TPTWP prophecy from the time he was a bookish child, to the time he is holding Aegon in his arms, up to the point that he abducts Lyanna and leaves her pregnant with his child. Sorry, but that's his entire life.

 

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:
2 hours ago, John Courage said:

I believe he was in love with her, and thought she was necessary for the fulfillment of a prophecy he had been pursuing, literally, his entire life. I believe Rhaegar was smart enough to know that some things were more important than the potential political fallout of his actions.

"Smart" is not the word I would use

Yet you think he was more intelligent for creating some convoluted conspiracy, where he was working with STAB behind the scenes to depose his father, abducts Lyanna (again alienating both Crown and STAB sort of like he did when he crowned her QoLaB), yet then decides at the last minute, no, he is actually going to fight STAB instead of continuing to conspire with them? That makes more sense to you than all the romantic and prophetic contextual support for the abduction that we have throughout the story? Ok. 

 

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Regarding polygamy, it is my opinion that the lack of polygamy after Maegor shouldn't be taken to mean much of anything, except that most kings wouldn't have seen any benefit to it. It wasn't common when Aegon did it, and it didn't suddenly become common when Maegor did it. I see no indication that any Targaryen king after Maegor actually wanted multiple wives at one time. The only people I can think of who wanted to take another wife while they were already married or betrothed were Prince Daemon (brother of Viserys I) and Prince Daemon Blackfyre. Both could be argued to have been denied for reasons which had nothing to do with anything to do with an issue with polygamy. The brother of Viserys was childless and wanted to marry the heir to the Iron Throne. Daemon Blackfyre wanted to marry the only legitimate daughter of Aegon IV, who was a key piece in Daeron II's plans for Dorne. Just because Aegon had a ton of mistresses doesn't mean he wanted multiple wives. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but I don't think we have any indication he actually did. I think things like refraining from polygamy and remarrying after your first wife died were probably no-brainers after what happened between the descendants of Rhaenys and Visenya and the Dance.

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

When Rhaegar went onto his journey (which ended with Lyanna's disappearance), he actually left Elia and their children on Dragonstone. Aerys must have summoned them at a later point to KL. 

You're absolutely right. Aerys summoned her to KL after the start of the rebellion to either keep Rhaegar or Dorne in check. But still, that doesn't make it any easier to accept that Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna was politically motivated. If Rhaegar was actively conspiring with STAB to depose his father, why would he throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing by abducting Lyanna? Why not just let Robert have her? I can not see any scenario where Rhaegar thought abducting Lyanna would be politically beneficial to the strengthening or success of STAB.

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27 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Daemon Blackfyre wanted to marry the only legitimate daughter of Aegon IV, who was a key piece in Daeron II's plans for Dorne. 

But it is interesting that the worldbook says Daeron refused to permit him more than one wife, rather than something like "refused to grant him Daenery's hand." It strongly implies a Targaryen prince can't just take a second wife without the king's permission. Something also suggested by the other Daemon asking Viserys to dissolve his marriage so that he could marry Rhaenyra. Regardless of whether Viserys was going to let him marry his daughter, Daemon clearly saw his existing marriage as an obstacle that he would need the king's help eliminating.

27 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Just because Aegon had a ton of mistresses doesn't mean he wanted multiple wives. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but I don't think we have any indication he actually did

I think the mock wedding with Merry Meg suggests that he did, at least in his youth with her. It's possible that by the time he was king he didn't see the point anymore. 

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11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

But it is interesting that the worldbook says Daeron refused to permit him more than one wife, rather than something like "refused to grant him Daenery's hand." It strongly implies a Targaryen prince can't just take a second wife without the king's permission.

I think the mock wedding with Merry Meg suggests that he did, at least in his youth with her. It's possible that by the time he was king he didn't see the point anymore. 

