Why did Tywin want to marry Jaime to Lysa, not Cat?

[Walda]

When the twins were sixteen, a month or two before the Great Tourney of Harrenhal in the false spring, Jaime

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made a brief call at King’s Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. (ASoS, Ch.11 Jaime II)

Cersei persuades Jaime to give up Casterley Rock and join the Kingsguard, brokering the deal behind her father's back (With Aerys or Ser Gerold Hightower?)

The consequences are spectacular. Tywin

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resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock.  (ASoS, Ch.11 Jaime II)

only returning to King's Landing to set the city to the sword, fly a Lannister Lion over the Red Keep, and slaughter Rhaegar's widow and children, after Rhaegar has died on the Trident, fighting a foe that included at least some of Hoster's bannermen.

In the meantime, King Aerys made do with Lord Owen Merryweather as hand for a year, sending him into exile and appointing Ser Jon Connington just long enough to fight the Battle of the Bells and retreat into exile, replaced by Qarlton Chelstead who resigned when he couldn't persuade Aerys not to burn Kings Landing to the ground, to be burnt by wildfire and replaced in the last fortnight of Aerys reign by Lord Rossart who was with him 100% on razing Kings Landing, with all Prince Rhaegar's family in it.

And the realm goes to hell in a handbasket. Cersei stays single , with Tywin at Casterley Rock,  Rhaegar leaves his wife at Kings Landing, takes off with Lyanna, Brandon came to Kings Landing to kill him, followed by Lord Stark to save him, Jon Arryn refuses to send Robert and Ned to Kings Landing after them, and instead organised a double wedding with Lord Hoster, Catelyn for the new Lord Stark, and Lysa for Jon Arryn himself.

While Tywin was discussing dowries with Lord Hoster, and Cersei liaising with the commander of the Kings Guard (or someone who could influence him on Jaime's behalf), according to Barristan:

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With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.(ADwD, Ch.67 The Kingbreaker)

 

While I can see why Jon Arryn might prefer the proven-fertile younger sister, given that the elder is already betrothed to the Warden of the North who is now his former ward, I can't see why the Warden of the West would be so keen to have his eldest son, his pride and joy, heir to Casterley Rock, passed off to only the second daughter of a house that only goes back as far as the Targaryen dynasty. Especially when the Wardens of the South and the North had their elder daughters on the market, and wealthy old houses like the Hightowers, or strategically significant ones like the Florents and the Whents.

No doubt Lord Hoster would be thrilled to marry Lysa to Jaime, or at the very least, wary of refusing the Kings Hand. But Tywin's actions need more explaining. Especially as it would seem the child in most urgent need of marrying off was his daughter, not his son. Had Aerys borrowed so much money that Tywin didn't have the readies to settle on his daughter, and therefore had to deploy his son instead?

Or is it just that Cersei was lying to Jaime about Lysa? 

Or were Tywin Lannister and Hoster Tully really hashing out a settlement, and if so, what was in it for them?

[Leonardo]

Cat was already betrothed to Brandon Stark. This puts Tywin in with the new power bloc forming between Tully stark Baratheon and Arryn, which is all but moving to usurp the crown and place it on someone else's head.

Why he didn't want Elia for Jaime is beyond me though, as then Cersei could marry Eddard and bring yet another into the fold, or Jaime marries a prominent Reach house like the Tyrells (Mace's sister) or the Hightowers.

 

I suspect the most likely is that Cersei was lying.

[Leonardo]

On that note, Tywin would never want a "ruined" woman for Jaime, further reinforcing it. 

 

Jon Arryn was at war and needed the alliance and already had an heir

[Lord_Ravenstone]

45 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

On that note, Tywin would never want a "ruined" woman for Jaime, further reinforcing it. 

 

Jon Arryn was at war and needed the alliance and already had an heir

She wasn't ruined at the time she was promised though. 

Lysa doesn't get pregnant until after the tourney of Harrenhal timeframe. And that's after Jaime becomes KG.

[Leonardo]

4 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

She wasn't ruined at the time she was promised though. 

Lysa doesn't get pregnant until after the tourney of Harrenhal timeframe. And that's after Jaime becomes KG.

Ah true. Still seems a bit low to shoot for Jaime, but don't all the candidates?

[rmanoj]

It's because the order of the daughters doesn't really matter, unless you want to increase your chances of inheriting Riverrun (if Edmure dies childless or something). It's not the same as the case with second sons. If, say, Cersei married Oberyn, she would just be the wife of a landless man who can only advise his elder brother (not taking Oberyn's personality into account); someone who is not even an actual lord. That is not a suitable match for a daughter of the Rock. On the other hand, if Jaime married Lysa, Tywin and Hoster get what they want - an alliance between Riverrun and Casterly Rock - and Jaime and Lysa will be the future Lord and Lady of the Rock. No degradation on status.

