R+L=J v.160

[MtnLion]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 10:41 AM, nanother said:

Hmmm, in any case, the agreement was solid enough and public enough that Jaime knew about it. It might be that Baelish was too young at the time of the betrothal to care (Cat was 12, Lysa younger and Baelish even younger IIRC, so he'd have been 10-11 at most?), and it was the announcement of the wedding itself that set him off ... their ages in the passage you're probably referring to suggest that, as it seems unlikely that they'd have waited till nearly the wedding itself with announcing the betrothal:  When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen.

I keep coming up with this definition for betrothal:

1. a mutual promise or contract for a future marriage
2. the act of promising to marry someone
3. an agreement that two people will be married in the future

So I read:  announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark as being a formal announcement of the betrothal.  Are you saying that I am incorrect?  The wedding won't happen without the approval of the king, either.  It seems to me that the announcement was made after receiving the king's approval. 

I kind of couple this with how Brandon rebelled, from Barbrey's point of view, when his engagement became known and he had to break off their relations.  A couple that are betrothed by their parents could be completely oblivious to that fact until the parents told them about it.  In hindsight they can know that their future had been arranged for them when they were quite young. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 3-5-2016 at 7:41 PM, nanother said:

Hmmm, in any case, the agreement was solid enough and public enough that Jaime knew about it. It might be that Baelish was too young at the time of the betrothal to care (Cat was 12, Lysa younger and Baelish even younger IIRC, so he'd have been 10-11 at most?), and it was the announcement of the wedding itself that set him off ... their ages in the passage you're probably referring to suggest that, as it seems unlikely that they'd have waited till nearly the wedding itself with announcing the betrothal:  When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen.

If it helps, the app states that it was the announcement of the date of the wedding which made Petyr challenge for Catelyn's hand.

 

At the age of twelve, Catelyn in betrothed to the heir to Winterfell, Brandon Stark. When the date of their wedding is announced some years afterward, Petyr - who has fallen in love with Catelyn - challenges Brandon for her hand and is grievously wounded. 

 

As to the ages, we know that Sansa and Arya are in between 2 and 2,5 years apart in age. They describe it as two years on multiple occasions, but we know that Sansa was born in late 286 AC, wereas Arya was born in early 289 AC. So they differ two years and a little more.

Catelyn recalls an afternoon she spend with Lysa and Petyr at a certain point, where Catelyn had been as old as Sansa, and Lysa younger than Arya, showing that the two sisters are further apart in age than Sansa and Arya. Considering Catelyn and Lysa are also described as being two years apart in age, that would most likely place them closely to the 2,5 year mark. Petyr, according to Catelyn, was "younger still".

[Chris5083]

1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

It is at least nine months, and likely a few months more.  In between Elia becomes pregnant and gives birth to Aegon, on Dragonstone.  The maesters tell her and Rhaegar that any further pregnancies would likely result in her death.  Rhaegar says, "There must be one more". 

It appears (not confirmed) that Lyanna, Brandon, Ned, Benjen, and Rickard wintered at Winterfell together, when the small window of false spring expired after the tourney.  Could Lyanna have been pregnant or just have given birth the day that her betrothal to Robert is announced (at Winterfell) and she voices her reticence to Ned?  NO.

NO.

NO.

Rhaegar and Lyanna were both missing for the "about" a year of Robert's Rebellion.  We need to fit Aegon, Rhaenys, Jaime's ages tot he timeline.  Jaime is fifteen at Harrenhal, the youngest ever to swear the Kingsguard oath.  He is seventeen when he slays King Aerys.  Rhaenys was born during the first year of Rhaegar's and Elia's marriage, and her birth resulted in Elia being bedridden for "half a year".  After she recovers from being bedridden she attends Harrenhal.  Near the end of the winter that follows the false spring she gives birth to Aegon on Dragonstone, but early enough that the worst of the winter has not frozen the Black Water solid and Aerys orders fires lit on the walls of the city.  Rhaegar was not to be found when the fires were lit, which is certainly before Catelyn's betrothal is announced in Riverrun and Littlefinger challenges.  Brandon responds to the challenge as soon as he can travel, presumably after the worst of the winter has passed, including the freezing of the Black Water.  Lyanna does not appear to have disappeared before Brandon's duel.  He had told Catelyn that he had a short errand to attend to, and that they would wed when he returned. 