So I feel like we have had a variation on this conversation so many times that I just keep repeating myself -- but for the sake of others who have not seen out prior exchanges, here it goes:

It is generally understood that members of the royal family need permission for any marriage at all. Those who have married someone without permission have created problems. Duncan had to abdicate. Jaehaerys and Shaera got away with it -- but it is clear that did not follow the rules and that they were not supposed to get married to each other. I believe ASOIAF mentions other situations where permission to marry was discussed that involved a first marriage. So the language does not suggest that a second marriage would require permission due to it being a second marriage -- but rather because all royal marriage are supposed to be subject to approval from the King. But we know that royals can marry without permission -- they just risk punishment from the King for having done so.

As to the mock wedding -- I do not believe for one moment that Aegon IV wanted to be married to Meg. He wanted Meg to placate her because it was to his advantage to do so. And the mock wedding was intended to accomplish that goal. But an indication of a desire to marry her for real?? -- very unlikely.

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19 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Aerys was suspicious of Rhaegar and everyone else long before the tourney at HH, it was his preexisting paranoia that his councilors played into. There is no evidence that Rhaegar was plotting to depose his father before the tourney at HH. Rhaegar's decision to hold a secret meeting at the tourney of HH is likely the only move he ever made, and it never even took place.

None of these affirmations matter. What matters is that Rhaegar himself confirmed that he did want to depose his father.
Downplaying the fact won't magically change it.

19 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Because the meeting was to determine what should be done. It wasn't a meeting specifically to depose Aerys.

Of course it was. What else could it be?

Oh, sure, perhaps there wasn't the need to literaly depose Aerys, perhaps taking away most of his power would have been enough. The end result was always the same however: the real power would have gone to Rhaegar.

19 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Yes he did. We know he was a bookish boy who only decided to become a warrior after reading something in a scroll that made him decide he needed to become a warrior. We later learn that he communicated with his Uncle Aemon via Raven about Aegon, when he became convinced that it was his children who would fulfill the prophecy and not him. Then we have the vision from Dany where he is holding Aegon and tells Elia that Aegon's is the song of Ice and Fire, but then looks up and says there are three heads of the dragon, therefore there must be one more. And we know that the maesters told Rhaegar after Elia gave birth to Aegon that she would bear no more children, leaving the prophecy unfulfilled. So we have him pursuing the TPTWP prophecy from the time he was a bookish child, to the time he is holding Aegon in his arms, up to the point that he abducts Lyanna and leaves her pregnant with his child. Sorry, but that's his entire life.

Except you're making several leaps, both logical and interpretative....
Fact 1): as a child, Rhaegar decided to become a warrior, most likely because of a prophecy he read (and because he thought he was the PtwP).
Fact 2): he remained interested in prophecy, communicated with Aemon about it, and eventually thought Aegon could be the PtwP.

The problem is that those facts are not enough to say for certain that as an adult, Rhaegar did anything at all for the sake of prophecy. In fact, the only thing we can say for certain is that he got the prophecy completely wrong. He was willing to believe that Elia Martell (of all people) could be the mother of the PtwP, which from our perspective (as readers) makes absolutely no sense (A Martell, "ice" ?). If anything, this means that he was far more accepting of the political necessities of his status than anything else...
Saying that Rhaegar would do anything at all to accomplish the prophecy is already a leap. Saying that he would abduct someone as politically important as Lyanna Stark on the chance that she could give him a "head of the dragon" is a giant leap.

And this is all assuming that the "There must be one more" line was actually said by Rhaegar for himself and was not meant for Dany...

19 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Yet you think he was more intelligent for creating some convoluted conspiracy, where he was working with STAB behind the scenes to depose his father, abducts Lyanna (again alienating both Crown and STAB sort of like he did when he crowned her QoLaB), leaving Elia and his children with the man he means to depose, yet then decides at the last minute, no, he is actually going to fight STAB instead of continuing to conspire with them? That makes more sense to you than all the romantic and prophetic contextual support for the abduction that we have throughout the story? Ok. 

Any plans that Rhaegar might have made with the willing or unwilling participation of STAB ended when Rickard was killed by Aerys. There was nothing "last minute" about it. Aerys simply put an end to any possible scheme when he killed RIckard Stark.
And yes, this makes far more sense to me than a politically shrewd prince suddenly forgetting about politics when making the most important political decision of his entire life...