[Leonardo]

And Cersei, The consolation prize to Tywin, is only Got to marry the king.

 

Jaime would have the world

 

Though i would say Edmure has a good chance of dying in this time/universe

[Neds Secret]

That's a good question if it were true, however cersei is the source of this rumour and I think she is lying. Jaime is Tywins golden child and I do not accept that he would settle for lysa for Jaime and I believe Cersie is just trying to make Jaimes options seem even more easy to choose from, from Jaimes point of view. Settle for the soiled second daughter of an upstart house or be close to Cersei and guard the King as an elite soldier. For Jaime it is a no brainer

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Cat Tully was not on the market, already promised to Brandon Stark, and breaking a betrothal is a Big Deal. Lysa was still the daughter of a lord paramount, so a perfectly appropriate match for little Jaime.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

Cat was propably already betrothed to Brandon Stark and considering Cersei is the only source I can think of, it might not even be true. The much more interesting question ist, why did Tywin refuse Elia Martell? Refusing a dornish princess but accepting Lysa Tully makes no sense whatsoever, unless it was something personal for Tywin, wich would only really make sense after Elia marries Rhaegar, not before. 

Elia has to be the Nr. 1 prospect amongst noblewomen across the realm. (next to Cersei herself, obviously) Was it just geographical convenience to have an alliance with a next door neighbour? Is Tywin a racist?!

This move would not only seal an alliance with the Martells who should be considered at least one step above the Tullys, but would also take Elia off the table for Rhaegar to marry, dramatically increasing Cerseis chances to become queen. This sounds like a very Tywin-like thing to do. But for some reason, he didn´t.

[WSmith84]

Their is nothing wrong with marrying a second daughter. The only affect it has is decreasing the chances of Jaime's children inheriting Riverrun, as Lysa's children will be behind Catelyn's, but that's about it. Tywin gets his eastern border secured and makes him (effectively) part of the Stark-Tully-Arryn bloc (not sure if the Baratheons were in it at that point), giving him more power at court. Hoster marries his second daughter to the heir to Casterly Rock and secures his western border, bringing another region into the alliance (and the wealthiest region, to boot). Basically, it was a win-win for both sides.

Also, this idea that only the children of other Lord Paramounts make good marriages is simply not true. We see plenty of them marrying within their own regions, sometimes to minor Houses. Same with the Targaryens, when they married outside themselves. Marrying your own bannermen helps keep them loyal.

[naseridrl]

Who else was there for Jamie from the LP houses though?  Arryn had nothing, Lyanna was not available, Elia Tywin had said no to and se was now married, Baratheons had no daughters, the only other option is the Tyrells and those two seem like they may have been married or betrothed already at that point.  Lysa was really the only option if Tywin wanted to have his heir marry someone from a LP House.

[purple-eyes]

6 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

That's a good question if it were true, however cersei is the source of this rumour and I think she is lying. Jaime is Tywins golden child and I do not accept that he would settle for lysa for Jaime and I believe Cersie is just trying to make Jaimes options seem even more easy to choose from, from Jaimes point of view. Settle for the soiled second daughter of an upstart house or be close to Cersei and guard the King as an elite soldier. For Jaime it is a no brainer

What do you mean by being soiled? 

LF drama only happened in 282, way after the HH tourney. 

When cersei asked him to join KG, lysa was a beautiful virgin maid. 

[purple-eyes]

I think cat is not available because she was promised at 12 years old to brandon.

So the question should be, since lyanna is so beautiful and also the only daughter of house stark, why did not Tywin go get her for Jaime? Why he wanted to get lysa for his golden son and heir? 

And keep in mind, robert was betrothed to lyanna after birth of Mya stone. It is not very early, surely later that Tywin refused elia for Jaime. 

[WSmith84]

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I think cat is not available because she was promised at 12 years old to brandon.

So the question should be, since lyanna is so beautiful and also the only daughter of house stark, why did not Tywin go get her for Jaime? Why he wanted to get lysa for his golden son and heir? 

And keep in mind, robert was betrothed to lyanna after birth of Mya stone. It is not very early, surely later that Tywin refused elia for Jaime. 

The Riverlands border the Westerlands, unlike the North. The marriage to Lysa secures Tywin's eastern border, unlike a marriage to Lyanna. The Tullys can also provide aid quicker in the event of war and are probably wealthier as well. Lysa just makes more practical sense than Lyanna does.