Rhaenys was "two, maybe three" when she was killed (Tywinn is not sure if her birthday had passed, yet, when she was killed).  Aegon is a "babe at the breast when he is killed, about a year old, plus or minus a month or two". 

My calculations have always come to 21 months between the crowning at Harrenhal and the Sack of King's Landing, with a possible deviation of three months. 

Deff good info! Thank you for your reply! I think the theory is loosely based with the few confirmed events regarding Lyanna's & Rhaegar's affair. TBH, i don't believe that my theory is correct; but it makes you wonder why GRRM has given us such little info- I mean with the thousands of theories already expressed, i wonder if he might just switch things up a bit to either *throw readers off, or *to maybe differentiate more so from the show? Don't get me wrong, if i tried to wonder what GRRM was planning, i would be stuck here for ages trying to figure it out.

But im curious, wasn't Lyanna kidnapped while in Kings Landing? Its been so long since ive read the series, so forgive me... Was Elia in Dragonstone or Kings Landing when the "abduction" occurred? Wasnt she kept in the red keep by the mad king to ensure loyalty from dorne? 

Maybe Rhaegar had another prophecy that showed he indeed needed three children of fire and ice- which obv doesnt include his children with Elia...

If your calculations are correct, 21 months is still enough time to have conceived twice. How much time was between the sack and the ToJ? I know it wasnt that long...

Excuse the spelling & grammar- I'm on a phone- so not easy.

The main reason why i'm even still trying to play devils advocate is because the majority of info that we are given are POV. Maybe the info the charecters where given growing about the whole occurance was manipulated?

Thanks again for participating in this- New to participating in forums- so i appreciate your input! 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

6 minutes ago, Chris5083 said:

Deff good info! Thank you for your reply! I think the theory is loosely based with the few confirmed events regarding Lyanna's & Rhaegar's affair. TBH, i don't believe that my theory is correct; but it makes you wonder why GRRM has given us such little info- I mean with the thousands of theories already expressed, i wonder if he might just switch things up a bit to either *throw readers off, or *to maybe differentiate more so from the show? Don't get me wrong, if i tried to wonder what GRRM was planning, i would be stuck here for ages trying to figure it out.

But im curious, wasn't Lyanna kidnapped while in Kings Landing? Its been so long since ive read the series, so forgive me... Was Elia in Dragonstone or Kings Landing when the "abduction" occurred?

Maybe Rhaegar had another prophecy that showed he indeed needed three children of fire and ice- which obv doesnt include his children with Elia...

Excuse the spelling & grammar- I'm on a phone- so not easy.

Lyanna came face to face with Rhaegar "ten leagues" from Harrenhal. When Rhaegar left Dragonstone, Elia stayed there. There currently is nothing suggesting that she had gone to KL by the time Rhaegar disappeared.

Nor do we know how much time passed between Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone, and him disappearing with Lyanna.

1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

It is at least nine months, and likely a few months more.  In between Elia becomes pregnant and gives birth to Aegon, on Dragonstone.  The maesters tell her and Rhaegar that any further pregnancies would likely result in her death.  Rhaegar says, "There must be one more".

While I would estimate a similar period of time having passed, I'd say that Elia was already pregnant at Harrenhal. We know that Aegon had been born by early 282 AC, when Rhaegar left Dragonstone, and with two pregnancies and half a year bedrest within slightly more than two years, that would place Elia becoming pregnant with Aegon somewhere in the fourth or fifth month of 281 AC. Considering that the Tourney at Harrenhal took place during the two months of false spring, and considering the facts that the false spring lasted two months, and winter returned "with a vengeance" towards the end of the year, that does appear to place the tourney within the second half of 281 AC. After Elia had become pregnant with Aegon.

[MtnLion]

8 minutes ago, Chris5083 said:

But im curious, wasn't Lyanna kidnapped while in Kings Landing? Its been so long since ive read the series, so forgive me... Was Elia in Dragonstone or Kings Landing when the "abduction" occurred?

Maybe Rhaegar had another prophecy that showed he indeed needed three children of fire and ice- which obv doesnt include his children with Elia...

