A+J=T v.9

[Wouter]

Yes, I suspect this won't be addressed till late '17 (or later, depending on the extent of information available at that point).

Unless TWOW comes out earlier than that, but I can hardly imagine that happening.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I was reading another thread that made an interesting point. Rhaegar was born 259,  Tyrion was born 273, Viserys 276. So The King and Queen had 17 years without a 2nd child who lived long enough to be counted.  Of course 3 years prior to the birth of Viserys, Joanna and Aerys were having (some kind) of sex and Aerys had Tyrion on the side.  

In GoT, Dany marks her brother Viserys as "No true Dragon." and we all know what a little shit he was, nothing like Rhaegar or Dany.  Dany and Viserys also have the conversation where he blames her for being born too late, and she blames him for not being born a girl (both equally irrelevant), however it puts forward the idea that Viserys was a mistake in the family.  He was 'no true dragon' and he wasn't useful to be married to anyone.  The point is that Tyrion is the 'true dragon' 2nd child from Aerys.  Obviously Dany (nor anyone) knows about him, so it's never been brought up in the books before.  But I find this a very interesting concept which I've never thought of before.  He is the Second Son (and soon probably the leader of the Second Sons in Meereen) to replace the weak non-dragon that was born into the royal family.  

 

Cool right?

[ravenous reader]

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been covered before.

It's my contention that GRRM uses certain 'coded' words in order to imprint his meanings in the text.  So, for example, greenseeing is associated with words such as 'whispering,' 'rustling,' 'whistling,' 'scratching at the face [of moons, sky, etc.]', 'drowning' etc.  

Similarly, I've noticed that dragons are frequently associated with the word 'coiling.'  I'm not going to do an exhaustive summary of the quotes to prove my point, since that will be overly lengthy, but I think you'll understand what I mean if you perform a search for 'coil(ing)'.  In summary, 'coiling' is most frequently associated with dragons, serpents, fire, power, hair, whips, ropes, snares, projectiles, flight, war, mating, death, and the rise of various explosive and forbidding emotions such as anger and dread (fittingly, with reference to the latter, Balerion's epithet is 'the Dread'!).

In particular, with reference to the current topic A+J=T, anger coiling is related to waking a dragon.

Comically, GRRM includes the word ‘coiling’ a number of times to describe how Tyrion and Jon in turn awake each other’s dragons on their first 'roadtrip' together– i.e. rouse each other to anger, but also perhaps stir something latent in each other ‘blood calling to blood,’ while they ironically converse about the non-existence of dragons!  

This is actually the passage that, taken together with the rest, finally convinced me of A+J=T, although I had long taken an aversion to that theory and vigorously argued against it.  While I still find it cheesy and a cop-out from GRRM; going by the pattern of the encoded language -- which is my signature way of reading the text -- I can no longer dispute it.

First, let me provide you with a few illustrative examples of 'coiling' in relation to dragons:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

"Kings and dragons."

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

Significantly, Jon's imagination associates 'coiling' with dragons at the Wall.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals.

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I

Her hair had burned away in Drogo's pyre, so her handmaids garbed her in the skin of the hrakkar Drogo had slain, the white lion of the Dothraki sea. Its fearsome head made a hood to cover her naked scalp, its pelt a cloak that flowed across her shoulders and down her back. The cream-colored dragon sunk sharp black claws into the lion's mane and coiled its tail around her arm, while Ser Jorah took his accustomed place by her side.

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

Dany fled from the choice, out onto the terrace. She found Rhaegal asleep beside the pool, a green and bronze coil basking in the sun

1-2-3...All three dragons 'coil' --bingo!

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IX

"His Grace is but a boy. In the streets, it is said that he has evil councillors. The queen has never been known as a friend to the commons, nor is Lord Varys called the Spider out of love . . . but it is you they blame most. Your sister and the eunuch were here when times were better under King Robert, but you were not. They say that you've filled the city with swaggering sellswords and unwashed savages, brutes who take what they want and follow no laws but their own. They say you exiled Janos Slynt because you found him too bluff and honest for your liking. They say you threw wise and gentle Pycelle into the dungeons when he dared raise his voice against you. Some even claim that you mean to seize the Iron Throne for your own."

"Yes, and I am a monster besides, hideous and misshapen, never forget that." His hand coiled into a fist. "I've heard enough. We both have work to attend to. Leave me."

I think this is the same passage where it's repeatedly underscored that Tyrion is a 'twisted demon monkey' -- 'twisted' is another word frequently associated with dragons and especially deformed and inbred ones; 'twisted' is almost a synonym for 'coiling.'

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A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

Archibald Yronwood grasped the iron doors and pulled them apart. Their rusted hinges let out a pair of screams, for all those who might have slept through the breaking of the lock. A wash of sudden heat assaulted them, heavy with the odors of ash, brimstone, and burnt meat.

It was black beyond the doors, a sullen stygian darkness that seemed alive and threatening, hungry. Quentyn could sense that there was something in that darkness, coiled and waiting. 