19 minutes ago, John Courage said:

If Rhaegar was actively conspiring with STAB to depose his father, why would he throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing by abducting Lyanna?

Ah, but Rhaegar abducting Lyanna did not "throw a monkey wrench" in any plan... What went awry was Brandon Stark rushing to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar, after obviously having received incomplete -or false- information. And then, after Brandon being detained by Aerys, both Rickard Stark and his heir being killed by Aerys, making all negotiation with House Stark now impossible...

In fact, Aerys's actions are so extreme that they suggest that he did believe the Starks were scheming against hm...

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20 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So I feel like we have had a variation on this conversation so many times that I just keep repeating myself -- but for the sake of others who have not seen out prior exchanges, here it goes:

It is generally understood that members of the royal family need permission for any marriage at all. Those who have married someone without permission have created problems. Duncan had to abdicate. Jaehaerys and Shaera got away with it -- but it is clear that did not follow the rules and that they were not supposed to get married to each other. I believe ASOIAF mentions other situations where permission to marry was discussed that involved a first marriage. So the language does not suggest that a second marriage would require permission due to it being a second marriage -- but rather because all royal marriage are supposed to be subject to approval from the King. But we know that royals can marry without permission -- they just risk punishment from the King for having done so.

I disagree, but I guess you already knew that. :) Yes people generally are expected to get permission to marry, but plenty of people marry without permission. The wording of that passage specifically says Daeron denied Daemon permission to take a second wife. There's no reason to word it that way if polygamy was not one of the sticking points.

With the Daemon/Rhaenyra thing it's absolutely clear that one or both of them already being wed was what was preventing them from marrying, not permission. 

20 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

As to the mock wedding -- I do not believe for one moment that Aegon IV wanted to be married to Meg. He wanted Meg to placate her because it was to his advantage to do so. And the mock wedding was intended to accomplish that goal. But an indication of a desire to marry her for real?? -- very unlikely.

We don't have enough information to know for sure. Personally I don't see Aegon IV, even young Aegon IV, going out of his way to appease this woman he took by force from her original husband. I think it's far more likely he wanted to be "above the rules" and follow the examples of Aegon and Maegor and take another bride. Lord Varys has even suggested that that it might have been a real septon who wed them, and it was covered up. I'm not sure that's true but I think that's more likely than Aegon acquiescing to the wishes of his commoner mistress. Look how he treated the other early mistresses. 

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2 hours ago, MtnLion said:

I believe that you have forgotten that Brandon had been at Riverrun to Duel Littlefinger at least a fortnight previously.  We don't know what errand Brandon excused himself from Catelyn to do, but afterwards he would return to Riverrun for the wedding.  We don't know if Brandon had travelled to some other location, and Winterfell seems least likely since he had initially left from there for the duel; or at least we must presume so. 

I have certainly not forgotten Brandon's duel with LF.

We know that Brandon had met up with Rickard and the wedding party coming down from the north, and they had been traveling to Riverrun when he learned about Lyanna. Meeting up with the wedding party coming down from the north on their way to Riverrun when he learns about Lyanna would place him somewhere between Riverrun and Winterfell (from where Rickard would have left).

So, I'm not saying that Brandon travelled all the way to Winterfell. Just that he had been somewhere on the road of the route leading from Winterfell to Riverrun when the news of Lyanna reached him.

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16 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Except you're making several leaps, both logical and interpretative....

Hmmm, where does this fit?

17 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

None of these affirmations matter. What matters is that Rhaegar himself confirmed that he did want to depose his father.

I don't recall Rhaegar ever confirming that he wanted to depose his father.  He said something about changes, and roads not taken. 

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20 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

In fact, Aerys's actions are so extreme that they suggest that he did believe the Starks were scheming against hm...

Or, maybe, just maybe, he believed that Brandon Stark was committing treason by seeking to harm Rhaegar? 

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