From the World of Ice and Fire Lyanna was abducted near Harrenhal.  Try to imagine the weather.  Winter had lifted for about two months, the false spring.  Then winter returned with full force.  We know that near the end of the year the Black Water froze solid, and Aerys commanded fires be lit throughout King's Landing, in an attempt to drive the cold away.  If it is that cold in King's Landing, how cold would it be in the North?  In the North they have summer snows.  It is simple logic that the Starks, including Lyanna, wintered at Winterfell.  Rhaegar was nowhere, including Dragonstone where Elia was with Aegon,  to be found when the fires were lit in King's Landing.  (The vision might be incorrect, but we can't assume that.)  Rhaegar says, "The dragon has three heads, there must be one more."  He is not thinking about ice and fire, though it is in his song for Aegon. 

[Chris5083]

6 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

From the World of Ice and Fire Lyanna was abducted near Harrenhal.  Try to imagine the weather.  Winter had lifted for about two months, the false spring.  Then winter returned with full force.  We know that near the end of the year the Black Water froze solid, and Aerys commanded fires be lit throughout King's Landing, in an attempt to drive the cold away.  If it is that cold in King's Landing, how cold would it be in the North?  In the North they have summer snows.  It is simple logic that the Starks, including Lyanna, wintered at Winterfell.  Rhaegar was nowhere, including Dragonstone where Elia was with Aegon,  to be found when the fires were lit in King's Landing.  (The vision might be incorrect, but we can't assume that.)  Rhaegar says, "The dragon has three heads, there must be one more."  He is not thinking about ice and fire, though it is in his song for Aegon. 

Fair enough... lets just say for arguments sake, if Rhaegar's whereabouts are unknown, could it be possible he was in fact somewhere up north? The way I perceive her (which is purely my opinion) is regardless of the deadly weather, it wouldn't stop Lyanna Stark, at least attempting to travel anywhere... Now don't get me wrong, if there were hundreds of feet of snow (as there has been in the past) she couldn't get too far... But i just picture her as being a, "Don't underestimate me because i'm a girl- I can do anything a man can do"... which i could be wrong. Maybe close enough to WF where she could still keep up appearances? He could have conceived Aegon and then left?

I agree, that we cant assume, nor should we assume, that the vision might be incorrect- but once again, to play devils advocate, I feel as though visions, prophecies, or whatever they may be, can and some have been manipulated in some way, shape or form, so we shouldn't necessarily go by what is said word for word.

Thanks again for replying and indulging me! 

[MtnLion]

1 hour ago, Chris5083 said:

Rhaegar's whereabouts are unknown

When are Rhaegar's whereabouts unknown?  We need to believe that he is present for Aegon's birth, which appears to be very near the point where the Black Water froze over.  It is logical for Rhaegar, who has been in communication via raven with Aemon concerning Aegon's birth, to want to discuss the matters with the Maester face to face, when he learns that Elia can have no more children.  You seem to be assuming a romantic, out of wedlock relationship that is not in keeping with either Rhaegar's or Lyanna's character.  Rhaegar disappears with six close companions, two of whom are Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.  Not the sort of solitary romantic rendezvous you are suggesting. 

Lyanna does not want her betrothal to Robert for the reasons she gives to Ned, at Winterfell, the day her betrothal is announced.  (Another discussion regarding the betrothal announcements is ongoing, but I will state my opinion which is that at the time the date of the wedding is set, the formal announcement is made.  The wedding cannot take place without the liege's consent, and in this case that would require the king's consent.  Also, since it is bitter winter, following Harrenhal (when Lyanna can have learnt about Mya Stone) the date would be set near the end of winter.  The same is true for Catelyn's betrothal announcement.)  The presentation of the crown at Harrenhal does not seem to have any romantic gesture intended.  It appears solely to be recognition of Lyanna for her role as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  Rhaegar goes to Dragonstone with Elia, afterwards. 

Edit:  There is insufficient time for Lyanna to have two or more pregnancies.  As stated before there is only about 21 months between Harrenhal and Sack, and about a fortnight between Sack and Jon's birth.  Aegon is about one year old when the Mountain kills him.  Any delay, and obviously there is one, and Lyanna cannot have two children between those dates. 

