Lee-Sensei

Should the Mountain Clans get the Vale?

60 posts in this topic

41 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The Mountain Clans were mentioned in the title.

Yes, you are correct. My mistake.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's so great about the current Royces?

Historical Royces and Waymar aside, if "the Royces" get the Vale right now, Yohn would be the Lord Paramount yeah?

I mean I don't have anything against Bronze Yohn I guess but I see no reason why some of yall seem to like so much?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think the rulers of the Vale bear some of the blame for the current situation with the Mountain Clans. After all, the North also has Mountain Clans, but they're currently marching with Stannis to save the Ned's little girl, even though in the past Winterfell has taken children as wards/hostages. The Northern Mountain Clans have been treated with respect, whereas the Vale Mountain Clans have not, similar to the Wildings. 

Does this mean the Mountain Clans "deserve" the Vale? No, but a member of the Clans taking over the Vale may not be entirely out of the question either. Tyrion did arm them after all, and they haven't been seen on-page since their expulsion from King's Landing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Timett and the burned men will take it by force and then we will find out he's the rightful heir after Robin. I suspect he will then make a awful mess of it, but I believe Timett will rule for awhile. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I do think the rulers of the Vale bear some of the blame for the current situation with the Mountain Clans. After all, the North also has Mountain Clans, but they're currently marching with Stannis to save the Ned's little girl, even though in the past Winterfell has taken children as wards/hostages. The Northern Mountain Clans have been treated with respect, whereas the Vale Mountain Clans have not, similar to the Wildings. 

Does this mean the Mountain Clans "deserve" the Vale? No, but a member of the Clans taking over the Vale may not be entirely out of the question either. Tyrion did arm them after all, and they haven't been seen on-page since their expulsion from King's Landing.

You have to give respect to get respect. They're just a bunch of filthy, stupid rapists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You have to give respect to get respect. They're just a bunch of filthy, stupid rapists.

Why did you start a discussion thread if you don't want to participate in an actual discussion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Why did you start a discussion thread if you don't want to participate in an actual discussion?

Exactly my thoughts.

I think there is a reason why out of all major lords of the Vale Bronze Yohn is not at the Gates of the Moon. Once Mountain Clans take over the Vale, Yohn Royce will marry his widowed daughter Ysilla to Timmett, which will solidify all claims to the rulership of the Vale in one wedding: House Royce's claim as Bronze Kings, mountain clans finally getting their homes back from the Andals, and also Andal claim of Timmett through his Arryn mother. Not to mention that Timmett will conquer the Vale in the first place, and no one will be able to do squat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Why did you start a discussion thread if you don't want to participate in an actual discussion?

To get other peoples oppinions... I'm a little embarassed that I have to explain this to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Scorpion92 said:

Exactly my thoughts.

I think there is a reason why out of all major lords of the Vale Bronze Yohn is not at the Gates of the Moon. Once Mountain Clans take over the Vale, Yohn Royce will marry his widowed daughter Ysilla to Timmett, which will solidify all claims to the rulership of the Vale in one wedding: House Royce's claim as Bronze Kings, mountain clans finally getting their homes back from the Andals, and also Andal claim of Timmett through his Arryn mother. Not to mention that Timmett will conquer the Vale in the first place, and no one will be able to do squat.

That's quite the imagination. Timmett and what army? If he is the son of an Arryn, he's a bastard, Yohn Royce is loyal to the Arryns and the Mountain Clans are despised for very understandable reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The mountain clans haven't the forces to conquer shit. Timmett could raise Sharra and Lysa Arryn from the dead and marry the both of them and Vale wouldn't recognise any bullshit claim of his.

The clans are simply a lesson for Tyrion. He thinks during his trial when did he piss so many people off? There's a lesson there for the leaning, but he's not ready and nor is it useful to him right now, too busy playing a victim card "it's because I'm a dwarf, I never had a chance, daddy didn't love me, woe is me blah blah I'm gonna go drink myself to daeth and rape a bitch". When he gets back to his old self, gets his dragon and starts making moves he's going to learn the lessons of his ultimately failed time as Hand, where he did useful shit but turned everyone he would need against him. And the lesson here is, while the mountain clans had uses, ultimately keeping savages around him in KL was fucking terrible PR. But you know what's great PR? Flying to mountains and accepting either the surrender of the heathen clans that are terrorising the Vale in the name of the Faith and crown, or simply roasting the fuck out of them.

It's a Tywin lesson, use them while they have use, and when their use runs out, when they become a liability, take advantage from their demise. As Tywin did with the clans and as he planned to do with Gregor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That's quite the imagination. Timmett and what army? If he is the son of an Arryn, he's a bastard, Yohn Royce is loyal to the Arryns and the Mountain Clans are despised for very understandable reasons.

Timmett and AT LEAST 3000 mountain clan members armed with Lannister steel who grow bolder in their raids and attacks.

How do you know Timmett is a bastard? 

Yohn Royce is loyal to Yohn Royce.

Well. tough shit, they will have to get used to it once Timmett attacks and conquers Gates of the Moon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

Timmett and AT LEAST 3000 mountain clan members armed with Lannister steel who grow bolder in their raids and attacks.

Why at least? How do you know the Mountain Clan members did not demand extra armour?

How do you know that all the equipment even made it back to the Vale considering the losses the Mountain Clan members seemed to have taken in both the Battle of the Fords and the Blackwater.

5 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

How do you know Timmett is a bastard? 