 

The Princess and the Queen

In the sky above, Addam Velaryon could see the battle turning into a rout below him. Two of the three enemy dragonriders were dead, but he would have had no way of knowing that. He could doubtless see the enemy dragons, however. Unchained, they were kept beyond the town walls, free to fly and hunt as they would; Silverwing and Vermithor oft coiled about one another in the fields south of Tumbleton, whilst Tessarion slept and fed in Prince Daeron’s camp to the west of the town, not a hundred yards from his pavilion.

Dragons are creatures of fire and blood, and all three roused as the battle bloomed around them.

Fire and blood rouse a dragon (the way Aerys used to become sexually aroused by fire and blood).  War seems to inflame them to mating; hence Silverwing and Vermithor 'coiling about one another'.

Quote

The Princess and the Queen

The boy, the queen, and her ladies were marched at spearpoint through the gates of Dragonstone to the castle ward. There they found themselves face-to-face with a dead man and a dying dragon.

Sunfyre’s scales still shone like beaten gold in the sunlight, but as he sprawled across the fused black Valyrian stone of the yard, it was plain to see that he was a broken thing, he who had been the most magnificent dragon ever to fly the skies of Westeros. The wing all but torn from his body by Meleys jutted from his body at an awkward angle, whilst fresh scars along his back still smoked and bled when he moved. Sunfyre was coiled in a ball when the queen and her party first beheld him. As he stirred and raised his head, huge wounds were visible along his neck, where another dragon had torn chunks from his flesh. On his belly were places where scabs had replaced scales, and where his right eye should have been was only an empty hole, crusted with black blood.

 

The Princess and the Queen

The watchers in the yard scrambled for safety as the dragons slammed into the hard stone, still fighting. On the ground, Moondancer’s quickness proved of little use against Sunfyre’s size and weight. The green dragon soon lay still. The golden dragon screamed his victory and tried to rise again, only to collapse back to the ground with hot blood pouring from his wounds.

King Aegon had leapt from the saddle when the dragons were still twenty feet from the ground, shattering both legs. Lady Baela stayed with Moondancer all the way down. Burned and battered, the girl still found the strength to undo her saddle chains and crawl away as her dragon coiled in her final death throes. When Alfred Broome drew his sword to slay her, Martson Waters wrenched the blade from his hand. Tom Tangletongue carried her to the maester.

 

The Rogue Prince

And so it was that the princess was at her good-sister’s side on the third day of that accursed year 120 AC, the Year of the Red Spring. A day and a night of labor left Laena Velaryon pale and weak, but finally she gave birth to the son Prince Daemon had so long desired—but the babe was twisted and malformed, and died within the hour. Nor did his mother long survive him. Her grueling labor had drained all of Lady Laena’s strength, and grief weakened her still further, making her helpless before the onset of childbed fever.

As her condition steadily worsened, despite the best efforts of Driftmark’s young maester, Prince Daemon flew to Dragonstone and brought back Princess Rhaenyra’s own maester, an older and more experienced man renowned for his skills as a healer. Sadly, Maester Gerardys came too late. After three days of delirium, Lady Laena passed from this mortal coil. She was but twenty-seven. During her final hour, it is said, Lady Laena rose from her bed and made her way from her room, intent on reaching Vhagar that she might fly one last time before she died. Her strength failed her on the tower steps, however, and it was there she collapsed and died. Her husband Prince Daemon carried her back to her bed. Afterward, Princess Rhaenyra sat vigil with him over Lady Laena’s corpse and comforted him in his grief.

The 'mortal coil' -- that's ultimately what dragons are about.  What a heartbreaking passage!

The results of this kind of analysis might surprise you.  For example, by tracing the word 'coil' alone, one might happen on an association between dragons and seemingly unrelated phenomena like weirwoods:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you."

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty.

Shade of the evening is like fire coiling within her and awaking her inner dragon; parallel to how Bran's greenseeing blood is awakened by the weirwood bole.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

Before them a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots, a woven weirwood throne that embraced his withered limbs as a mother does a child.

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. 

The use of the word 'coiling' is not only apt considering Bloodraven is a kind of dragon, but might lead one to conclude, as I have eventually, that all magic can be related to the element of fire -- but that's another story.

Turning to Tyrion and Jon now, the critical passage in question:

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

 The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked.

"Dragons," Tyrion told him.

"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't . . . "

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father . . . he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch . . . "

"Stop it," Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger. "The Night's Watch is a noble calling!"

Tyrion laughed. "You're too smart to believe that. The Night's Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it's scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you're not allowed to breed anyway, I don't suppose that matters."

"Stop it!" the boy screamed. He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears.

Tyrion's gleeful taunting is really winding Jon up and having the desired effect of waking that dragon!  The two of them are engaging in a veritable 'dance of the dragons' taking turns to coil and uncoil...

Then Tyrion gets his comeuppance, as Jon wakes his:

Quote

Suddenly, absurdly, Tyrion felt guilty. He took a step forward, intending to give the boy a reassuring pat on the shoulder or mutter some word of apology.

He never saw the wolf, where it was or how it came at him. One moment he was walking toward Snow and the next he was flat on his back on the hard rocky ground, the book spinning away from him as he fell, the breath going out of him at the sudden impact, his mouth full of dirt and blood and rotting leaves. As he tried to get up, his back spasmed painfully. He must have wrenched it in the fall. He ground his teeth in frustration, grabbed a root, and pulled himself back to a sitting position. "Help me," he said to the boy, reaching up a hand.