[nanother]

3 hours ago, MtnLion said:

I keep coming up with this definition for betrothal:

1. a mutual promise or contract for a future marriage
2. the act of promising to marry someone
3. an agreement that two people will be married in the future

So I read:  announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark as being a formal announcement of the betrothal.  Are you saying that I am incorrect?  The wedding won't happen without the approval of the king, either.  It seems to me that the announcement was made after receiving the king's approval. 

I kind of couple this with how Brandon rebelled, from Barbrey's point of view, when his engagement became known and he had to break off their relations.  A couple that are betrothed by their parents could be completely oblivious to that fact until the parents told them about it.  In hindsight they can know that their future had been arranged for them when they were quite young. 

Not so much that you're incorrect - that would be my instinctive reading of that sentence as well - but that the wording might be slightly misleading there. It can also be understood as 'it was announced that the time for the wedding has come at last', which makes more sense considering all circumstances*. I mean, if even Jaime knew that Cat was promised to Brandon (when he visited Riverrun as Crakehall's squire), then surely both Cat and Petyr would have been aware of it as well.

Now, the Barbrey thing ... yeah, it's confusing. Either Brandon was left in the dark (seems unlikely), or hoped that there would be a way out of it, or he deceived Lady Barbrey, or he started carrying his bloody sword around at a very young age and he broke up with Lady B at the time of the actual betrothal (I think he'd have been around 14 -15 when Cat was 12, give or take, which does seem a bit too young for this). Or something else entirely.

* @Rhaenys_Targaryen's quote from the world book app is along the same lines. Also, using her input on Cat and Lysa's ages, Petyr would have been 10 at most when the betrothal happened. It makes sense that he just accepted it at the time, or didn't even care, and only thought to challenge Brandon when the wedding was about to happen.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

9 minutes ago, nanother said:

* @Rhaenys_Targaryen's quote from the world book is along the same lines. Also, using her input on Cat and Lysa's ages, Petyr would have been 10 at most when the betrothal happened. It makes sense that he just accepted it at the time, or didn't even care, and only thought to challenge Brandon when the wedding was about to happen.

Perhaps he had yet to develop his crush?

 

One small thing, the quote comes from the app, not the world book

[MtnLion]

5 minutes ago, nanother said:

Now, the Barbrey thing ... yeah, it's confusing. Either Brandon was left in the dark (seems unlikely), or hoped that there would be a way out of it, or he deceived Lady Barbrey, or he started carrying his bloody sword around at a very young age and he broke up with Lady B at the time of the actual betrothal (I think he'd have been around 14 -15 when Cat was 12, give or take, which does seem a bit too young for this). Or something else entirely.

I am thinking of it as along the lines of being a tentative offer to marry, until they come of age.  When they come of age the planning begins, which includes having both parties still in agreement, seeking the king's permission, and setting the date.  The last part of it begins the engagement to be married, and is the formal announcement.  As in, "we have been planning this for years, and now the time has come for it to become formal because all of the preliminaries have been met."  We have heard of many betrothals that have been broken before a date is set, some even after (IIRC). 

[Lord Varys]

@SFDanny

@nanother

I seem to recall that Ned remembers he was sent at the age of eight to the Vale. One would assume that Robert must have either been there by that time or come shortly thereafter for them to grow up together and become as close as they were. We don't know how much time they spent there together, after all, but we don know that both Robert and Ned also had time to spend crucial times with their other siblings (Robert was there when Stannis had his falcon, and spend some time with Lyanna and Brandon, too).

While Steffon Baratheon was close to Aerys II and Tywin in their youth we have no reason to believe he held a position at court or spent much time there before Aerys charged him with searching for a bride for Rhaegar in Volantis. In fact, there are hints that Steffon was not in the capital all that often considering that Stannis remembers his first visit to KL with his father and Robert and how he mistook Tywin for Aerys - suggesting that Steffon wasn't all that often at court and, even more importantly, that the Targaryens were not really close to their Baratheon cousins (at least not to Stannis).

In general, a Citadel conspiracy against magic and dragons and attempts to hatch dragon eggs makes sense. But I still have massive problems to buy any theory which relies on the idea that the maesters would threaten or endanger the effectiveness/legitimacy of the central authority. And that relied on the Targaryen monarchy. The world the Citadel is building is not just a world without magic and based on rationality and science. It is also a world of the law. And the law needs a strong king to uphold and protect it.

