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R=L=D, B=A=J, R=L=J and so on and so on


TheSnowInWinterfell

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I have been reading and listening to quite a few opinions and theories lately that state R+L=J is too obvious and doesn't make sense. That Lyanna birthed Dany and Ned switched her with Jon at Starfall. That R=L=J actually is Robert +Lyanna = Jon.  Is this just because it's been so long between books? I don't get it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't The George come right out and say that Dany was born almost a year AFTER Jon? If that's the case, for R+L to = D, then wouldn't Jon have had to be born right around the time Bobby B's Rebellion started, and wouldn't that have been impossible?

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Some fans are in denial about certain parts of the story, so they make things up and end up changing many parts of the story to fit their theory.  Some fans think R+L=J is too obvious(bad argument) or it is too Disney like with the hidden prince trope(worse argument) so they try to come up with different theories.  Yes there is too much time between books, but there are some more crazy theories beside alternate Jon parentage theories out there because we have so much time between books.  

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Some fans are in denial about certain parts of the story, so they make things up and end up changing many parts of the story to fit their theory.  Some fans think R+L=J is too obvious(bad argument) or it is too Disney like with the hidden prince trope(worse argument) so they try to come up with different theories.  Yes there is too much time between books, but there are some more crazy theories beside alternate Jon parentage theories out there because we have so much time between books.  

It's really quite frustrating. Am I right in that R+L=D has basically been proven to be impossible?

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1 hour ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

It's really quite frustrating. Am I right in that R+L=D has basically been proven to be impossible?

Basically.  You would have to change a lot of parts of the story and make up a lot of character motivations that don't even exist.  I like to keep an open mind when it comes to theories, but if it doesn't pass the smell test then I just tune it out.  If people don't want to believe R+L=J then they are free to do so, however they are going to be incredibly disappointed in the future.  

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Yeah R+L=J doesn't make much sense because it doesn't involve secret parentage from Mexican soap operas, time-travelling sperms, 2-year-long pregnancies, lemon trees in cold places, separated twins and so on... (please add whatever I have forgotten). It is so prosaic, with just nothing going against it, unlike those theories that have logic, cardinal rules of literature and common sense completely opposing them.

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3 hours ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

Is the Lemon tree thing like Jeyne Westerlings hips? Or is there an explanation? Such as the Lemon Tree was in the Sealord's palace?

Please see my signature.

It's funny how Mladen puts the lemon tree between "Mexican soap operas, time-travelling sperms, 2-year-long pregnancies, lemon trees in cold places, separated twins and so on..." to try to make it seem crackpot.

And yes, R+L=D is almost impossible (Unless George is playing with semantics or lying in the SSM.) Funny thing about that SSM, it lays out the timeline for Rhaegar+Ashara=Dany quite nicely.

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10 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Please see my signature.

It's funny how Mladen puts the lemon tree between "Mexican soap operas, time-travelling sperms, 2-year-long pregnancies, lemon trees in cold places, separated twins and so on..." to try to make it seem crackpot.

And yes, R+L=D is almost impossible (Unless George is playing with semantics or lying in the SSM.) Funny thing about that SSM, it lays out the timeline for Rhaegar+Ashara=Dany quite nicely.

He is definitely hinting about something in that SSM, no doubt. Not sure if it's R=A=D, but definitely wants to make the point that Ashara is moving around Westeros.  

 

As far as your signature,I'm guessing that SSM says it's not a "Jeyne's hips" or "Renly's eyes" moment, and I know George says its perceptive to notice the lemon tree thing, and says it points to something and he's not telling.  But could that just be George kinda covering his ass? And what is the popular opinion as far as what it is pointing to? All you can really deduce is that Dany may have been told things that weren't necessarily true. 

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3 hours ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

He is definitely hinting about something in that SSM, no doubt. Not sure if it's R=A=D, but definitely wants to make the point that Ashara is moving around Westeros.  

 

As far as your signature,I'm guessing that SSM says it's not a "Jeyne's hips" or "Renly's eyes" moment, and I know George says its perceptive to notice the lemon tree thing, and says it points to something and he's not telling.  But could that just be George kinda covering his ass? And what is the popular opinion as far as what it is pointing to? All you can really deduce is that Dany may have been told things that weren't necessarily true. 

That's the thing, we have enough information to know there is a mystery, but we don't have enough to solve it. I personally feel R+A=D fits the best, but who knows?

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8 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Please see my signature.

It's funny how Mladen puts the lemon tree between "Mexican soap operas, time-travelling sperms, 2-year-long pregnancies, lemon trees in cold places, separated twins and so on..." to try to make it seem crackpot.

