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Batman and Superman IV: "Do you bleed?" "Only on the home release..." (Now with SPOILERS)


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11 hours ago, dooog said:

I must admit i'm quite relieved this was a box office failure. Looks like it will be roughly around $800m which is a very slim profit. Though considering it features 2 of the most loved superhero characters of all time it was always going to make that gross on reputation alone. There are far too many sloppily-written, noisy and downright moronic movies making crap-tonnes of money feeding into a myth that blockbusters shouldn't, or don't need to have a bit of thought put into them. Hopefully Michael Bay's future tripe also falls by the wayside

I'm not sure this will change things. There are too many markets which hold up crappy franchises and keep them from being failures. You can create an amazing, clever, thoughtful movie, but it won't make money if it doesn't translate well into the foreign markets. So really you have to keep it broad, a bit stupid, and sell it on loud action and knowledge of existing franchises.

Its a sad time. But I think the era of the movie is coming to an end, we are living in the age of streaming and tv shows and long form storytelling. 

Producers will go on to take less and less risks, and good quality blockbusters will maybe become even rarer. Movies have to make a greater number on their profit margins to do well these days, and the DVD market has disappeared. So you are relying on tentpole 'event' movies to pull people to theatres. Being a 'good movie' doesn't always achieve that. 

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Warner Bros. is considering releasing the R rated version, originally intended for home release only, to theaters in the hopes of upping their take. "You guys liked Deadpool because it was R rated, right?"

WB is apparently shocked by both the critical reception and the plummeting box office, they thought they had a good movie. I think they have staked too much on this to make any massive improvements in the near future.

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Let's be honest here. Who in their right mind would annonced a rated-R version of a movie with 20-30 minutes of additional footage 2-3 weeks before the theatrical release ?! 

 

Not saying it's the reason they won't make a billion, but some of my friends who wanted to see the movie no matter what at first decided to wait for that cut.

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On 5/04/2016 at 8:56 AM, williamjm said:

I think they did need to work a bit harder establishing why Batman is so focused on killing Superman, I think the film makes a reasonable argument for why Bruce might want to be prepared to fight him if it becomes necessary, but it seems a bit of a leap to go from there to actually putting the plan into action.

Yeah, that's a pretty fundamental flaw at the heart of the film. I enjoyed Man of Steel a lot more than I'd expected, but this one was rather awful in most respects. In principle, addressing what people would really think of having a god roaming the planet is a great idea, but I don't think Snyder really knew what to do with it. And Lex attempted to frame Superman for killing a bunch of probably-terrorists by shooting them?!? With special unique bullets that lead straight back to LexCorp, but have no obvious advantages over regular bullets?

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22 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Maybe the parts that were cut to fit the PG13 rating were the reason that the movie felt poorly edited at some parts.

Unless all the useful exposition or scenes with the characters interacting (I swear they spent most of the film in isolation from each other) happened to have them swearing, partially naked or bleeding I can't see how the R rated version can rescue those problems. If it was chopped up for a convenient run time there is more hope it can be fixed.

 

 

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On 12/04/2016 at 0:49 AM, Bastard of Boston said:

My reply to this got lost somehow.

Anyhow I'm pleased to hear there's a batfleck film coming out (especially if Afleck is directing). The weird thing about the film was that it actually succeeded in the sense it made me want to see solo films of the characters. Batman and wonder woman were great (the shameless teases for the others had me at least curious) and I thought "shame they are wasted in this film". Superman is harder because he is so far removed from the Superman I know it's hard to like him. Although I feel like in this outing he was a good person and I just felt sorry for him having to live in such a miserable world where everyone hates him.

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1 hour ago, Red Tiger said:

Affleck is a very good director, this movie will not be ass like BvS.

AFAIK, he's directed only two feature films: Argo, which is admittedly great, and The Town, which is very good up till the last ten minutes when it cops out completely and stops making sense.

(Checking out IMDb, they list another 2007 film, Gone Baby Gone, which I haven't seen.)

It feels a bit premature to be calling him a 'very good director' IMO: certainly, he's got good potential as a director, but it feels premature to be citing his directorial skill as a reason for confidence in the solo Batman film.