The Citadel had no good reason to create some lasting alliances of great houses against the Crown. That had the potential to rip the Seven Kingdoms apart.

[Chris5083]

5 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

When are Rhaegar's whereabouts unknown?  We need to believe that he is present for Aegon's birth, which appears to be very near the point where the Black Water froze over.  It is logical for Rhaegar, who has been in communication via raven with Aemon concerning Aegon's birth, to want to discuss the matters with the Maester face to face, when he learns that Elia can have no more children.  You seem to be assuming a romantic, out of wedlock relationship that is not in keeping with either Rhaegar's or Lyanna's character.  Rhaegar disappears with six close companions, two of whom are Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.  Not the sort of solitary romantic rendezvous you are suggesting. 

Lyanna does not want her betrothal to Robert for the reasons she gives to Ned, at Winterfell, the day her betrothal is announced.  (Another discussion regarding the betrothal announcements is ongoing, but I will state my opinion which is that at the time the date of the wedding is set, the formal announcement is made.  The wedding cannot take place without the liege's consent, and in this case that would require the king's consent.  Also, since it is bitter winter, following Harrenhal (when Lyanna can have learnt about Mya Stone) the date would be set near the end of winter.  The same is true for Catelyn's betrothal announcement.)  The presentation of the crown at Harrenhal does not seem to have any romantic gesture intended.  It appears solely to be recognition of Lyanna for her role as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  Rhaegar goes to Dragonstone with Elia, afterwards. 

Fair enough. Thanks!

You state that Rhaegar and six companions disappear. ie: whereabouts unknown. Am i totally mixing myself up with the timeline of his disappearance? which could be the case, btw, because now I feel like i'm confusing myself at this point, so kudos to you for continuing! 

IMHO I do assume a romantic relationship, however not out of wedlock. I believe Rhaegar found Lyanna as KotLT, and that is how they officially met. She could have explained her reasoning and in turn gained respect, and became curious about her... thus presenting her the crown, not only to acknowledge her as the KofLT but also as someone that caught his interest. Why does Lyanna stick around afterwards? I know she didn't want to marry Robert, and I think that on her way to Riverrun, she (and maybe Benjen?) breaks off and she meets up with Rhaegar, where they possibly got married at the Isle of Faces? 

Of course, if during the time after the tourney, they did conceive, than you're right.. it would be out of wedlock and in turn uncharacteristic. I cant help but think that maybe there is more of a tie regarding the weirwood present on her shield as the KotLT, other than that being the symbol of her religion but that of the symbol followed by the CotF and greenseers. Jojen Reed is a greenseer, Bran Stark is a greenseer and warg, is it possible Lyanna had abilities, or maybe even Howland... and they saw what the future would hold, or maybe some important information?

I'm going really far into speculation now... I know that. But it's really fun and interesting to think about the what if's and maybes!

[Starstorm]

23 minutes ago, Chris5083 said:

Fair enough. Thanks!

You state that Rhaegar and six companions disappear. ie: whereabouts unknown. Am i totally mixing myself up with the timeline of his disappearance? which could be the case, btw, because now I feel like i'm confusing myself at this point, so kudos to you for continuing! 

IMHO I do assume a romantic relationship, however not out of wedlock. I believe Rhaegar found Lyanna as KotLT, and that is how they officially met. She could have explained her reasoning and in turn gained respect, and became curious about her... thus presenting her the crown, not only to acknowledge her as the KofLT but also as someone that caught his interest. Why does Lyanna stick around afterwards? I know she didn't want to marry Robert, and I think that on her way to Riverrun, she (and maybe Benjen?) breaks off and she meets up with Rhaegar, where they possibly got married at the Isle of Faces? 

Of course, if during the time after the tourney, they did conceive, than you're right.. it would be out of wedlock and in turn uncharacteristic. I cant help but think that maybe there is more of a tie regarding the weirwood present on her shield as the KotLT, other than that being the symbol of her religion but that of the symbol followed by the CotF and greenseers. Jojen Reed is a greenseer, Bran Stark is a greenseer and warg, is it possible Lyanna had abilities, or maybe even Howland... and they saw what the future would hold, or maybe some important information?

I'm going really far into speculation now... I know that. But it's really fun and interesting to think about the what if's and maybes!

