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Logan-First R Rated Wolverine Movie?


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Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I'm of the opinion that FF are a pretty lame bunch of superheroes and its very difficult to do them well,which is why they keep going down different paths each time. I actually in some ways like the hyper campy appeal of the earlier fox FF movies, I just wish they had doubled down on that instead.

They are kind of lame, but Marvel has done pretty solid work with their lamer or more obscure superheroes.  Honestly, they've done some of their best work with those characters, as they've given those directors a bit more freedom than for their main properties.

And again, I just really want to see Doom as the big bad in an Avengers movie.  

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Just now, briantw said:

They are kind of lame, but Marvel has done pretty solid work with their lamer or more obscure superheroes.  Honestly, they've done some of their best work with those characters, as they've given those directors a bit more freedom than for their main properties.

And again, I just really want to see Doom as the big bad in an Avengers movie.  

Maybe. I think Dr Strange is kind of a lame character, or at least it could be interesting a deeply dark psychedelic movie. I thought that movie was a bit of a flop though, and I'm not sure they really knew how to handle him as a character, instead just giving him Tony Stark's personality so they have that for when RDJ leaves his contract obligations. 

Initally I viewed Marvel as the risk takers, but actually if you look at it, their movies play incredibly safe with much of their properties, they only make the tiniest nods to genre storytelling before going back into their standard formula. I mean I really like pretty much all of their movies, but actually if you look at Fox, its clear that they are the ones putting their necks on the line with the properties.

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1 minute ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:



There is clearly a lot of conflict within the company, with those who have a genuine urge to go out and make different, interesting movies, and the money men who are desperate to not take risks and want to create a steady cash flow. 

the good news is that with Deadpool and Logan the two factors may align. Deadpool was their most successful film (even with the r-rating) and Apocalypse stuck to its namesake pulling in 50% less. than Deadpool and DOFP. The major concern is that they just look at it as R-rated equals successful and we get a New mutants film full of sex, swearing and violence.

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1 minute ago, red snow said:

the good news is that with Deadpool and Logan the two factors may align. Deadpool was their most successful film (even with the r-rating) and Apocalypse stuck to its namesake pulling in 50% less. than Deadpool and DOFP. The major concern is that they just look at it as R-rated equals successful and we get a New mutants film full of sex, swearing and violence.

Yeah those movies make me optimistic but in reality what tends to happen is that as soon as there is an unexpected hit the corporate suits take over because it becomes a priority for the company to keep that success going and suddenly you end up with less creative movies which just replay what came before. 

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7 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Maybe. I think Dr Strange is kind of a lame character, or at least it could be interesting a deeply dark psychedelic movie. I thought that movie was a bit of a flop though, and I'm not sure they really knew how to handle him as a character, instead just giving him Tony Stark's personality so they have that for when RDJ leaves his contract obligations. 

Initally I viewed Marvel as the risk takers, but actually if you look at it, their movies play incredibly safe with much of their properties, they only make the tiniest nods to genre storytelling before going back into their standard formula. I mean I really like pretty much all of their movies, but actually if you look at Fox, its clear that they are the ones putting their necks on the line with the properties.

The only risks Marvel have really taken is with the shared universe approach and by picking less obscure franchises to adapt eg Antman and GOTG. By the point of Dr Strange i think people trust the brand and go along. I'd argue that all their films have a template and that Starlord and Antman borrow as heavily from RDJR in quippage as Strange does in egomaniac.

To be honest when it comes to people wanting Marvel to have the X-men I think if they really sit and think about it the only obvious benefit is that Wolverine could be in the Avengers. In the comics the X-men have always existed largely in their own bubble - largely because it's a bit tricky how the Avengers and FF are embraced by the public while the X-men are hated.

 

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1 minute ago, red snow said:

The only risks Marvel have really taken is with the shared universe approach and by picking less obscure franchises to adapt eg Antman and GOTG. By the point of Dr Strange i think people trust the brand and go along. I'd argue that all their films have a template and that Starlord and Antman borrow as heavily from RDJR in quippage as Strange does in egomaniac.