How do you know that the Arryn girl who went missing even survived? That they dis not feed her to the goats? Or rape and torture her to death? That she did not escape? Or that she has children? or even sons? Or even sons of the same age as Timett?

There is absolutely no indication that there is any connection between Timett and the missing Arryn girl beyond the mention that she was taken by Burned Men and Timett is a burned man.

5 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

Yohn Royce is loyal to Yohn Royce.

He seems pretty loyal to the Arryns as well.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why at least? How do you know the Mountain Clan members did not demand extra armour?

How do you know that all the equipment even made it back to the Vale considering the losses the Mountain Clan members seemed to have taken in both the Battle of the Fords and the Blackwater.

How do you know that the Arryn girl who went missing even survived? That they dis not feed her to the goats? Or rape and torture her to death? That she did not escape? Or that she has children? or even sons? Or even sons of the same age as Timett?

There is absolutely no indication that there is any connection between Timett and the missing Arryn girl beyond the mention that she was taken by Burned Men and Timett is a burned man.

He seems pretty loyal to the Arryns as well.

 

If the raids and attacks in the Vale grew bolder and more dangerous it means the steel DID find the hands of the mountain clans there, otherwise, they would not dare such acts. 

Because what is the point mentioning all these little details if they are not going to come up in the future? Littlefinger out of all people mentioning this little detail about Arryn succession should make us pause at least a little.

The only TWO major things we know of Burned Men are this: Timmett is their leader and feared throughout not only his clan, but other clans as well. And second, Arryn girl got kidnapped by Burned Men. I mean, GRRM does not need to show us a flashback or a scene of this kidnapping or her conceiving a child with Timmett to get us the point, he is leaving us these bread crumbs.

I will see about his loyalty when there is a new sheriff in the town and if he would like to defend a family which cast down his own as rightful rulers of the Vale. There is a reason Yohn Royce wears that bronze armor, they are Bronze Kings of the Vale. Besides, he is in Runestone now and far away from Vale politics. If the mountain clans attack the Gates of the Moon it will take awhile for Yohn Royce to come help Arryns, and by the time he arrives it might be too late.

Anyways, no point of arguing with you guys here as I feel it will not be productive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't matter if he succeeds in taking the gates, all that achieves is him getting besieged by 30k men in a month or two. The only way Timmett is accepted as ruler in the Vale is if he is backed by dragon flame or another army who actually come and help drive the whole of the Vale to their knees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it will be particularly relevant whether or not Timmett is the rightful heir or not. If he claims to be, the rest of the Vale will just ignore him; even he can prove it, they will do all they can to stop a Mountain Clansman becoming their lord. After that he would need to use force to become lord, at which point whether he is the rightful ruler or not becomes irrelevant, for that is not what is maintaining him in power.

Besides GRRM is hardly the type to make him succeed just because he is the rightful heir.

Edited by Sept Sev

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

It doesn't matter if he succeeds in taking the gates, all that achieves is him getting besieged by 30k men in a month or two. The only way Timmett is accepted as ruler in the Vale is if he is backed by dragon flame or another army who actually come and help drive the whole of the Vale to their knees.

Those 30-40k men will only lay siege if there are nobles, lords and ladies, to summon them to march towards the mountains, into the passes and siege during a harsh winter. Scorpion92 believes like I theorize that the mountain clans will attack after the Gates of the Moon are largely destroyed and the Bloody Gate damaged by an avalanche. There won't be an Eyrie, little of the Gates of the Moon left (but large food stores). Except for Bronze Yohn, most of the nobility shows up at the Gates - all those knights vying for a position with SR, their parents, wives, etc...Imagine a natural disaster on that spot killing many. Well, several houses might even go straightforwardly extinct. If there are no Lords and Ladies to call for young men to pick up the weapons, and there are no knights to lead the armies.... what chances are there even that there will be an army? Especially when the mountain clans have no need to penetrate the Vale any further, and won't be bothering the eastern region of the Vale, because they can winter on the largest food stock of whole Westeros: LF's stored food?

Edited by sweetsunray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best thing I can say about the Mountain clans is they're entertaining to read about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Change as in stop raping, stealing and murdering.

I know what you meant but my point is their culture hasnt adapted because of the lack of advancement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole world has been stuck in time for millennia, not just the mountain clans. It´s quite hypocritical to act like they´re any worse than the dothraki or ironbon. Even "civilized" cultures rape, pillage and murder. Feudal society in and of itself is not exactly progressive either. The fact that the clans are allowed to live like this in the middle of westeros goes to show how poorly the realm has been dealing with them.

Nevertheless they should not, and will not, get the vale. This would be a step backwards in social development and I don´t see that happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

This would be a step backwards in social development and I don´t see that happening.

Steps back in social development happen all the time in the real world, and in Planetos (fall of Rome, fall of Valyria).

More generally, I'm surprised that the word "deserves" enters into a debate about these books. I've seen little evidence of anyone getting what they "deserve" good or bad, in the series. It's almost always the other way around. Same in real life really. 

Also, is there any culture in the books that doesn't contain rapists? The 7K society institutionalises rape in its political system of arranged marriages, and even technically "illegal" rape is quite openly used as a weapon of war. Wildlings (stealing brides), Dothraki (slavery), the slave states in the Free Cities and Slavers' Bay (slavery - there's a whole city dedicated to the production of sex slaves), Iron Islands (salt wives). 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now