And suddenly the wolf was between them. He did not growl. The damned thing never made a sound. He only looked at him with those bright red eyes, and showed him his teeth, and that was more than enough. Tyrion sagged back to the ground with a grunt. "Don't help me, then. I'll sit right here until you leave."

Jon Snow stroked Ghost's thick white fur, smiling now. "Ask me nicely."

Tyrion Lannister felt the anger coiling inside him, and crushed it out with a will. It was not the first time in his life he had been humiliated, and it would not be the last. Perhaps he even deserved this. "I should be very grateful for your kind assistance, Jon," he said mildly.

"Down, Ghost," the boy said. The direwolf sat on his haunches. Those red eyes never left Tyrion. Jon came around behind him, slid his hands under his arms, and lifted him easily to his feet. Then he picked up the book and handed it back.

"Why did he attack me?" Tyrion asked with a sidelong glance at the direwolf. He wiped blood and dirt from his mouth with the back of his hand.

Oh, Tyrion -- maybe you shouldn't be so eager to wake the dragon, my sweet...?!

Quote

"Maybe he thought you were a grumkin."

Tyrion glanced at him sharply. Then he laughed, a raw snort of amusement that came bursting out through his nose entirely without his permission. "Oh, gods," he said, choking on his laughter and shaking his head, "I suppose I do rather look like a grumkin. What does he do to snarks?"

"You don't want to know." Jon picked up the wineskin and handed it to Tyrion.

Tyrion pulled out the stopper, tilted his head, and squeezed a long stream into his mouth. The wine was cool fire as it trickled down his throat and warmed his belly. He held out the skin to Jon Snow. "Want some?"

The boy took the skin and tried a cautious swallow. "It's true, isn't it?" he said when he was done. "What you said about the Night's Watch."

Tyrion nodded.

After all the ‘coiling’ back and forth, they then relent, have a good laugh, described as a snort in Tyrion's case, which happens to be quite apt -- a bit like breathing fire for dragons, as it comes 'bursting out through his nose without permission,' almost by instinct;  and thereafter share some wine which is described as 'cool fire warming the belly' as it might do a dragon; followed by a piping hot meal of roasted meat around the fire together in typical dragonesque fashion.

Significantly, the food is 'hot' in both senses of spicy and scalding, just the way a dragon likes it -- and Tyrion even demands 'more pepper'!'

Quote

Jon Snow set his mouth in a grim line. "If that's what it is, that's what it is."

Tyrion grinned at him. "That's good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."

"Most men," the boy said. "But not you."

"No," Tyrion admitted, "not me. I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons." He scooped up the fallen bearskin. "Come, we had better return to camp before your uncle calls the banners."

The walk was short, but the ground was rough underfoot and his legs were cramping badly by the time they got back. Jon Snow offered a hand to help him over a thick tangle of roots, but Tyrion shook him off. He would make his own way, as he had all his life. Still, the camp was a welcome sight. The shelters had been thrown up against the tumbledown wall of a long-abandoned holdfast, a shield against the wind. The horses had been fed and a fire had been laid. Yoren sat on a stone, skinning a squirrel. The savory smell of stew filled Tyrion's nostrils. He dragged himself over to where his man Morrec was tending the stewpot. Wordlessly, Morrec handed him the ladle. Tyrion tasted and handed it back. "More pepper," he said.

Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. "There you are. Jon, damn it, don't go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you."

"It was the grumkins," Tyrion told him, laughing. Jon Snow smiled. Stark shot a baffled look at Yoren. The old man grunted, shrugged, and went back to his bloody work.

The squirrel gave some body to the stew, and they ate it with black bread and hard cheese that night around their fire. Tyrion shared around his skin of wine until even Yoren grew mellow. One by one the company drifted off to their shelters and to sleep, all but Jon Snow, who had drawn the night's first watch.

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed

Considering they might be family, that's very poignant at the end there-- the moment of alienation from each other shortly following their dragon-bonding session as they both stare into the fire -- their own estranged element -- both none the wiser.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

I know that A+J=T  is almost as popular as R+L=J and with Tyrion's dreams of flying and of dragons  and his heterochromia , but there is a slight flaw . As much as I hate R+L=J ,Rhaegar and Lyanna did disappear together and was gone for months , as far as we know none of this happen with Aerys and Joanna Lannister . .

[Suzanna Stormborn]

16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been covered before.

It's my contention that GRRM uses certain 'coded' words in order to imprint his meanings in the text.  So, for example, greenseeing is associated with words such as 'whispering,' 'rustling,' 'whistling,' 'scratching at the face [of moons, sky, etc.]', 'drowning' etc.  

Similarly, I've noticed that dragons are frequently associated with the word 'coiling.'  I'm not going to do an exhaustive summary of the quotes to prove my point, since that will be overly lengthy, but I think you'll understand what I mean if you perform a search for 'coil(ing)'.  In summary, 'coiling' is most frequently associated with dragons, serpents, fire, power, hair, whips, ropes, snares, projectiles, flight, war, mating, death, and the rise of various explosive and forbidding emotions such as anger and dread (fittingly, with reference to the latter, Balerion's epithet is 'the Dread'!).