Hello, fellow new member!

     In my very honest opinion, and in terms of discussion we were having earlier, the Tourney of Harrenhal was a plot by Rhaegar to meet with the political alliance of the Starks, Tullys, Arryns and Baratheons. We note this political bloc as STAB. The popular theory is that Rhaegar was using the Tourney of Harrenhal as a means to speak with this alliance about teaming up to overthrow his father and place Rhaegar on the throne. What he didn't expect was Aerys himself appearing at the tournament, in person, due to advice from Varys. Now, if Lyanna was indeed the KotLT, whom Aerys in his paranoid state believed to be an enemy, imagine how he would react if he figured out who it was. I believe he already had a notion of what was happening with the STAB alliance and Rhaegar's scheming, so I think it would be within reason to assume he had men hunting Lyanna down after the tourney, so he can take her hostage for the crime of treason. This would severely weaken STAB, as Lyanna was to be betrothed to Robert.

Here's where things get relevant.

The theory goes that Rhaegar catches wind of his father's aim to kidnap Lyanna, and goes to save her. As Aerys expects her to go northbound to escape him, that's where he sends his troops. However, Rhaegar pulls a Catelyn and goes in the opposite direction, to Dorne where he has the Daynes and Martells to defend him and Lyanna until he can explain his actions to the Starks, and hopefully return her to him.

What he did not expect is Brandon being an idiot and demanding his death outside the Red Keep.

After Rickard and Brandon's deaths, all hope of a STAB alliance collapses. Robert swears to take Lyanna back and kill Rhaegar for his supposed rape and kidnapping, and Rhaegar's chance at the throne fades away. This is where they come to each other for comfort, much like Jeyne Westerling and Robb Stark did after Bran and Rickon's supposed deaths. This is when they fall in love, I believe, not beforehand when Rhaegar was thinking merely politically to save Lyanna's life and therefore his chance to keep STAB as his allies.

It is during her pregnancy that he realizes the prophecy and decides to marry her, both to preserve her honor and fulfill the Song of Ice and Fire.

Again, this is all just my personal thoughts on the matter. Barely any of this is confirmed canon. However, it explains much and makes sense, as GRRM is very fond of parallelism.

[Ser Leftwich]

With the various discussions of late, the more it seems (to me) like all of this became a problem because Rickard, Hoster, and Robert did not clear their marriage arrangements with Aerys.

- Did Hoster not go to Harrenhal to avoid having to talk to Aerys about his arrangement with Rickard?

- Same for Rickard, but for two children.

- Did Robert just not care to clear it with Aerys? Robert has a "I am a lord, I am going to do what I want" attitude. On another level (one of my pet theories) Aerys expected to arrange a marriage for Robert, as Aerys was the king AND Robert's older relative, but Robert did his own thing.

- Did Aerys choose Jaime for the Kingsguard to take away Tywin's heir AND to punish Tywin for arranging (or starting to negotiate) a marriage with Hoster?

[nanother]

47 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Perhaps he had yet to develop his crush?

My thinking exactly.

47 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

One small thing, the quote comes from the app, not the world book

D'oh, fixed.

45 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

I am thinking of it as along the lines of being a tentative offer to marry, until they come of age.  When they come of age the planning begins, which includes having both parties still in agreement, seeking the king's permission, and setting the date.  The last part of it begins the engagement to be married, and is the formal announcement.  As in, "we have been planning this for years, and now the time has come for it to become formal because all of the preliminaries have been met."  We have heard of many betrothals that have been broken before a date is set, some even after (IIRC). 

I think the betrothal itself (which would be the offer to eventually marry) is somewhat formal to begin with, as breaking it seems to be (at least there's some degree of fuss when Joff and Sansa's betrothal is cancelled).

 

[Chris5083]

15 minutes ago, Starstorm said:

Hello, fellow new member!

