LugaJetboyGirl-irra

Urban Fantasy/Paranormal Romance v. 3.0

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Just as an aside, what is the general opinion regarding the Mercy Thompson books here? I started the first one but did not like it.

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I haven't read them, but finding out from the TvTropes page that as a werecoyote Mercy is weaker than basically everyone around her, including her love interest, isn't making me want to.

That time when I flipped through the opening of one of the more recent Mercy books and the first mention of a female werewolf is someone who supposedly hates her because the boss is banging Mercy instead of her didn't help either.  My ideal gender dynamics are a touch more progressive than those in your average outlaw motorcycle club.

Also, for a genre whose covers almost universally depict a hot young brunette in tight pants and tank top, I feel like the covers are almost egregiously bad.  I'm disregarding out and out paranormal romance, although I guess there's also the UF covers of hot chicks wearing dominatrix outfits (looking at you, Kim Harrison).

Edited by Mars447

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Haha, outlaw motorcycle club! You hit on the head there why I tend to dislike a lot of this kind of stuff. 

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9 hours ago, Mars447 said:

My ideal gender dynamics are a touch more progressive than those in your average outlaw motorcycle club.

Also, for a genre whose covers almost universally depict a hot young brunette in tight pants and tank top, I feel like the covers are almost egregiously bad.  I'm disregarding out and out paranormal romance, although I guess there's also the UF covers of hot chicks wearing dominatrix outfits (looking at you, Kim Harrison).

I'd say they're right there in the same vein as Kim Harrison and Ilona Andrews, though I'd really like to believe the Ilona Andrews books are slightly better (have been told by those in this thread I am wrong lol).  But at least it's not the Vampire Diaries or the Black Dagger Brotherhood.

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19 hours ago, LugaJetboyGirl-irra said:

Yeah, the claiming-the-city is nothing new. Kate Griffin did it several years ago with Matthew Swift. It basically sets up a magical connection between the character and the city as a whole.

Yeah, I figured as much, but I was hoping the stories would have less similarities, not more... too bad.

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1 hour ago, Mandy said:

I'd say they're right there in the same vein as Kim Harrison and Ilona Andrews, though I'd really like to believe the Ilona Andrews books are slightly better (have been told by those in this thread I am wrong lol).  But at least it's not the Vampire Diaries or the Black Dagger Brotherhood.

I feel like Kate Daniels in particular is above par as far as most urban fantasy goes.  Kate and Curran's relationship is pretty equal as far as UF goes, and female characters are pretty well represented among main, supporting, and redshirt tiers.  There's that idiocy about how shapeshifter cultural norms make invading boundaries and pulling romantic comedy bullshit an integral part of shapeshifter courting.  Breaking into the house of the woman you like and watching her sleep is Twilight levels of creepy, even if stealing her snack food while doing so takes some of the edge off.

Kate Daniels is no Pax Arcana  though.  Sig is awesome.

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8 hours ago, Mars447 said:

I feel like Kate Daniels in particular is above par as far as most urban fantasy goes.  Kate and Curran's relationship is pretty equal as far as UF goes, and female characters are pretty well represented among main, supporting, and redshirt tiers.  There's that idiocy about how shapeshifter cultural norms make invading boundaries and pulling romantic comedy bullshit an integral part of shapeshifter courting.  Breaking into the house of the woman you like and watching her sleep is Twilight levels of creepy, even if stealing her snack food while doing so takes some of the edge off.

Kate Daniels is no Pax Arcana  though.  Sig is awesome.

I would say Kate Daniels is above par. The home invasion you mentioned cuts both ways, so while strange, it is equal

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1 hour ago, Andorion said:

I would say Kate Daniels is above par. The home invasion you mentioned cuts both ways, so while strange, it is equal

Yeah, but subjectively I feel like a big guy breaking into some woman's home just to watch her sleep to be much worse and more violating than that woman breaking into the guy's castle and wrecking his weight bench.  The latter is wacky (criminal charge incurring) hijinks, the former is genuinely creepy Twilight BS.