In particular, with reference to the current topic A+J=T, anger coiling is related to waking a dragon.

Comically, GRRM includes the word ‘coiling’ a number of times to describe how Tyrion and Jon in turn awake each other’s dragons on their first 'roadtrip' together– i.e. rouse each other to anger, but also perhaps stir something latent in each other ‘blood calling to blood,’ while they ironically converse about the non-existence of dragons!  

This is actually the passage that, taken together with the rest, finally convinced me of A+J=T, although I had long taken an aversion to that theory and vigorously argued against it.  While I still find it cheesy and a cop-out from GRRM; going by the pattern of the encoded language -- which is my signature way of reading the text -- I can no longer dispute it.

First, let me provide you with a few illustrative examples of 'coiling' in relation to dragons:

Significantly, Jon's imagination associates 'coiling' with dragons at the Wall.

1-2-3...All three dragons 'coil' --bingo!

I think this is the same passage where it's repeatedly underscored that Tyrion is a 'twisted demon monkey' -- 'twisted' is another word frequently associated with dragons and especially deformed and inbred ones; 'twisted' is almost a synonym for 'coiling.'

Fire and blood rouse a dragon (the way Aerys used to become sexually aroused by fire and blood).  War seems to inflame them to mating; hence Silverwing and Vermithor 'coiling about one another'.

The 'mortal coil' -- that's ultimately what dragons are about.  What a heartbreaking passage!

The results of this kind of analysis might surprise you.  For example, by tracing the word 'coil' alone, one might happen on an association between dragons and seemingly unrelated phenomena like weirwoods:

Shade of the evening is like fire coiling within her and awaking her inner dragon; parallel to how Bran's greenseeing blood is awakened by the weirwood bole.

The use of the word 'coiling' is not only apt considering Bloodraven is a kind of dragon, but might lead one to conclude, as I have eventually, that all magic can be related to the element of fire -- but that's another story.

Turning to Tyrion and Jon now, the critical passage in question:

Tyrion's gleeful taunting is really winding Jon up and having the desired effect of waking that dragon!  The two of them are engaging in a veritable 'dance of the dragons' taking turns to coil and uncoil...

Then Tyrion gets his comeuppance, as Jon wakes his:

Oh, Tyrion -- maybe you shouldn't be so eager to wake the dragon, my sweet...?!

After all the ‘coiling’ back and forth, they then relent, have a good laugh, described as a snort in Tyrion's case, which happens to be quite apt -- a bit like breathing fire for dragons, as it comes 'bursting out through his nose without permission,' almost by instinct;  and thereafter share some wine which is described as 'cool fire warming the belly' as it might do a dragon; followed by a piping hot meal of roasted meat around the fire together in typical dragonesque fashion.

Significantly, the food is 'hot' in both senses of spicy and scalding, just the way a dragon likes it -- and Tyrion even demands 'more pepper'!'

Considering they might be family, that's very poignant at the end there-- the moment of alienation from each other shortly following their dragon-bonding session as they both stare into the fire -- their own estranged element -- both none the wiser.

Wow very thorough post!!! I have been over that conversation many many times, but never made the connection with the word coiling before.  To me it's so amazing that Martin had it all planned as early as this in the 1st book.  But the symbolism is there and makes perfect sense. Tyrion is already talking about dreaming of Dragons before anyone else int he story (even Dany IIRC).  Not sure how it can still be denied.

12 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

I know that A+J=T  is almost as popular as R+L=J and with Tyrion's dreams of flying and of dragons  and his heterochromia , but there is a slight flaw . As much as I hate R+L=J ,Rhaegar and Lyanna did disappear together and was gone for months , as far as we know none of this happen with Aerys and Joanna Lannister . .

in TWOIAF, in the year before Tyrion's birth, 272. Joanna and Tywin came to KL for the 10 year anniversary Tourney of Aerys's reign.  The Maester's recount of what happened is clearly missing parts and some of it is heresay but by all accounts, Aerys made sexual comments about Joanna in front of everyone and was noted to have said he married the wrong woman, meaning he was jealous of the healthy Twins Joanna had given Tywin, while him and Rhaella had so much trouble getting heirs for themselves, Rhaegar and Viserys were born 17 years apart IIRC. When they were all drunk that night at KL Aerys made these comments, and the next morning Tywin tried to resign and him and Joanna left for CR.  Most of us believe that night something happened after dinner, either Joanna went to the king willingly since it was also well noted that they were previously lovers (and Joanna was sent away from court by Rhaella) or Aerys ordered her to his bed.  Either way works as motivation for Tywin to try to resign the next morning.  Then in the next year Tyrion is born a dwarf who dreams of dragons.  There was no history of odd births in the Lannister family but there was plenty in the Targaryen family tree (obviously). Aerys and Rhaella had 2 or 3 children who did not survive a year between Rhaegar and Viserys.

[ravenous reader]

35 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Wow very thorough post!!! I have been over that conversation many many times, but never made the connection with the word coiling before.  To me it's so amazing that Martin had it all planned as early as this in the 1st book.  But the symbolism is there and makes perfect sense. Tyrion is already talking about dreaming of Dragons before anyone else int he story (even Dany IIRC).  Not sure how it can still be denied.

