Batman and Superman IV: "Do you bleed?" "Only on the home release..." (Now with SPOILERS)

[Rhom]

Other thread was at 21...

An R rated director's cut of Batman vs Superman has been approved.

Quote

Remember when Man of Steel came out after years of anticipation, and the major criticism was how dark and violent Superman's universe seemed? Well, that's unlikely to improve with Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. A close look at a bulletin from the Classification and Rating Administration reveals this superhero film has an R-rated "Ultimate Edition", presumably for Blu-Ray discs following the theatrical release

Clearly reactionary to the success of Deadpool.  Just shows that the folks at DC are so far behind in everything they do they even try to shoehorn this into the most recent trend.

[The King in Black]

Except actually it's not. That, and why this is still another major fuck up on Warner's part is very well explained in this article I guess

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjS6Muj5JDLAhVIUo4KHfx_AlkQqQIIHjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Fscottmendelson%2F2016%2F02%2F24%2Fbatman-v-superman-sends-wrong-message-with-r-rated-ultimate-edition%2F&usg=AFQjCNFFgjN7tBw8IPQM6bGZee8_poyCwg

[The King in Black]

Simply put, Warner is fucking up big time as the end of the line is nearing.

[Kalbear]

Suicide squad was targeted at pg13. As have all mainstream specfic stories.

I think that an r rated bvs isn't bad given how much it cleaves to dkr, but it certainly means it's not a superman movie.

[The King in Black]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Suicide squad was targeted at pg13. As have all mainstream specfic stories.

I think that an r rated bvs isn't bad given how much it cleaves to dkr, but it certainly means it's not a superman movie.

We can assume that the R rated scenes will only be flashbacks of Jason Todd's crowbaring scene

[The King in Black]

1 minute ago, Rcollins said:

See that just annoys me. PG13 Suicide Squad but they're trying to shoehorn in an R rated Batman v Superman a month before it hits theaters? Make like, one decision that isn't based off something that Marvel does...

(technically Fox)

It's one amongst a long line of dumbshit decisions they've made frankly speaking. The timing for this announcement couldn't have come at a worse time. It's like the link says : Everybody is now going to assume the obvious. 

[Kalbear]

I don't think they're trying to shoehorn it in. I think that the scenes of violence were a bit much as shot, and they had to cut them a bit. Same with Battle of the five armies.

[polishgenius]

Yeah, Kingdom Come, that was a dreadful Superman story.

[Rhom]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, Kingdom Come, that was a dreadful Superman story.

The storyline they created for the INjustice universe isn't bad either, but couldn't you argue that Kingdom Come was only good because you could contrast it to everything Superman had always been up to that point though?

[Rhom]

4 minutes ago, Rcollins said:

To be fair, an R rating in and of itself doesn't preclude a good Superman story. But combined with the fact that Snyder either doesn't understand Superman's character, or thinks he's a good enough director to reinvent it (he's not), it doesn't bode well.

That being said, the Affleck Batman looks way better than I ever would have suspected. I think he has potential to be the best live action Batman yet.

I don't disagree on Batfleck at this point.  I just wish they would give us something other than BvS to introduce him.  At this point, I really wonder just how much Superman we're going to get from this movie.  (Less might be more in this situation...)

[Kalbear]

36 minutes ago, Rhom said:

The storyline they created for the INjustice universe isn't bad either, but couldn't you argue that Kingdom Come was only good because you could contrast it to everything Superman had always been up to that point though?

Kingdom Come wouldn't be an R-rated movie. It didn't have a ton of major fights, even, and the ones it did were flashbacks and generic explosions. 

Injustice would definitely be rated R if they went all out, but again, that wouldn't be a basic superman movie; it'd be about superman as a villain and Batman would be the hero. I would contend that a superman movie where he's the villain isn't really about Superman in the general sense, any more than the Dark Knight is a movie about the Joker. 

And that's sort of the point. A movie that's rated R isn't going to be a superman movie because it pretty well goes against the character. Being super violent, brutal, having major fight sequences that are dark and scary - that's not superman as has been commonly represented, and wouldn't be Kingdom Come, either. That doesn't make it a bad movie, but it makes it a movie that is not big on the Superman mythos, even if it has Superman prominently featured. And that's not bad; DKR isn't a superman book either, and it even has superman fairly represented for quite a bit of it. 

[Rhom]

14 minutes ago, Rcollins said:

Idk, I mean we all know Batman's origins, and at a certain point rehashing the same story will just become tedious.

I completely agree though that they're stuffing way too much into this movie. Batman vs Superman with Luther would be enough, but we're also getting Doomsday, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, something about Apokolips. It's too much for one movie.