To be honest when it comes to people wanting Marvel to have the X-men I think if they really sit and think about it the only obvious benefit is that Wolverine could be in the Avengers. In the comics the X-men have always existed largely in their own bubble - largely because it's a bit tricky how the Avengers and FF are embraced by the public while the X-men are hated.

I agree that their films largely follow a template, but it's a template that works.  I think people want the X-Men to go to Marvel mostly because Fox has been so inconsistent with the franchise, whereas Marvel's films have largely been pretty solid.  Even the worst Marvel films (Iron Man 3, mostly) have been watchable and halfway decent, whereas films like X-3 and Apocalypse (and the first Wolverine movie...seriously, fuck that shit) were abominations. 

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21 minutes ago, red snow said:

 

To be honest when it comes to people wanting Marvel to have the X-men I think if they really sit and think about it the only obvious benefit is that Wolverine could be in the Avengers. In the comics the X-men have always existed largely in their own bubble - largely because it's a bit tricky how the Avengers and FF are embraced by the public while the X-men are hated.

 

I also think that outside of a couple of characters (prof X, Wolverine, Magneto) they have never really gotten any of the characters right and haven't known how to really hit that balance of goofy and serious social commentary in the Xmen movies. Not sure Marvel would do it much better but Fox have rarely gotten to grips with the property. I really liked Colossus in Deadpool, possibly my favourite incarnation of an X-Man. 

I feel that they too often want to turn the X-Men into Harry Potter or teen-lit. 

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

I agree that their films largely follow a template, but it's a template that works.  I think people want the X-Men to go to Marvel mostly because Fox has been so inconsistent with the franchise, whereas Marvel's films have largely been pretty solid.  Even the worst Marvel films (Iron Man 3, mostly) have been watchable and halfway decent, whereas films like X-3 and Apocalypse (and the first Wolverine movie...seriously, fuck that shit) were abominations. 

I agree that Marvel is a safe bet but I guess Fox could just copy the template - it's not that tricky a one to imitate.

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I also think that outside of a couple of characters (prof X, Wolverine, Magneto) they have never really gotten any of the characters right and haven't known how to really hit that balance of goofy and serious social commentary in the Xmen movies. Not sure Marvel would do it much better but Fox have rarely gotten to grips with the property. I really liked Colossus in Deadpool, possibly my favourite incarnation of an X-Man. 

I feel that they too often want to turn the X-Men into Harry Potter or teen-lit. 

It's funny how the one weakest of Marvel is its villains and that Fox and Sony have an abundance of good ones we'd all love to see in the Marvel universe. Honestly, they could strike a deal just to use the villains and the MCU would be much richer for it. I really hope we'll get to see Osborn, Venom and Dr Octopus show up in the MCU proper. At the moment it seems more like Marvel just want Spidey but maybe after the Spidey film we'll see how the villains are incorporated.

I'd still argue the villains are a flaw in the MCU in the sense it's a problem with the studio/their template. I think they've sat down and decided it's more important to connect with the hero than the antagonist because they've all been pretty dire with the exception of Loki (and I sometimes think he shines because of the poor field there is to compare him to). Even weirder is the fact in almost every case they've had an excellent actor playing the villain. I'd agree that Dr Doom and Magneto are intrinsically better villains to work from but there's no excuse why they couldn't have made Ultron, Red Skull (who wasn't that bad) or the Mandarin good villains. Zemo almost worked except for his weird final act performance.

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3 hours ago, red snow said:

I agree that Marvel is a safe bet but I guess Fox could just copy the template - it's not that tricky a one to imitate.

It must be trickier than we think, as every DC movie now seems to be an absolute clusterfuck of bad writing and too many characters.  It's like they're trying desperately to follow the Marvel template to make an ungodly amount of money but have no idea what the fuck they're doing or who to put in charge of it all.

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This movie is awesome. No fancy tricks or reaching with big ideas, just pure good storytelling and action from start to finish.

 

 

9 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I'm of the opinion that FF are a pretty lame bunch of superheroes and its very difficult to do them well,which is why they keep going down different paths each time. I actually in some ways like the hyper campy appeal of the earlier fox FF movies, I just wish they had doubled down on that instead.