Thank you!  Glad you enjoyed reading it.    It's a little glimpse into how I come to my conclusions.

From a psychological perspective, I think GRRM is irresistibly drawn to inventing alternative paternities, as part of the process of grappling with and working through his strained relationship to his own biological father.  Thus, the oedipal conflict is played out at on a grand scale in a number of contexts and character constellations, and makes for high drama, being as emotionally supercharged by the author's own experience as I surmise it is.

Regarding the dragon dreams, there's also a subtle moment where it's implied Jon feels Tyrion is making fun of him, which if you read between the lines can be understood as Jon feeling exposed for having had his own dragon dreams since childhood, which he 'suspiciously' believes Tyrion may somehow be intuiting, rather uncannily:

17 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

The implication is that Jon has indeed dreamt of having a dragon of his own.

Quote

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't . . . "

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

Again, it's insinuated that Jon has indeed had dreams in which he gives way to a certain 'pyromaniacal' lust, including directed at his own family.  We know this to be true later on when he dreams the dream of destroying everyone who gets in his way with his red fist on fire:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

 

[LmL]

32 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Thank you!  Glad you enjoyed reading it.    It's a little glimpse into how I come to my conclusions.

From a psychological perspective, I think GRRM is irresistibly drawn to inventing alternative paternities, as part of the process of grappling with and working through his strained relationship to his own biological father.  Thus, the oedipal conflict is played out at on a grand scale in a number of contexts and character constellations, and makes for high drama, being as emotionally supercharged by the author's own experience as I surmise it is.

Regarding the dragon dreams, there's also a subtle moment where it's implied Jon feels Tyrion is making fun of him, which if you read between the lines can be understood as Jon feeling exposed for having had his own dragon dreams since childhood, which he 'suspiciously' believes Tyrion may somehow be intuiting, rather uncannily:

The implication is that Jon has indeed dreamt of having a dragon of his own.

Again, it's insinuated that Jon has indeed had dreams in which he gives way to a certain 'pyromaniacal' lust, including directed at his own family.  We know this to be true later on when he dreams the dream of destroying everyone who gets in his way with his red fist on fire:

 

Have you read my Tyrion Targaryen episode? Those lines from Tyrion to Jon about "I know you have the same spot of dreams," which because of ambiguous sentence structure could refer to dreams of killing his family OR to dreams of dragons are some of the my favorites. 

Also I agree about George's need for alt parentages as a way of expressing a certain psychological dynamic. I also thinks it speaks powerfully to those of us who are adopted. My best friend was adopted and it has caused me to ponder that nature of parentage. It doesn't take long to realize that the people who raise you are your "parents," which is why the argument that Tyrion has to be Tywin's paternal son or else their relationship isn't as rich is bunk. He is Tywin's true son because he learned from Tywin the best, and because Tyrion and Tywin both have massive chips on their shoulders. Tyrion from being a dwarf, and Tywin from his father making the House a laughingstock. Thus, they have a lot in common, psychologically, whereas Cersei and jaime have the arrogance and narcissism which is so common to children of extremely wealthy people. Anyway. Good analysis, I agree, I and I think Tyrion not actually being Tywin's son makes it all the more rich and ironic. Also, as many have pointed out, this means Jaime and Tyrion killed each other's fathers. 

[ravenous reader]

25 minutes ago, LmL said:

Have you read my Tyrion Targaryen episode? Those lines from Tyrion to Jon about "I know you have the same spot of dreams," which because of ambiguous sentence structure could refer to dreams of killing his family OR to dreams of dragons are some of the my favorites. 

No, I've read the last two and the first after you exhorted me to recently.  I have tended to avoid reading Tyrion Targaryen essays in general, because I have distaste for A+J=T, as I revealed above!

On a tangent, do you know you said this in your first essay; it made me smile:

Quote

The famous “plumed serpent” himself, Quetzalcoatl of various Mesoamerican legends, is associated with both a comet and with Venus, the Morningstar.  The ‘plume’ refers to the head of the comet, like a lion’s mane...

You see -- even in the Leo department, you pre-date me...I am struggling to come up with something original I don't know you haven't thought of before 

Quote

Also I agree about George's need for alt parentages as a way of expressing a certain psychological dynamic. I also thinks it speaks powerfully to those of us who are adopted. My best friend was adopted and it has caused me to ponder that nature of parentage. It doesn't take long to realize that the people who raise you are your "parents," which is why the argument that Tyrion has to be Tywin's paternal son or else their relationship isn't as rich is bunk.

It doesn't diminish the richness or authenticity of the relationship; it diminishes the dramatic irony from a meta-perspective in my opinion.  I just don't think GRRM could bear to go there, having a son with whom he identified kill his biological father and be damned forever by the kinslaying -- so he displaced it onto a non-biological one, which somehow was more palatable to the author.  One of his premier stated drives in his literature is seeking 'redemption' -- and there's no redemption for biological kinslayers in his universe.  

That said, I agree the definition of 'family' is more fluid than we imagine.  With compassion, we ought to be able to conceive of a far-more inclusive and diverse family than the stringent confines of the 'nuclear' one.  