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1 hour ago, Mars447 said:

Yeah, but subjectively I feel like a big guy breaking into some woman's home just to watch her sleep to be much worse and more violating than that woman breaking into the guy's castle and wrecking his weight bench.  The latter is wacky (criminal charge incurring) hijinks, the former is genuinely creepy Twilight BS.

Except in case of shapeshifters gender does not really equate to physical prowess. A female shapeshifter in warrior form is probably just as deadly (Andrea, Aunt B ) and in some cases more deadly. A lot of the normal gender dynamics and behavioural rules don't hold true in the universe. 

Also this issue is tackled in a side plot.

 

Potential Spoilers (I don't remember which book)


 

Spoiler

 

The wolves make Kate judge a case where a male shapeshifter had broken into a female's room when she had no interest in him and she shot him multiple times. Kate asked the male why she should not have him executed. 


 

 

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Just read the prequel Dorina Barsarab short story, Zombie Bite.  It's pretty good. Dory and Kit meet for the first time and beat the ever loving shit out of each other all over New Orleans.  Dory actually comes off as more of a badass here than she does in some of her books.

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13 hours ago, Andorion said:

Except in case of shapeshifters gender does not really equate to physical prowess. A female shapeshifter in warrior form is probably just as deadly (Andrea, Aunt B ) and in some cases more deadly. A lot of the normal gender dynamics and behavioural rules don't hold true in the universe. 

Also this issue is tackled in a side plot.

 

Potential Spoilers (I don't remember which book)


 

  Hide contents

 

The wolves make Kate judge a case where a male shapeshifter had broken into a female's room when she had no interest in him and she shot him multiple times. Kate asked the male why she should not have him executed. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep - I thought of this as well.  One of the wolves who doesn't like Kate forces Kate to make a public judgment on the case because she KNOWS Kate and Curran also took part in the same kind of shenanigans.  To be fair, Curran and Kate both do so only after being reasonably sure the other person was interested.  And yeah, Kate tells the dude he was being creepy and that it's not ok.

I love these books.  What can I say.

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12 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

If you guys are trying to get me to read this Kate Daniels thing...it is not working. :P

You've already said you won't take recommendations, so I don't know what you are talking about :P

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On 10/03/2016 at 6:59 PM, Mars447 said:

I feel like Kate Daniels in particular is above par as far as most urban fantasy goes.  Kate and Curran's relationship is pretty equal as far as UF goes, and female characters are pretty well represented among main, supporting, and redshirt tiers.  There's that idiocy about how shapeshifter cultural norms make invading boundaries and pulling romantic comedy bullshit an integral part of shapeshifter courting.  Breaking into the house of the woman you like and watching her sleep is Twilight levels of creepy, even if stealing her snack food while doing so takes some of the edge off.

Kate Daniels is no Pax Arcana  though.  Sig is awesome.

The main problems with Kate Daniels is that it is both extremely heteronormative and that it has some pretty dull internalised sexism. It's kinda...second wave feminist in that regard? Like, women are just as kick-ass as the men, they have to be just as tough, or tougher, they never cry or show much of any softer emotion (not that the dudes do either, cos their version of masculinity does not allow it). While also totally denigrating anything feminine and offending male characters with comparing them to women.

I can live with the first part, since the deviations from that norm is almost useless to try and find cos they are rarer than pigshit, but the second... you know, it's pretty simple stuff. It just jars when you have a female character using stuff like "cry like a girl" to bring a male character down. Like yeah, female character just made herself a unique snowflake woman, belittled her entire gender and also made a totally useless sexist remark. Whoop-tee-doo.

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3 hours ago, Lyanna Stark said:

The main problems with Kate Daniels is that it is both extremely heteronormative and that it has some pretty dull internalised sexism. It's kinda...second wave feminist in that regard? Like, women are just as kick-ass as the men, they have to be just as tough, or tougher, they never cry or show much of any softer emotion (not that the dudes do either, cos their version of masculinity does not allow it). While also totally denigrating anything feminine and offending male characters with comparing them to women.