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If you watch Gone Baby Gone, you'll find 2/3 of his directed films are great, with 1/3 being really good.

Now, I don't chalk him up to "great director" status like Hitchcock, Spielberg, etc, but the man has serious talent behind the camera.

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3 hours ago, mormont said:

AFAIK, he's directed only two feature films: Argo, which is admittedly great, and The Town, which is very good up till the last ten minutes when it cops out completely and stops making sense.

(Checking out IMDb, they list another 2007 film, Gone Baby Gone, which I haven't seen.)

It feels a bit premature to be calling him a 'very good director' IMO: certainly, he's got good potential as a director, but it feels premature to be citing his directorial skill as a reason for confidence in the solo Batman film.

Its cool that you think this way, but I did see Gone Baby Gone as well and those 3 films do make him a very good director, in my eyes.

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It's Man of Steel 2.0 to me. Not a bad concept, with some pretty great action scenes and decent writing across the board, but so dour and humorless that it drags the entire thing down. I don't mean they have to copy the Avengers and have a quip each five seconds Whedon style, but some self-awareness and comedy would do the film good much.

I liked Wonder Woman, and the Batfleck is actually pretty decent. even if I think they should have explained why he's Ok with killing people. Calvill looks the part but never reaches any height (probably because Supes himself is a boring character, but that's just IMO), Doomsday was as boring as monsters get, and Lex... eh, I thought they let Eisenberg run too wild. At some point it was hard to reconcile the twitchy nerd with the megalomaniacal supervillain.

It also felt like a pretty shameless advertisement for their future films. "Oh look, Wonder Woman is cool, don't you want her to have her own movie?" ''Oh look at these camoes by three people who will totally be in a future film! just wait!'' and of course the ending which is just laughably unbelievable. Superman has about as much chances to stay dead in this universe as he did in the comics, IE none. Who do they think will be fooled?

 

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Saw it on the weekend. Really liked it, and I'm really enjoying where DC are going with the franchise. Sure, it has some holes and I would have liked Luther to have had a plan that didn't involve almost certain jail time. But overall, I found it really enjoyable. I like it dark. I like it brooding. I like it asking real questions.

Affleck and Irons were fantastic, as was the new Wayne manor. Bruce Wayne has been fighting crime for 20 years. Robin is turned, Catwoman might be dead, other allies have clearly been lost or turned. And Gotham is still synonymous with crime wave. What Wayne is seeing in the news, in the fight at Metropolis, with what has happened over 20 years in Gotham, with the vision and the power or superman that there was a real case to stop superman. Superman’s own edict actually forced him into a position where if he was going to stop Superman, it had to be now. There would be no second chances, and he would not allowed to continue as the Batman. But the Martha comment and Lois’s reaction made him realise that superman is part of this world, not just an alien making changes and ultimatums at will. I want to see more of this portrayal of Batman, and would love prequels.

I liked the portrayal of questions around how the world would react to Superman. Because it would be a huge split, and there would be questions and change. I liked how Clark had to think about how what he does effects the world. That saving one farm can destroy another. Superman’s reference to Batman being “right” made sense. Batman plays outside the law and in disguise – and it protects his family (well, Alfred). Superman’s good deeds led Lois and then the world back to Smallville. Lex figuring out who he was (especially given the military knows) isn’t a big leap. And now his mother was taken. So he could see Batman’s approach was right. And given Lex’s actions, maybe he had more sympathy for an approach of targeting the criminals rather than saving the victims.

The entry of Wonder woman and the clips on the others were pretty well done. Establishes meta-humans without making it a huge focus. Would have liked a bad guy or two as well, but oh well.

The fight scenes were generally good, although the resistance to bullets of all things Bat was a little ridiculous.

I really liked the ending. It takes Superman out of the next few movies potentially, which would be good as he is so over-powered, but gives scope for him to come back with Justice League.

In the end I came away wanting to see more. I really want the next movie. Which I can only really say for one or two of the Marvel franchises (Cap America really).