Quote

He is Tywin's true son because he learned from Tywin the best, and because Tyrion and Tywin both have massive chips on their shoulders. Tyrion from being a dwarf, and Tywin from his father making the House a laughingstock. Thus, they have a lot in common, psychologically, whereas Cersei and jaime have the arrogance and narcissism which is so common to children of extremely wealthy people. Anyway. Good analysis, I agree, I and I think Tyrion not actually being Tywin's son makes it all the more rich and ironic. Also, as many have pointed out, this means Jaime and Tyrion killed each other's fathers. 

I still believe Jaime is a dragon, ha ha!  (I have my pet symbolic fancies, as do you...).

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

No, I've read the last two and the first after you exhorted me to recently.  I have tended to avoid reading Tyrion Targaryen essays in general, because I have distaste for A+J=T, as I revealed above!

Well, read it for the analysis of Bran and the tower and the gargoyles, because you are talking about that scene a lot lately. Also, the connection to the Chinese Sun Wukong monkey demon king is really just fantastic stuff. You really have to check it out, it's one of the more amusing mythological inspirations used in ASOIAF. The essay isn't really to "prove" Tyrion is a Targ, but really an analysis of his gargoyle and monkey demon symbolism which ropes him into the AA symbolic tent as well as a dragon paternity. 

 

11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

On a tangent, do you know you said this in your first essay; it made me smile:

Quote

The famous “plumed serpent” himself, Quetzalcoatl of various Mesoamerican legends, is associated with both a comet and with Venus, the Morningstar.  The ‘plume’ refers to the head of the comet, like a lion’s mane...

You see -- even in the Leo department, you pre-date me...I am struggling to come up with something original I don't know you haven't thought of before 

I've written about so many things that I forget some of them. This wasn't my idea, of course, just the way the Mesoamerican authors of the Quetzalcoatl myth saw a likeness between a lion's mane and the comet plume. They esseniutally produced a maned serpent or a feathered serpent. And given that the various peoples of Mexico and South America are the ones famous for using obsidian knives and obsidian mirror for magic... it's pretty much a no-brainer to include Mesoamerican myth in our view of ASOIAF. 

Glad you read the first one, you see what I mean about the Alchemical Wedding? The sexual intercourse aspect of LB's forging is just as important as any other part of it. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Have you read my Tyrion Targaryen episode? Those lines from Tyrion to Jon about "I know you have the same spot of dreams," which because of ambiguous sentence structure could refer to dreams of killing his family OR to dreams of dragons are some of the my favorites. 

Also I agree about George's need for alt parentages as a way of expressing a certain psychological dynamic. I also thinks it speaks powerfully to those of us who are adopted. My best friend was adopted and it has caused me to ponder that nature of parentage. It doesn't take long to realize that the people who raise you are your "parents," which is why the argument that Tyrion has to be Tywin's paternal son or else their relationship isn't as rich is bunk. He is Tywin's true son because he learned from Tywin the best, and because Tyrion and Tywin both have massive chips on their shoulders. Tyrion from being a dwarf, and Tywin from his father making the House a laughingstock. Thus, they have a lot in common, psychologically, whereas Cersei and jaime have the arrogance and narcissism which is so common to children of extremely wealthy people. Anyway. Good analysis, I agree, I and I think Tyrion not actually being Tywin's son makes it all the more rich and ironic. Also, as many have pointed out, this means Jaime and Tyrion killed each other's fathers. 

Agree so much with the bolded.  We have discussed it many times on these threads, the nay-sayers always use Gemma's line to prove Tyrion is Tywins, but it doesnt matter who the sperm belonged to, the people who raise you are your parents.  And Tyrion certainly took after his father in terms of cleverness, but he couldnt shake that inner instinct towards dragons, same as Dany.  I think the Targ he has most in common with is Dareon the Drunk.  So many similarities.  Tyrion even has extremely similar hair to the guy.

[ravenous reader]

Ironic, should A+J=T be true:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion III

"You may sleep on the deck or in the hold, as you prefer. Ysilla will find bedding for you."

"How kind of her." Tyrion made a waddling bow, but at the cabin door, he turned back. "What if we should find the queen and discover that this talk of dragons was just some sailor's drunken fancy? This wide world is full of such mad tales. Grumkins and snarks, ghosts and ghouls, mermaids, rock goblins, winged horses, winged pigs … winged lions."

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

On 12/27/2016 at 5:02 PM, ravenous reader said:

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been covered before.

It's my contention that GRRM uses certain 'coded' words in order to imprint his meanings in the text.  So, for example, greenseeing is associated with words such as 'whispering,' 'rustling,' 'whistling,' 'scratching at the face [of moons, sky, etc.]', 'drowning' etc.  

Similarly, I've noticed that dragons are frequently associated with the word 'coiling.'  I'm not going to do an exhaustive summary of the quotes to prove my point, since that will be overly lengthy, but I think you'll understand what I mean if you perform a search for 'coil(ing)'.  In summary, 'coiling' is most frequently associated with dragons, serpents, fire, power, hair, whips, ropes, snares, projectiles, flight, war, mating, death, and the rise of various explosive and forbidding emotions such as anger and dread (fittingly, with reference to the latter, Balerion's epithet is 'the Dread'!).