I'm not a huge fan of the FF, though mostly because I didn't grow up reading their stuff, but I wouldn't call them lame intrinsically. What I've read of Hickman's run is fantastic, for example.

I mean, The Incredibles is basically an FF movie and it's one of the best superhero movies ever.

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4 hours ago, briantw said:

It must be trickier than we think, as every DC movie now seems to be an absolute clusterfuck of bad writing and too many characters.  It's like they're trying desperately to follow the Marvel template to make an ungodly amount of money but have no idea what the fuck they're doing or who to put in charge of it all.

DC Stuff:

Spoiler

 

They aren't really trying to follow the mould though. Simplistically: Marvel go Fun, DC go Dark, Marvel started with solo films, DC did one film then a Justice League prelude, and a supervilain team up. The Marvel formula is a very familiar well defined 3 act structure, the DC films seem more convoluted.

I'm not one to defend the DC films as I haven't enjoyed one yet, but they aren't trying to copy the 'Marvel Formula,' beyond trying to have a shared universe.

I also think they've definitely had an awful lot of studio interference. I don't believe Suicide Squad was the film David Ayer signed on to make. Zac Snyder I am less sure about, but the email trailer segment of BvS reeked of interference.

 

 

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6 hours ago, briantw said:

It must be trickier than we think, as every DC movie now seems to be an absolute clusterfuck of bad writing and too many characters.  It's like they're trying desperately to follow the Marvel template to make an ungodly amount of money but have no idea what the fuck they're doing or who to put in charge of it all.

I agree with Blackbear in the sense WB aren't trying to be like Marvel - they are trying to make all the DC superheroes fit the Nolan (or worse) Frank Millar mould. A WB imitation of Marvel would have had a superman who is probably an awkward reporter who as superman is a wisecracking superhero. Thinking about it MCU doesn't really do dual personalities - most often there is no differentiation between super and civilian personalities (the acquisition of spidey may be their first opportunity to explore this)

All of the DC films, so far, have been on the "super gritty and miserable" side.

It's the same trap i fear for Fox thinking their treatment of Deadpool and Logan means all of their x-franchises should be the same.

Don't worry - I plan on watching the film next week and, as my comments on Fox in general may imply, I'm actually really wanting "logan" to be great. Hell, I wanted "the wolverine" to be great and think it was almost there (along with the title sequence to "origins"). Even if the film fails to deliver I think I could almost live with the trailers.

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Just got back from seeing it. Thought it was amazing. Forget about best X-Men film (which it is by far imo), it's one of the best comic movies in general. It's probably in the running with Sin City and The Dark Knight as my favorite. I have to give Hollywood major props on the quality of child actors they're finding recently. Stranger Things, the girl from The Nice Guys, and now Laura from Logan. She was sooo good.

Ngl I choked up a bit when she turned the cross into a X at the end.

Perfect.

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Agreed regarding the child actors, where are these kids coming from?  Must be some Julliard for 6 year olds around I haven't heard of, truly incredible talents.

I've seen Logan twice now, something I rarely do for films while they are in the theater.  It's the best super hero/comic film yet made IMO, Patrick Stewart was incredible, he just keeps getting better, and he was great back in Excalibur and on stage 30 years ago.

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The Dark Knight of X-Men franchise. Wolverine just works best as Rated- R which is why he wouldn't fit into MCU universe and their genre. They would have to make him less violent and not blood, gore, violent he should be. Deadpool to certain extent too is not fit for them. Not like it's a bad thing for MCU becaus their formla works, DC are trying to make everything dark and it's a not a good idea. Every movie and character should be accordingly done and not in same dark mode. Which is why MCU works better. Hope that FOX will do justice to their characters and their movies won't be Rated-R given their success.

To the movie.

Truth be told it's an amazing experience with flaws along the way. It's gritty, dark, emotional, depressing at times especially towards the end.But stil love the fact no matter in how much of shit they were in, they still fight. Charles' words to Logan about family, love, home... then Logan talking to X-Men 23 Laura realizing that he's dying and what it is like to have a family or closest to it. Her saying "daddy" was for some people a bit weird but it works. Also cross she made for him was pretty good touch. Wolverine was weapon X. I loved the part when Wolverine went full berserker mode on them and we see what an animal he is, rage, ferocity, beast. Even tho he couldn't much of a run but he still fight.