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Sorry for the long post, responding to a lot of different quotes.

On ‎2‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 7:56 AM, Leap said:

Why did Luthor create Doomsday even though he knew he couldn't control it? 

How do you know he knew he couldn't control it? My impression was that he thought he would be able to. And maybe if that had been a Kryptonians's blood the abomination could have been controlled.

On ‎2‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 8:01 AM, The BlackBear said:

Why does sticking blood on Zod and putting him through a machine create a Kryptonian hating monster for that matter?

Is that doomsdays comic book origin? Because it's awful.

It was pretty clear that the abomination is something that has been created before, and the instructions existed in the database that Luther accessed. How he found the instructions for the abomination is less clear. Probably he requested a search of the database for methods of killing yellow-sun enhanced Kryptonians and this was what popped out. Given the ship's help, would probably take a few minutes to have a number of ways of killing superman, this was probably the best given the tools he had to hand.

On ‎2‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 8:11 AM, Leap said:

Did he even have any Kryptonite? Batman steals it all, iirc. 

Also, why does Batman kill people?

Why does Luthor call Superman and then throw Lois off a tower even though he could literally be on the other side of the planet? And how does Luthor know that this night is the one in which Batman will fight Superman? How does he know that the bat signal is the reason Superman will fight Batman?

Why does Superman not go after the villains that Batman is chasing when they first meet?

Why does Lois throw the spear in the water?

Why does Superman bust some guy through a wall when Lois is initially captured instead of just...not doing that?

Why does Flash tell Bruce that Lois is the key, when in fact she has very little to do with anything. 

Why doesn't Bruce just check online ship registries for the obviously named 'White Portuguese'?

 

  1. Batman stole the largest piece of Kryptonite that Lex had, but it had already been established from the early tests that Lex had other available. How much is unknown.
  2. He clearly does it when he sees little other choice.
  3. He throws Lois off to call superman, having established from what happened in Africa that Superman either tracks her or (as is identified later in the movie) is hypersensitive to her. Why on earth would superman answer his call otherwise - people are probably making prayers to and calling for superman all over the world, all the time.
  4. Lex presumably was monitoring Batman, hence he knew what he was doing. Its established he knows who he is and has been playing him. So watching for when he turns up in Kryptonite gear wouldn't be too hard.
  5. Superman generally in the film doesn't go after villains. He nearly always focussed on the victims, not the criminals. I think that is one of the reasons why he admits to Batman that he was wrong. There is also the fact that he was clearly there to confront batman in the first meeting.
  6. Because she wants to hide it somewhere she can find it, as she doesn't know what/who is outside. Then, when she sees that they're losing to the Kryptonian thing that came from the ship, she goes back to get it.
  7. What were his other options? This series seems to be paying more attention to phsyics, hence Lois taking her hands away from her captor's arm so she isn't dragged along. If superman hits the guy fast enough he can't shoot, slowing down before the wall ain't going to make any difference.
  8. Clearly Flash's comment relates to something in the future, and was a teaser. And clearly it impacted Bruce Wayne as due to the travel back, he had a vision of the future, which played into his need to neutralise Superman. So it acted as both a teaser and reinforcement of Batman's actions.
  9. Because he thought it was a person.
On ‎2‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 9:13 AM, Leap said:

Sorry, maybe it's just me, but I don't generally assume that everyone who loves someone will always be following them to protect them. Or is it just Superman who's a stalker? 

When he kidnapped Lois and Martha, he had no idea that Batman would be out that night willing to fight. As far as he was aware he could have been back in his batcave, enjoying a nice red wine and watching cartoons. In fact, the last we saw of Superman before this was him gone hiking! 

It's never explained how Lex finds out about Superman's identity, we're just sort of left to assume that it was in the codex - except the only program that would have anything to do with Superman - Jor El, is deleted by Zod in MoS.

Also, I think you're straying dangerously close to the whole ''everyone who didn't like Batman vs Superman is just dumb'' argument. 