[purple-eyes]

3 hours ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

Cat was propably already betrothed to Brandon Stark and considering Cersei is the only source I can think of, it might not even be true. The much more interesting question ist, why did Tywin refuse Elia Martell? Refusing a dornish princess but accepting Lysa Tully makes no sense whatsoever, unless it was something personal for Tywin, wich would only really make sense after Elia marries Rhaegar, not before. 

Elia has to be the Nr. 1 prospect amongst noblewomen across the realm. (next to Cersei herself, obviously) Was it just geographical convenience to have an alliance with a next door neighbour? Is Tywin a racist?!

This move would not only seal an alliance with the Martells who should be considered at least one step above the Tullys, but would also take Elia off the table for Rhaegar to marry, dramatically increasing Cerseis chances to become queen. This sounds like a very Tywin-like thing to do. But for some reason, he didn´t.

I guess at that moment Tywin did not think rhaegar will marry Elia. He is still confident that aerys would agree. 

[Walda]

15 minutes ago, naseridrl said:

Who else was there for Jamie from the LP houses though?  Arryn had nothing, Lyanna was not available, Elia Tywin had said no to and se was now married, Baratheons had no daughters, the only other option is the Tyrells and those two seem like they may have been married or betrothed already at that point.  Lysa was really the only option if Tywin wanted to have his heir marry someone from a LP House.

Was she, though?

How is Lyanna unavailable? This is before Harrenhal, I can't see anything that would stop her father cutting a deal with Tywin over her, beyond that Rikard might sooner entrust his daughter to a pit viper. Lyanna might even prefer it, if she were given a choice between Jaime and Robert.

While I would accept that marriage would rule a woman out of consideration, I'm not so sure about the solemn sacred vows of a pre-exisiting betrothal are such a huge deal to everyone in Westeros, especially not one to a local bannerman, when the Lord Paramount of the Westerlands shows and interest. I mean, Joffrey put Sansa aside for Margaery pretty quick after Tywin swore to care for the realm on his grandson's behalf.

Although lesser houses like the Green Apple Fossoways and the Redwynes do have some leverage through being neighbours and through previous marriages, the same factors could work in Tywin's favour- I could imagine Tywin cutting a deal with Hoster for the more immediately marriageable daughter, and re-negotiating with Rickard for Lysa to marry Brandon instead, just because it would a) Piss off the Starks and b ) Remind the Tullys that they are a lesser house than the Lannisters, live in the Lannister's  back yard, with the Lannister-by-law Freys between them and the North c) don't have a place at court, or as much money, and its an honour.

Also, in the case of Mina and Jenna, there is no more reason to suppose they are engaged as to suppose they are single.

And I'm not sure that we should confine the possible brides to daughters of the Lords Paramount. While he wouldn't be keen to marry his children off to Freys, and a merchant-princes daughter would be out of the question, the grander old houses like the Florents and the Hightowers and the Daynes, the Whents and the Royces might have old claims to Lord Paramount status that Tywin might interest himself in, especially if he had some strategic reason for making the Lords Paramount of the Reach, the Stormlands, the Vale, the North, and/or the Prince of Dorne uneasy. 

Given the amount and type of distress the whole realm felt when Tywin Lannister decided to pack up his bat and ball and go home after his heir renounced the Rock and joined the Kingsguard,

If he really was treating with Hoster, ostensibly over a pretty humble marriage for Jaime, there must have been something else. A back-door to talks with the future Rebel Alliance Tywin could see forming? Or actually formenting a rebellion of his own, with Hoster.  Tywin must have had some plans for Jaime as the heir of Casterley Rock, and they would be strategic plans, because he is Tywin, but I just can't see what they might be.

I suspect Aerys would have been keeping an eye on Tywin, too. Even if he wasn't that paranoid with Tywin (which I don't believe is the case - pretty sure Aerys would never have opened the gates of Kings Landing to him except in anticipation of him and his entire army burning in Wildfire), he had an interest in keeping his Hand a humble servant, spoiling whatever game he was playing. Also, Aerys might want to avoid the Lords Paramount clubbing together, the way the Starks, Arryns and Barratheons had - but Aerys was lousy at that, brilliant at getting his allies to join his enemies against him, and Tywin was a master strategist.

7 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

That's a good question if it were true, however cersei is the source of this rumour and I think she is lying. Jaime is Tywins golden child and I do not accept that he would settle for lysa for Jaime and I believe Cersie is just trying to make Jaimes options seem even more easy to choose from, from Jaimes point of view. Settle for the soiled second daughter of an upstart house or be close to Cersei and guard the King as an elite soldier. For Jaime it is a no brainer

Very good point (omitting 'soiled' and substituting 'lesser' for 'upstart'). Still, I can't believe it was completely a Cersei lie. There must be some grains of truth - was he treating with Hoster, but not for Jaime's hand in marriage? or not for Lysa? Or was it not Hoster, but someone else?