And yes, R+L=D is almost impossible (Unless George is playing with semantics or lying in the SSM.) Funny thing about that SSM, it lays out the timeline for Rhaegar+Ashara=Dany quite nicely.

Well, by definition of crackpot, it is... And if you think it is funny, well, I can't help it.

The thing that people constantly forget is that we are not talking about possibilities here. We are talking about what worked in terms of literature, as ASOIAF is a work of literature. And even though show producers don't care about motifs, storylines and cohesiveness of the story, GRRM does. That is why many things that logically can happen, by the laws of literature can't and won't happen. So far, no one has even come close to explaining what is the point of Ashara and Rhaegar being Dany's parents nor what it brings to the story. Same goes for many theories. This is classical Mexican telenovelas theory craftsmanship. You exchange one set of parents for another and that's it. But the point remains that in literature the rules are a bit different.

So, the thing is not whether something is possible but whether fits the story. The SSM itself doesn't tell us. You could also argue that Rhaegar sneaked in Riverrun, had sex with Catelyn and he sired Robb. Or when Tyrion Targaryen theorists "found" the proof in WoIaF that Tyrion and not Jaime and Cersei is Aerys' son. All Aerys needed is a horse to ride to CR for a quickie with Joanna. So, the SSM tells us that people can move and interact and that we shouldn't make rigid assumptions about someone's whereabouts. It doesn't speak in favor of any theory, least of it, R+A=D. Having two adults at the same place and at the same time doesn't immediately ring babies. Unless you are Catelyn Stark. According to theorists, the woman had more lovers than Catherine the Great. 

In short, how secret parentage changes the story, how influences it, why did Martin put it there are just some of the questions only one theory so far has been able to provide satisfactory answers. And the theory is pinned on the first page of the General forum. Rhaegar/Ashara theory just like many other simply offers no answers to any of those questions other than giving Dany a fresh set of parents. 

And I will never stop being amazed at how certain circles are claiming that the man with menagerie that included dinosaur-like creatures wasn't able of having a lemon tree planted in his rather green garden.

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5 minutes ago, Risto said:

And I will never stop being amazed at how certain circles are claiming that the man with menagerie that included dinosaur-like creatures wasn't able of having a lemon tree planted in his rather green garden.

Well, I guess we can't all be "very perceptive"

I'd recommend you go back to the SSM and read those last couple paragraphs. There's a little passage that says "All Will Be Revealed In Good Time." I don't know why you think "In Good Time" equals "by the end of Book 5, after which nothing of significance will ever be revealed again," but it's a rather weak assumption to base your arguments on.

Just because George has not yet revealed the significance of House Dayne does not mean that House Dayne is insignificant. Dany being half-Danish (haha, I crack myself up) could have huge ramifications for her story, and perhaps answer some outstanding questions such as: How did Dany hatch dragons when no Targaryen had for a century and a half? Why did Dany have a vision of the Great Emperors of the Dawn as her ancestors? Why would Quaith tell her to remember who she is if she already knew?

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2 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Well, I guess we can't all be "very perceptive"

I'd recommend you go back to the SSM and read those last couple paragraphs. There's a little passage that says "All Will Be Revealed In Good Time." I don't know why you think "In Good Time" equals "by the end of Book 5, after which nothing of significance will ever be revealed again," but it's a rather weak assumption to base your arguments on.

Just because George has not yet revealed the significance of House Dayne does not mean that House Dayne is insignificant. Dany being half-Danish (haha, I crack myself up) could have huge ramifications for her story, and perhaps answer some outstanding questions such as: How did Dany hatch dragons when no Targaryen had for a century and a half? Why did Dany have a vision of the Great Emperors of the Dawn as her ancestors? Why would Quaith tell her to remember who she is if she already knew?

I have read that paragraph and once again, the problem with this theory is that simply, narrative-wise, it makes no point. Dany is Ashara's daughter so what? It is not like she is the first Targaryen ever to hatch a dragon. As I remember, quite the number of them managed to do that, and before Valyria fell, a lot of people there had done it too. All the questions you have asked can be answered rather easily and logically without including the secret parentage. Again, the theory is there for the theory itself, not the narrative and that is why I see no reason to believe in it.

Lastly, 5 out of 7 books represent huge chunk of AOISAF and whatever comes in the next two books most be in cohesion with what is already in the books. 

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

Lastly, 5 out of 7 books represent huge chunk of AOISAF and whatever comes in the next two books most be in cohesion with what is already in the books

Such as the multiple times lemons are associated with Dorne? Or when Quaithe asks Dany to remember her true identity? Or Dany's memory of Viserys beating her Targaryen identity into her? Or how about Barristan thinking that Dany had Ashara's eyes?