Props to Hugh for going with the best movie possible, Patrick Stewart played Charles Xavier brilliantly and with Charles' Alzheimer state truly convincing performance. Basically he killed bunch of X-Men and mutans in an accident when he had that seizure like in the motel. Also, liked the when Logan the real one told him it wasn't him who stabbed him.

People criticized Logan's clone X-24 but I think it was a good touch because only person who should kill Wolverine is Wolverine. Seeing that young Wolverine at his peak was truly amazing, what he can do. Logan faced his demons which is Wolverine in this mode. Also, nice that they didn't spoiled it in promos. Dafne did a realy good job, Not an easy job for a child actor to play alongside Hugh Jackman and Sir Patrick Stewart but she was amazing. Just by her facial expressions, body movement and eyes she conveyed emotions. It has that TLOU feeling to it or Unforgiven western type of movie. As Hugh said, it was one of their inspirations and inspiratio nalso for Old Man Logan comicbook series.

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I saw it, and by far, it was Fox's best Marvel movie. I loved how small it felt and want more films like it. With the X-Men continuity so fucking erratic, it's best to tell these slice of life-type stories to ignore what a cluster the bigger picture is.
 
Stewart and Jackman acted the shit out of these roles, and I don't blame them for wanting to walk away. Like Singer should've done with DoFP, they need to do here. They will never outdo this. That little girl they got as Laura? She is Eleven/Millie Bobby Brown-types of wonderful. That scene between Logan and her after the Urgent Care scene? Incredible.

I loved this movie. My only nitpick, I think, was including all the random kids at the end. At that point, the movie started to feel Singer-ish. I just didn't like how all of these characters we had no attachment to just showed up, blowing shit up...this ain't your movie, brats. Kidding...kind of. I was a little geeked to see Rictor, though.

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13 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

The Dark Knight of X-Men franchise. Wolverine just works best as Rated- R which is why he wouldn't fit into MCU universe and their genre. They would have to make him less violent and not blood, gore, violent he should be. Deadpool to certain extent too is not fit for them. Not like it's a bad thing for MCU becaus their formla works, DC are trying to make everything dark and it's a not a good idea. Every movie and character should be accordingly done and not in same dark mode. Which is why MCU works better. Hope that FOX will do justice to their characters and their movies won't be Rated-R given their success.

To the movie.

 

  Hide contents

Also cross she made for him was pretty good touch. Wolverine was weapon X.

 


Err, that's not why she did it.

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I tried to go into this film with few expectations, but I failed. Some of those expectations were met and others weren't. Similar to the Lego Batman Movie, I'm sure I'll enjoy Logan more on a second viewing once I know what to expect. 

The Good

* Performances! These are the best performances of any X-Men film yet, save maybe Deadpool. Patrick Stewart owns the 2017 Best Supporting Actor Oscar as far as I'm concerned. The rest of the cast was also on point--Stephen Merchant's Caliban and Boyd Holbrook's Pierce especially. And finally, this girl playing Laura/X-23 gave a truly honest and sincere performance of rage, pain, and vulnerability. 

* The action! Finally, a Wolverine film that has the fight scenes I’ve been waiting to see since I started reading Wolverine comics back in junior high school. Even though there was yet another battle in the woods (it’s basically an Wolverine trope at this point) I still thoroughly enjoyed the full on Wolvie rage. Some of the X-23 fights were cut a bit too much, but I give that a pass as I’m sure most of her stuff was a mix of stunts and CGI.

* Representation of the “not too distant future” in 2029. Subtle but impactful notes were put into the script to remind the audience this wasn’t present day.

* And finally, something important the filmmakers paid homage to from the comics…

 

was they basically kept Logan’s (most recent) death the same as it was the comics. In the comics a vat of melted adamantium is poured over Logan and it hardens in this statuesque pose on a rooftop as the sun sets. What really kills Logan in the film isn’t X-24, but it’s the adamantium wearing down his healing factor to the point he’s mortal. So the adamantium kills him from the inside out in the film and not from the outside in like the comics. I see what you did there screenwriters, and I like it!