In particular, with reference to the current topic A+J=T, anger coiling is related to waking a dragon.

Comically, GRRM includes the word ‘coiling’ a number of times to describe how Tyrion and Jon in turn awake each other’s dragons on their first 'roadtrip' together– i.e. rouse each other to anger, but also perhaps stir something latent in each other ‘blood calling to blood,’ while they ironically converse about the non-existence of dragons!  

This is actually the passage that, taken together with the rest, finally convinced me of A+J=T, although I had long taken an aversion to that theory and vigorously argued against it.  While I still find it cheesy and a cop-out from GRRM; going by the pattern of the encoded language -- which is my signature way of reading the text -- I can no longer dispute it.

First, let me provide you with a few illustrative examples of 'coiling' in relation to dragons:

Significantly, Jon's imagination associates 'coiling' with dragons at the Wall.

1-2-3...All three dragons 'coil' --bingo!

I think this is the same passage where it's repeatedly underscored that Tyrion is a 'twisted demon monkey' -- 'twisted' is another word frequently associated with dragons and especially deformed and inbred ones; 'twisted' is almost a synonym for 'coiling.'

Fire and blood rouse a dragon (the way Aerys used to become sexually aroused by fire and blood).  War seems to inflame them to mating; hence Silverwing and Vermithor 'coiling about one another'.

The 'mortal coil' -- that's ultimately what dragons are about.  What a heartbreaking passage!

The results of this kind of analysis might surprise you.  For example, by tracing the word 'coil' alone, one might happen on an association between dragons and seemingly unrelated phenomena like weirwoods:

Shade of the evening is like fire coiling within her and awaking her inner dragon; parallel to how Bran's greenseeing blood is awakened by the weirwood bole.

The use of the word 'coiling' is not only apt considering Bloodraven is a kind of dragon, but might lead one to conclude, as I have eventually, that all magic can be related to the element of fire -- but that's another story.

Turning to Tyrion and Jon now, the critical passage in question:

Tyrion's gleeful taunting is really winding Jon up and having the desired effect of waking that dragon!  The two of them are engaging in a veritable 'dance of the dragons' taking turns to coil and uncoil...

Then Tyrion gets his comeuppance, as Jon wakes his:

Oh, Tyrion -- maybe you shouldn't be so eager to wake the dragon, my sweet...?!

After all the ‘coiling’ back and forth, they then relent, have a good laugh, described as a snort in Tyrion's case, which happens to be quite apt -- a bit like breathing fire for dragons, as it comes 'bursting out through his nose without permission,' almost by instinct;  and thereafter share some wine which is described as 'cool fire warming the belly' as it might do a dragon; followed by a piping hot meal of roasted meat around the fire together in typical dragonesque fashion.

Significantly, the food is 'hot' in both senses of spicy and scalding, just the way a dragon likes it -- and Tyrion even demands 'more pepper'!'

Considering they might be family, that's very poignant at the end there-- the moment of alienation from each other shortly following their dragon-bonding session as they both stare into the fire -- their own estranged element -- both none the wiser.

Thanks for this new insight. I am really bad at this type of analysis (analysis based on word use and symbolic imagery are weak spots for me), so I appreciate people who can spot it. If I were not feeling so lazy these days, I would try to add it to the OP, but your post is too long just to copy and paste as is (so I would have to take time to figure out how to pare down the analysis). I am quite impressed that someone who is emotionally opposed to this plot point is objective enough to look at the clues and come to the opposite conclusion from an initial instinct. 

As to your issue regarding Tyrion's damnation for kinslaying/patricide, I think you have cause and effect reversed. Specifically, I tend to suspect that GRRM decided to make Tyrion a Targ bastard before he decided to have Tyrion kill Tywin. Tyrion as Targ bastard is more central to where GRRM is going, I think, than Tyrion killing his father. Tryion has to be Targ because the dragon must have three heads, not because GRRM needed to get Tyrion "off the hook" for killing his father. Perhaps GRRM would not have been willing to have Tyrion kill Tywin had GRRM not already decided to make Tyrion the son of Aerys. But I highly doubt that the motivation was come up with as a way to absolve Tyrion from killing Tywin. But I think you are correct that GRRM's willingness to have Tyrion kill Tywin could be seen as a clue that GRRM has not made Tywin as Tyrion's biological father.

@BRANDON GREYSTARK -- I think that SS did a pretty good job of summarizing the issues surrounding Aerys and Joanna being in the same location at the "right time" for Tryion's conception. This issue also is noted in the OP (not that I expect everyone to read the entire OP before making any comments in the thread).

But basically, this issue was repeated over and over again in various threads whenever ATJ was mentioned prior to the release of WOIAF. Other than the basic objection regarding "ruining the relationship" between Tyrion and Tywin, my recollection is that it was the next most common objection raised. Then a little over 2 years ago, WOIAF was released and included the scene (and other relevant information) summarized above by SS. After that, this particular objection basically disappeared, and objectors fell back on other arguments.

And for the record, AJT is NOT nearly as widely accepted as RLJ. Another site did a poll (polling people from many of the various ASOIAF dedicated sites), and RLJ was almost universally accepted while AJT was about 2 to 1 against. My recollection is that on most issues (the poll included many other theories and potential plot developments), I agreed with the majority. AJT obviously is an exception.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Ironic, should A+J=T be true:

"winged lions"

Tyrion is the son of Aerys II and Jon Connington! 