     In my very honest opinion, and in terms of discussion we were having earlier, the Tourney of Harrenhal was a plot by Rhaegar to meet with the political alliance of the Starks, Tullys, Arryns and Baratheons. We note this political bloc as STAB. The popular theory is that Rhaegar was using the Tourney of Harrenhal as a means to speak with this alliance about teaming up to overthrow his father and place Rhaegar on the throne. What he didn't expect was Aerys himself appearing at the tournament, in person, due to advice from Varys. Now, if Lyanna was indeed the KotLT, whom Aerys in his paranoid state believed to be an enemy, imagine how he would react if he figured out who it was. I believe he already had a notion of what was happening with the STAB alliance and Rhaegar's scheming, so I think it would be within reason to assume he had men hunting Lyanna down after the tourney, so he can take her hostage for the crime of treason. This would severely weaken STAB, as Lyanna was to be betrothed to Robert.

Here's where things get relevant.

The theory goes that Rhaegar catches wind of his father's aim to kidnap Lyanna, and goes to save her. As Aerys expects her to go northbound to escape him, that's where he sends his troops. However, Rhaegar pulls a Catelyn and goes in the opposite direction, to Dorne where he has the Daynes and Martells to defend him and Lyanna until he can explain his actions to the Starks, and hopefully return her to him.

What he did not expect is Brandon being an idiot and demanding his death outside the Red Keep.

After Rickard and Brandon's deaths, all hope of a STAB alliance collapses. Robert swears to take Lyanna back and kill Rhaegar for his supposed rape and kidnapping, and Rhaegar's chance at the throne fades away. This is where they come to each other for comfort, much like Jeyne Westerling and Robb Stark did after Bran and Rickon's supposed deaths. This is when they fall in love, I believe, not beforehand when Rhaegar was thinking merely politically to save Lyanna's life and therefore his chance to keep STAB as his allies.

It is during her pregnancy that he realizes the prophecy and decides to marry her, both to preserve her honor and fulfill the Song of Ice and Fire.

Again, this is all just my personal thoughts on the matter. Barely any of this is confirmed canon. However, it explains much and makes sense, as GRRM is very fond of parallelism.

Thanks for the insight!!! That does make a lot of sense, absolutely! I've been a long time reader but very new to online forums and other's theories in general, so the whole interaction with fellow fans is super exciting to me!

I've read similar stories on line, but, I have yet to hear this one as you've presented it, so thank you!!! The only thing that comes to mind... If Rhaegar is in fact worried for Lyanna's safety regarding his father, why put a target on her back even more so, by giving her the crown? Clearly, Aeron wanted to get the KotLT, do you think at this point Rhaegar knew it was Lyanna? If he did, that kind of seems like a F U to both the STAB & his father (and the Martell's for that matter, because of not giving it to his wife). If he wasn't aware that it was her, wouldn't it still kind of be a F U to all previously mentioned?

I believe in the theory that Rhaegar was indeed the 'shadow host' and wanted to form an alliance against his father... but it just doesn't add up why he would crown her, instead of his wife, if there wasn't something more. 

 

[MtnLion]

1 hour ago, Starstorm said:

if Lyanna was indeed the KotLT, whom Aerys in his paranoid state believed to be an enemy, imagine how he would react if he figured out who it was. I believe he already had a notion of what was happening with the STAB alliance and Rhaegar's scheming, so I think it would be within reason to assume he had men hunting Lyanna down after the tourney, so he can take her hostage for the crime of treason.

Aerys only has to veto any of the betrothals to nullify the alliance, if he feels threatened by it.

Timeline problems arise here.  Rhaegar appears to be present for the birth of Aegon, which is about one year before the Sack of King's Landing.  About one year before Jon's birth.  About nine or more months after the tourney.  The tourney was during the false spring, which lasted about two months, after which winter returned full force.  Brandon travels to Riverrun to answer Littlefinger's challenge after the winter has lifted.  It is after the duel, and after his errand that Brandon receives word that has him charge off to King's Landing. 

Now, if Aerys was obsessed about the Knight of the Laughing Tree and discovering the identity, to arrest for treason, certainly someone would have noted the nearly a year that Aerys was hunting said knight.  Especially considering that the hunt would be continuing during the winter.   

[UnViserion]

Aerys did not order Lyanna's arrest for being the Knight of the Laughing Tree. How that idea has sustained any wind is completely beyond me. 

If George actually writes that into the story, we'll know he's grasping at straws. It's totally laughable

[UnViserion]

On 5/4/2016 at 0:50 AM, Ser Creighton said:

It's been a long time. I see some familiar faces, some not so. I hate to stop in for old home week without bringing any presents. So I got a nice little Black and gold box I am going to open for you. Oh and what's inside, a shinny new Jon. Why is Jon in a Black and gold box you might ask. Inverse parallel time. I's not going to be to detailed, and I will be paraphrasing, saves time.