 

3 hours ago, Risto said:

the theory is there for the theory itself, not the narrative and that is why I see no reason to believe in it.

The theory is there because it fits the evidence. But by all means, continue believing that you know Dany's entire story arc and can somehow judge how theories fit within her overall narrative.

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18 hours ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

Is the Lemon tree thing like Jeyne Westerlings hips? Or is there an explanation? Such as the Lemon Tree was in the Sealord's palace?

GRRM published the Daenerys chapters in a novella form before A Game of Thrones was published, and in that version she remembered the lemon tree growing up in Pentos, not Braavos.

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

I have read that paragraph and once again, the problem with this theory is that simply, narrative-wise, it makes no point.

This is a very weak argument because we don't know that much about the overall narrative.
Most importantly (for the sake of this thread), it's still not clear what role Dany has in it. She could be the savior of the world or turn villain. She could end up on the throne or sacrifice herself (or be killed, who knows...). She could restore Targaryan rule or be the last Targaryan ruler. She could usher in a new era of magic, or end most of the magic (if the dragons die or if she kills them).
To sum up: we don't know what this story (the "song") is about yet. The second Battle for the Dawn? The end of the Iron Throne (and unified Westeros)? The return/end of magic? The restoration of the Targaryans (via Dany & Jon)? The end of absolute monarchy?
There are so many unknowns that it seems futile to talk about what makes sense "narrative-wise."

Quote

Lastly, 5 out of 7 books represent huge chunk of AOISAF and whatever comes in the next two books most be in cohesion with what is already in the books. 

The books leave a lot of possibilities open.

No offense, but when people talk about the narrative and cohesion, what they generally mean is that the books are likely to conform to their expectations. But we all have different expectations. Some focus on politics, others on magic. Some think Jon will be king in the end, others don't buy it. ... etc. There are so many elements that can be seen as clues and foreshadowing, that even some of the wildest theories could turn out to be true, without creating any problem narrative-wise.

The real question is how many "big" revelations are left for the final books. Jon's parentage is hardly the shocker. I'm not saying it's easy to guess, but all readers (even the least attentive) know that his parentage matters somehow. So if Martin has something big in store, it's only logical to wonder about Dany. The books have laid the groundwork for a massive plot twist, because whatever one thinks about lemons, the fact remains that she is struggling with serious identity issues.
Now, this doesn't mean that her identity itself is in question. It isn't... Yet. But there are clues that allow readers to wonder, just like there are alternative theories to R+L=J (the fishwife, Ashara...). Most of the clues are only there to mislead of course. But some may be actual hints at something.

Is R+L=D impossible? Well, George said Dany was born "8-9 months" after Jon, not a year. Since the events at the ToJ may have happened several months after the sacking, this would put Jon's birth in the middle of the war, not at the beginning. It's uncomfortable (/unlikely) because it means Jon would be older than Robb. But all it takes is for Ned to be able to give a convincing lie and prevent too many people from seeing Jon during his early years. It's a stretch to say the least, but not flat out impossible -as far as I know.
Could Ashara be Dany's mother? What we know makes it possible, though it raises the question of who the father would be. Rhaegar? Aerys? A Stark? A Targaryan is considerably more likely of course, except if the Daynes have dragon-birthing and dragon-riding abilities (which isn't impossible since their ancestry is a mystery). While it's often assumed that Ashara fell pregnant at Harrenhal, it's perfectly possible that she actually fell pregnant later, and even within the realm of possibility that she gave birth after faking her suicide. Some think she's still alive, that she's Lemore, or Quaithe, or in hiding somewhere...
Anyway I wouldn't dismiss alternatives. Not only is it easy to find narrative purpose for them, but they're fun to consider while waiting for the next book...

 

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4 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Well, I guess we can't all be "very perceptive"

I'd recommend you go back to the SSM and read those last couple paragraphs. There's a little passage that says "All Will Be Revealed In Good Time." I don't know why you think "In Good Time" equals "by the end of Book 5, after which nothing of significance will ever be revealed again," but it's a rather weak assumption to base your arguments on.

 Just because George has not yet revealed the significance of House Dayne does not mean that House Dayne is insignificant. Dany being half-Danish (haha, I crack myself up) could have huge ramifications for her story, and perhaps answer some outstanding questions such as: How did Dany hatch dragons when no Targaryen had for a century and a half? Why did Dany have a vision of the Great Emperors of the Dawn as her ancestors? Why would Quaith tell her to remember who she is if she already knew?

Aren't Dany, Viserion and Rhaeghar already 25% Dayne through a grandmother?  Are you saying that her being more Dayne would be more significant?

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