[ravenous reader]

24 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Thanks for this new insight. I am really bad at this type of analysis (analysis based on word use and symbolic imagery are weak spots for me), so I appreciate people who can spot it. If I were not feeling so lazy these days, I would try to add it to the OP, but your post is too long just to copy and paste as is (so I would have to take time to figure out how to pare down the analysis).

I'm flattered -- be my guest and edit away!  

Quote

I am quite impressed that someone who is emotionally opposed to this plot point is objective enough to look at the clues and come to the opposite conclusion from an initial instinct. 

It must be because I am emotionally attached to words -- and I'm quite faithful to them, regardless of the outcome!  Also, all of you guys have presented compelling arguments hard to ignore.

Quote

As to your issue regarding Tyrion's damnation for kinslaying/patricide, I think you have cause and effect reversed. Specifically, I tend to suspect that GRRM decided to make Tyrion a Targ bastard before he decided to have Tyrion kill Tywin. Tyrion as Targ bastard is more central to where GRRM is going, I think, than Tyrion killing his father. Tryion has to be Targ because the dragon must have three heads, not because GRRM needed to get Tyrion "off the hook" for killing his father. Perhaps GRRM would not have been willing to have Tyrion kill Tywin had GRRM not already decided to make Tyrion the son of Aerys. But I highly doubt that the motivation was come up with as a way to absolve Tyrion from killing Tywin. But I think you are correct that GRRM's willingness to have Tyrion kill Tywin could be seen as a clue that GRRM has not made Tywin as Tyrion's biological father.

I agree with your reasoning.  That plot element -- Tyrion killing Tywin -- probably evolved organically.  By my rather clumsy explanation I was trying to convey my impression that GRRM has psychologically shielded himself from his own hostile feelings towards his own biological father that he is working through by imagining such a patricide scenario-- by creating a fantasy involving non-biological relations.  A kind of emotional-distancing defense mechanism.  When something is too painful to face, it's often couched in other terms that are more palatable for the psyche to process.  Do you see what I'm getting at?  It's a rather obscure meta- point I'm making.

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Ironic, should A+J=T be true:

"winged lions"

Tyrion is the son of Aerys II and Jon Connington! 

Hi LM -- witty, erudite and irreverent as ever!  

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi LM -- witty, erudite and irreverent as ever!  

Happy New Year!

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Happy New Year!

You too -- can't believe I've been stuck in this rabbit-hole that long!

I initially joined after not having been able to resist the urge to vent about Littlefinger -- and now look at me...

[Jô Maltese]

On 04/01/2017 at 2:25 PM, ravenous reader said:

Ironic, should A+J=T be true:

 

Already noted in the hidden section of the OP

Happy New Year to all AJTers!

[UnmaskedLurker]

40 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Already noted in the hidden section of the OP

Happy New Year to all AJTers!

So many items have been added over time to the OP that I have even started to lose track of them all. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/1/2016 at 8:41 AM, Shmedricko said:

This point has been brought up a lot, but I've never actually seen all the relevant quotes put side by side, so in this post I'm attempting to do that. I've colour-coded similar words or descriptions which are shared in the accounts of both Tyrion's birth and the birth of a stillborn Targaryen. If there are any birth descriptions that I'm missing, let me know and I'll add them. Note, though, that I'm not including every mention of a Targaryen stillbirth or miscarriage, only the ones that are described in some fashion.

Edited to add: From The Sons of the Dragon:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

A couple of notes:

-The stillborn Targaryens are often described as "twisted". Although Tyrion isn't described as such in the passages about his birth (unless there's some I'm missing), he is referred to as "twisted" many times elsewhere in the text.

-The passage about Rhaenyra's stillbirth is a near-exact quote from The Princess and the Queen, but I included the version from TWOIAF because it mentions a dwarf, Mushroom, which might make it additionally relevant to AJT.

-I also wanted to stress this connection:

This fits right in with Maester Aemon's comment that "Dragons are neither male nor female [...] but now one and now the other", as well as the fact that the hermaphrodite Sweets has violet eyes. I mentioned these in conjunction with the rumors about Tyrion in this post, but at the time I wasn't aware of the quote about Maegor's children.

Interesting additions from The Sons of the Dragon. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

Such little things, she thought as she fed them by hand. or rather, tried to feed them, for the dragons would not eat. They would hiss and spit at each bloody morsel of horsemeat, steam rising from their nostrils, yet they would not take the food . . . until Dany recalled something Viserys had told her when they were children.

Only dragons and men eat cooked meat, he had said.

When she had her handmaids char the horsemeat black, the dragons ripped at it eagerly, their heads striking like snakes. So long as the meat was seared, they gulped down several times their own weight every day, and at last began to grow larger and stronger. 

Daenerys I, Clash 12

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A servant approached. "Bread," Tyrion told him, "and two of those little fish, and a mug of that good dark beer to wash them down. Oh, and some bacon. Burn it until it turns black." The man bowed and moved off. Tyrion turned back to his siblings. 

Tyrion I, Game 9