Some of you know some of these basics some of you don't.

3 and 1 representing an inversion of each other. That will be important here. It's all about Jon and Cersei's kids of which there are three. Black and Gold ringing any bells now?

2 men, Robert and Ned, Stag and Dire Wolf.

Robert has 3 Children who are not his Children though he does not know that. Gold is there Crown and Gold is their shroud. They are bastards, who presented as legitimate Royalty. Robert has been lied too and believes he is the father.

Ned has 1 Son who is presented as a bastard, Ned lies about the legitimacy of this child and claims to be the father.

Now none of the children I am speaking about belong to Ned or Robert, they have other children. Like Robb and Ned, funny how that worked out. Not the only kids of course., but you get the idea.

So when Ned is searching through the book of hair, that's what I am going to call it, what is he doing? He is trying to figure out if there is a legitimate heir to the throne. What throne? The Iron Throne? Who's throne is that? It's the Targaryen throne. Claim whoever you want to be king but they made that throne and built KL. 

Ned will end up doing a Lyanna with Robert on his death bed. What did Robert want Ned to do?

So getting back to the book, Ned gets the big book of hair, does not figure anything out but off he goes to Tobho Motts Ch 27. Very important place, lots of symbolism.

You get the Black and White Doors, and we get Gendry, Gendry has great symbolism.  So what does he and we learn. We learn Gendry is Roberts bastard and his mother had blonde hair while his is black like his fathers. but what else is going on? Well like Robert, Gendry has the horned lord symbolism, Robert with his stag helmet Gendry with his bull helmet. How are Gendry's eyes referenced? Blue as Ice. What else is referenced? The Wall coming down and purple and silver.

If you don't know about the Horned lord or Horn lord symbolism it's pretty simple, think symbolic of the Night's King. Robert vs. Rhaegar was kind of this alternate prelim to the main event.

Later Ned will make the connections, and using the book and we get the black before the gold. It was a line similar to that, I don't remember the exact quote. This is about the 3 bastard children presented as legitimate heir's to the Iron throne. We hear something else about them much later on, Gold will be their crowns and Gold their shrouds. Right? Remember that? When you are talking about shrouds there you are talking about death but also obscuring. Ned had to figure out the truth about these kids, their legitimacy was obscured.

Think about those two ideas. Because Jon is an inverse here, does that relate to him at all? Is Jon shrouded, does something obscure Jon? Of course Jon is a mystery. So yeah he is obscured. How is he shrouded right now? Is Jon a Stark or a Targ? Yes and no, Jon's new family is the watch. Why? Because he took "the Black." His shroud is black. Did he die with this shroud? Why it looks that way. And what does the Black precede?

Can you see how Martin inverted it. Lannister children, golden crowns first, then golden shrouds. Jon is not illegitimate, his shroud is not gold, it was black and black was the sign of legitimacy here. And he was shrouded in black and died first, he wore no crown before that. Martin flipped the colors from gold to black and flipped the order of events. He even tells you he is doing it, he tells you to look for the black as the mark of a legitimate heir in this parallel. He tells you they will be shrouded, obscured perhaps even dead.  

 

Interesting take. I'm not sure the end conclusion is correct but interesting nonetheless 

[SFDanny]

10 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Aerys only has to veto any of the betrothals to nullify the alliance, if he feels threatened by it.

That's an interesting take on the subject. Do you have any examples of betrothals being cleared for his possible veto? Or is this your assumption that the king can do whatever he wants? I'd bet the High Lords of Westeros, and the not so High Lords as well would take issue with the king interfering with their right to arrange marriages of their children as they pleased.

Now, the king always has other powers to make his displeasure known. So do the High Lords over their bannermen. But a right of veto is a far stretch here. This isn't like a bill going through Congress in which a marriage pact needs to pass through the ok of the king before being valid.

Nor do we have any evidence that any of the betrothals of the STAB alliance were ever presented to the king for his approval. In fact, Aerys's interference in the Jaime-Lysa marriage is not done with a veto, but through the subterfuge of "honoring" Jaime through his appointment to the Kingsguard.