I can live with the first part, since the deviations from that norm is almost useless to try and find cos they are rarer than pigshit, but the second... you know, it's pretty simple stuff. It just jars when you have a female character using stuff like "cry like a girl" to bring a male character down. Like yeah, female character just made herself a unique snowflake woman, belittled her entire gender and also made a totally useless sexist remark. Whoop-tee-doo.

The first trope - kickass female does make for extremely entertaining reads though (Kate stabbing people with Slayer is one of the main reasons I love these books)

As for the second one, I can't of the top of my head think of an example of this happening. 

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4 hours ago, Lyanna Stark said:

The main problems with Kate Daniels is that it is both extremely heteronormative and that it has some pretty dull internalised sexism. It's kinda...second wave feminist in that regard? Like, women are just as kick-ass as the men, they have to be just as tough, or tougher, they never cry or show much of any softer emotion (not that the dudes do either, cos their version of masculinity does not allow it). While also totally denigrating anything feminine and offending male characters with comparing them to women.

I can live with the first part, since the deviations from that norm is almost useless to try and find cos they are rarer than pigshit, but the second... you know, it's pretty simple stuff. It just jars when you have a female character using stuff like "cry like a girl" to bring a male character down. Like yeah, female character just made herself a unique snowflake woman, belittled her entire gender and also made a totally useless sexist remark. Whoop-tee-doo.

46 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

But she just gave you an example of it happening...

I Control+Fed through all of my ebook copies of the series, and I can find precisely zero examples of the phrase "like a girl" in any of them.  So, it's not actually an example.

Anyways, I prefer kickass chicks who can beat everyone up to weak female characters who need to rely on the men in their lives to get them out of trouble.  Am I sexist?

 

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I was asking for a specific example of the trope: As in X tells Y in book A, like that.

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On 3/11/2016 at 8:49 PM, Mars447 said:

I Control+Fed through all of my ebook copies of the series, and I can find precisely zero examples of the phrase "like a girl" in any of them.  So, it's not actually an example.

Anyways, I prefer kickass chicks who can beat everyone up to weak female characters who need to rely on the men in their lives to get them out of trouble.  Am I sexist?

 

I don't think I've read a UF novel where it's not one or the other and I also prefer the kickass female to a dependant one. In real life, yeah, this isn't necessary since life isn't a fantasy novel. I also like the super smart females who are able to out think their opponent. 

 

I'd like to hear a specific example of the kind of internalized sexism mentioned, because I can't think of one either and I've read the series probably 3-4 times, fully. If I do another reread I will be on the hunt and report what I find!! However, I am sensitive to that kind of thing, so I'm surprised it's mentioned. I either glossed over it or didn't see it. I think I've seen this kind of internalized sexism in the Mercy Thompson novels, however.

Edited by Mandy

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On 12/03/2016 at 3:49 AM, Mars447 said:

Anyways, I prefer kickass chicks who can beat everyone up to weak female characters who need to rely on the men in their lives to get them out of trouble.  Am I sexist?

 

Way too complicated a question to ask like that without giving you a ten page essay on how our culture devalues femininity. If you are interested for real and not just asking it as a rhetorical question, then read "Whipping Girl" by Serano. It lays it out clearly.

4 hours ago, Mandy said:

I'd like to hear a specific example of the kind of internalized sexism mentioned, because I can't think of one either and I've read the series probably 3-4 times, fully. If I do another reread I will be on the hunt and report what I find!! However, I am sensitive to that kind of thing, so I'm surprised it's mentioned. I either glossed over it or didn't see it. I think I've seen this kind of internalized sexism in the Mercy Thompson novels, however.

Kate Daniels are definitely not among the worse examples in the genre by far, also agreed on Mercy Thompson (from what I have read of it, which is not a lot since I cba with it).

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