Speaking of death scenes, that burial of Xavier had me misty eyed. It goes back to the performances compliment, but this may’ve been Jackman’s best scene. He went from understated and vulnerable to full on shovel rage. It was a very well done scene.

 

Logan’s final words were also pretty damned perfect. I wanna say I remember another character using those as final words, but until someone proves that, I’ll give it to Logan.

 

The Bad

* Overly complex plot! If you want to make a superhero Western mash-up, then keep the plot simple. There was way too much new info to process, and this leads me to my second criticism…

* Too many important plot points are left to minimal exposition or just plain left unexplained. Granted, if this was a stand alone film then the minimal explanations would be great service to the pacing of the plot. However, that’s not the case here! LOGAN is in a universe with nine previous fucking films built behind it. And LOGAN implies way too much with no explanation. These giant plot points (Yes, plural.) that were left unexplained became extremely distracting for me. Here is a list:

 

1.Wait, why are there no new mutants born in the last, what’d Xavier say, 25 years? Please, ‘splain dat to me again Dr. Rice!?!?

2. WTF happened “a year ago” with Charles in Westchester and which X-Men did he kill? The radio report made it sound like Xavier killed seven X-Men. Who?!? How? Why is implied, but the rest needed a flashback.

3. Why is it Dr. Rice and not Mr. Sinister the main behind the scenes pulling the strings? I get Rice has ties to the Weapon X project, but Age of Apocalypse and Bryan Singer told us we’d have fucking Mr. Sinister! http://collider.com/wolverine-3-mister-sinister-bryan-singer/ [My guess is he was supposed to be the big bad Wolvie fights to the death, but they thought it’d be all symbolic” if the only thing that could kill Wolverine was another Wolverine, hence X-24.

4. When, how, and why did the X-Men go from hated and feared mutant scum to beloved superheroes like the Avengers? Why are there X-Men comics and toys in this universe now?

5. What’s Eden and who runs it? Why is Eden even necessary if the X-Men made mutants viewed as superheroes in this world!?!? And if these kids aren’t “natural mutants” what makes Eden so eager to take these kids in? Yeah, just Eden in general is a big fucking question mark.

 

And some less crucial points that still irked me:

6. Why are Dr. Rice & the Reevers only in pursuit of Laura? Why not the other escaped kids?

7. Speaking of which, who got those other X-23 kids to the rendezvous point in North Dakota? Presumably the other nurses, but where are they?

8. How the hell did Laura get Logan in to the hospital after Xavier’s burial? Please tell me there’s not a dead fisherman and his dog back by that pond/lake! “What’s in the box, Laura? What’s in the boooox?!?”

9. Why did Logan ask Caliban to help with Xavier? And why is he a complete 180 from the Caliban in Age of Apocalypse?

10. How do Dr. Rice & co. know where Logan and Xavier are hiding but not the US government? You’d think after what’s implied to have happened in Westchester that Xavier be on their most wanted list.

11. How are those X-23 kids gonna be on a time crunch to cross the border to Eden but have enough time to move and bury Logan? Shouldn’t other government agencies still have been in pursuit of them after the first wave was wiped out? 

 

The Ugly

* The heavy handed symbolism.

Turning that cross into an X at the end should’ve been a moving moment, but I was so burned out on the heavy handed symbolism with Shane that it just came off as so utterly corny to me. Ditto for Laura reciting that Shane monologue at Logan’s grave. This was an opportunity for some great original writing, but instead they just cribbed it. Not cool. After nine movies with this character he deserved his own memorable send off. Came across as lazy writing to me. [But Logan’s actual final words, as I mentioned earlier, were near perfect.

 

And the other bit of heavy handed symbolism was X-24. I mean, *ugh* wasn’t the adamantium poisoning enough to get across Logan is his own worst enemy? I think a character may have even spoken those exact words in the film. So why did Mangold feel the need to literally clone Logan and have him fight “himself” to get that point across? *sigh* It just felt like another missed opportunity for originality.

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