Jaime relinquishing the Rock was worth completely breaking with Aerys, and relinquishing control of the realm, even though Jaime on the Kingsguard was effectively the hostage of Aerys.

8 hours ago, rmanoj said:

It's because the order of the daughters doesn't really matter, unless you want to increase your chances of inheriting Riverrun (if Edmure dies childless or something). It's not the same as the case with second sons. If, say, Cersei married Oberyn, she would just be the wife of a landless man who can only advise his elder brother (not taking Oberyn's personality into account); someone who is not even an actual lord. That is not a suitable match for a daughter of the Rock. On the other hand, if Jaime married Lysa, Tywin and Hoster get what they want - an alliance between Riverrun and Casterly Rock - and Jaime and Lysa will be the future Lord and Lady of the Rock. No degradation on status.

Well, part true. Entirely true in the case of the Tullys, but if Tywin were also considering families with no sons, or families from Dorne, or families with odd wills or customs, then it would matter. And I think Tywin would be interested in having first dibs on Riverrun if Edmure carks it, and of pissing the Northern lords off, or building an alliance with them.

[naseridrl]

57 minutes ago, Walda said:

Also, in the case of Mina and Jenna, there is no more reason to suppose they are engaged as to suppose they are single.

Considering that Mina's youngest child is 16 in 299 its reasonable to assume she was already married in 281 and had been for a little while at least.

[WSmith84]

13 minutes ago, Walda said:

Although lesser houses like the Green Apple Fossoways and the Redwynes do have some leverage through being neighbours and through previous marriages, the same factors could work in Tywin's favour- I could imagine Tywin cutting a deal with Hoster for the more immediately marriageable daughter, and re-negotiating with Rickard for Lysa to marry Brandon instead, just because it would a) Piss off the Starks and b ) Remind the Tullys that they are a lesser house than the Lannisters, live in the Lannister's  back yard, with the Lannister-by-law Freys between them and the North c) don't have a place at court, or as much money, and its an honour.

Why would Tywin do this? Tywin was scum, sure, but he didn't deliberately piss off his own allies. That's just stupid. And Catelyn instead of Lysa doesn't really bring anything to the table; he's just gone and made life more difficult for everyone, including himself. And why would Hoster or Rickard agree to this? It just makes them look bad in the other's eyes and they don't gain anything.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

56 minutes ago, Walda said:

Was she, though?

How is Lyanna unavailable? This is before Harrenhal, I can't see anything that would stop her father cutting a deal with Tywin over her, beyond that Rikard might sooner entrust his daughter to a pit viper. Lyanna might even prefer it, if she were given a choice between Jaime and Robert.

Lyanna, by the time of the Harrenhal tourney, had already long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon. Considering that the Jaime/Lysa match was on the table only shortly before the tourney, Lyanna was, in fact, off the table.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Walda said:

Also, in the case of Mina and Jenna, there is no more reason to suppose they are engaged as to suppose they are single.

Mina's daughter was born in 283 AC. The twins are older, and thus, it is highly likely that Mina was already married - at the very least betrothed - when Tywin was discussing the match for Jaime.

Janna is unknown, age-wise, but considering Olenna's age and Mace's year of birth, I would currently guess that she is older than him, and thus, likely to have already been married around 281 AC.

 

 

11 hours ago, Walda said:

While I can see why Jon Arryn might prefer the proven-fertile younger sister, given that the elder is already betrothed to the Warden of the North who is now his former ward, I can't see why the Warden of the West would be so keen to have his eldest son, his pride and joy, heir to Casterley Rock, passed off to only the second daughter of a house that only goes back as far as the Targaryen dynasty. Especially when the Wardens of the South and the North had their elder daughters on the market, and wealthy old houses like the Hightowers, or strategically significant ones like the Florents and the Whents.

Jaime marrying Lysa is not a poor match. She's the daughter of a Lord Paramount, and while House Tully might have been ruling the riverlands in that position for only some 300 years, their house existed much, much longer. 

The Warden of the South had only sisters, not daughters, and those sisters were, in all likelihood, already married or betrothed. Further, there were no Great Houses who had a girl of a suitable age available - House Martell, Baratheon, Stark, Arryn, even Targaryen - several of them had no daughters or sisters available, and those who did have daughters had seen their daughters already married or betrothed. House Greyjoy was the only House to come even close, but Asha was still several years too young, at least. Lysa was of the right age, right birth, and had the advantage of being the daughter of the ruler of the adjoining Kingdom.