Oh really, so she throws it in a random puddle in an industrial estate in the middle of Gotham? Great thinking, Lois! Also, Superman is long gone, and absolutely healthy, by the time she throws it in the puddle. Literally, take it a few feet away from him and he's fine. Why does Batman leave it there anyway?!

I understand why he would stop to talk to Batman first, but why wouldn't he go after the villains after? He knows the sort of villains Batman goes after because he read the newspaper reports, and yet he leaves actual criminals up to the hilariously inept/underfunded Gotham PD? That's such bullshit, Superman! Do your job!

So you're saying he's fast enough to jump 20 feet forward before a guy can pull the trigger, but to do so he has to build enough momentum that he's physically incapable of stopping himself, a man of semi-normal weight, before he goes flying through a wall a few metres after that? More to the point, he has X-ray vision - why didn't he just come down through the roof above them and whisk Lois away? Or why not just come through the front door, for that matter? 

I know he didn't kill the guy, I'm just questioning why, especially after the events of Man of Steel, he's still incapable of not destroying a building every time he sees someone drop an empty can of pop?

Yes, and Batman learns precisely nothing from this. It does not affect the film in any way, and I'm honestly struggling to think of Lois doing anything of any relevance at all, apart from being a damsel in distress 3 times. 

Then why would Lex try to get the Senator to give him a pass to bring it into the country? And Bruce wouldn't actually tell Alfred ''oh so it turns out it's not a person, it's a ship'' rather than ''Oh, Alfred, we were right, it was a ship and it was illegal!''. 

The only way I can think to unfangle that situation is Lex somehow had to swap the Kryptonite from his other ship to the White Portuguese after he couldn't bring it in legally, and it just so happens that the White Portuguese was fairly near at the time. 

On the ones not already answered:

  1. Lex could easily find out superman's identity. The military knows, and from Lex's comments to Lois regarding Lexcorp metals he obviously found out she had been to the military on that. So he has the links (the senate bombing also shows that).  Alternatively, in MoS battles only occurred 3 places - the Indian ocean, Metropolis and Smallville. Lex wouldn't have too much trouble narrowing down why. Given how easy it would be for him, I'm glad they didn't waste time explaining.
  2. Batman leaves the spear as he's on the clock to save someone where the spear won't be useful. Lois wants to hide the spear so that it can't be found and doesn't raise questions. She has no idea who is outside the door, who (if anyone) came to see what the fight was about.
  3. The vision batman had was one part of driving Bruce Wayne to decide he had to kill superman. He's getting apocalyptic visions of what happens if superman isn't stopped.
  4. Ah, the senator didn't allow Lex to bring it in. So he used his black ops connections to do it instead. 
On ‎4‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 1:41 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Is Affleck even signed on to do a Batman movie? I thought it was only JL movies? 

Either way I think they've screwed the pooch with Batman, they've put him in a strange position now you have this large world full of superheroes and massive monsters. How can he go back to what was the interesting part of his life, solving crimes and fighting smaller villains?

Easily. In fact, it works better. The main issue with many of the marvel spin-off films is that each still has "end of the world" bad guy plan. Which then raises the question, why not bring in the Avengers? If Batman (and the others) focus on city level issue villians, it makes sense they don't draw on the Justice League. So it can easily fit in.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I finally got a chance to see this and had been avoiding spoilers other then the hivemind  facebook stuff about how awful the film is.  I You know it really wasn't.  It avoided most of the idiotic silliness of man of steel (no really blatant product placement) and I like that Costner got a cameo out of nowhere.  What really hobbled the film was an overeliance on  "Boss" fights. 

Movie couldn't decide if it wanted to be a Batman V. Superman film or an everybody v Doomsday film. 

It was a very ambitious idea but there was a frantic (not in a good way) quality to it.  Like DC was saying see we can be just as Dark as Marvel why aren't you paying attention to us?  Why don't you like us. 

The best part was the Lex Luthor actor who's name I do not recall thought he was going to be awful and he was actually one of the better parts of the film. 

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21 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

You maybe alone in that opinion.. on the whole planet!

No, I didn't mind Lex at all. He's a very different take on the character, but I'm ok with that. The film had far bigger problems.

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