I don't need another origin.  However, we are jumping waaaaaay past origin with Batfleck.  He's already been through so many Bat stories obviously, but picking up somewhere in between MoS and this movie feels more right.  As you note, there's too much in this movie.

Maybe I'll be totally wrong, and it'll work... but I think you could almost do an entire movie of Lex and Bruce as wary industrial/technology partners and introduce Diana Prince as a socialite in there somewhere.  Maybe even have Clark Kent show up to do an interview with Bruce.  Then have it build up to a third movie that features the BvS showdown and reveal WW in that as well.   

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Kingdom Come wouldn't be an R-rated movie. It didn't have a ton of major fights, even, and the ones it did were flashbacks and generic explosions.

 One of the main things it is is a takedown of '90s xtreem superhero trends, and there's a lot of those guys doing xtreem things, that's why Superman does what he does at all. There's plenty of brutality, both physical and emotional.
And it ends with a full-scale battle.

You wouldn't have to rate it R but if you were to show the full extent of what's going on there it could easily be. The thing is in live-action that kind of thing inevitably gets amped up. It's why MoS had loads of people complaining about how Superman casually demolishes loads of buildings without worrying about bodycount when in the comics and cartoons that kind of thing happens a lot, usually either ignored entirely or handwaved with 'shitty economy' jokes or similar. Hell, one of his most celebrated moments in the tv shows of him talking about being careful not to hurt people is immediately followed by massive, careless property damage in the presence of squishy civilians. But people don't seem to complain about that one.

[Kalbear]

I think they don't complain about that one because it's clear Superman is aware of what he can be doing and is even monologuing about how he holds back. That, I think, is what people wanted from MoS - some at least vague awareness that he might be doing harm to a whole lot of people while he's doing this. 

[aceluby]

I need to learn to stay away from this thread.  It's depressing.

[polishgenius]

27 minutes ago, Rcollins said:

Well tone has a lot to do with it as well. Buildings get knocked down left and right in The Avengers, but it all still feels fun. In MOS there were all these filters over the colors that gave it a bleak feeling, close ups of civilians running and screaming with dust clotting up their wounds, etc. Plus a lot of the damage happens because Superman is showing what appears to be a deliberate disregard to the civilian population, like when he tackles Zod through a gas station, and never makes so much as an attempt to swerve out of the way, or look back and say "whoops."

 

 

My point was that Superman shows a blatant disregard for the civilians in the World of Cardboard speech too. And unlike MoS Superman, who's either in a rage or a desperate fight when he's knocking down buildings, he clearly makes a calculated decision to do so. You're right, tone is part of it.
 

This is the thing I'm not really understanding, though: yes, fair enough, in the original film the damage was at best passed over and at worst treated with a casualness at odds with the rest of the tone of the film. But I remember people saying at the time 'well, if they address the problem in the next film it could be better' - which was always likely seeing as the screenwriter said there was stuff in that vein that was cut from MoS- but now that we know that the next film is dealing with that issue, people are still saying noooo it's too dark it's not Superman.

I mean, don't get me wrong, (1) I think BvS could have some serious issues and (2) I think there's a place for a much lighter, more OTT Superman film too - I'd love to have seen something based on All-Star Superman and a de-crossovered version of DC One Million, although you couldn't really build a shared universe with that - but I don't think being able to make an R cut of it means it'll be a bad Superman for sure.

[Kalbear]

Quote

This is the thing I'm not really understanding, though: yes, fair enough, in the original film the damage was at best passed over and at worst treated with a casualness at odds with the rest of the tone of the film. But I remember people saying at the time 'well, if they address the problem in the next film it could be better' - which was always likely seeing as the screenwriter said there was stuff in that vein that was cut from MoS- but now that we know that the next film is dealing with that issue, people are still saying noooo it's too dark it's not Superman.

Well, I think this is a bit unfair. When people said they wanted to deal with it, they wanted Superman to deal with it. They wanted him to recognize his failure and be upset about it, recognize that he had to do better.

Instead, what we're getting is Batman recognizing how dangerous he is, how reckless he is, and taking that point to him. Batman bringing down the symbol of Superman is not at all making Superman better; it's specifically and deliberately making him an antagonist. 

I think that's what you're missing; ultimately the people who watched MoS had a hard time feeling like Superman was the protagonist or at least one they support wholeheartedly like Christopher Reeve, and this doesn't make it better - it takes that feeling and uses it even more to make a bigger fight. 

[The Anti-Targ]

Seems to me like the movie is going to live or die by its theatrical release and any R-rated Blu-Ray/on demand version will do nothing to help set the Justice League strategy on a solid foundation.

IMO Wonder Woman could help to make or break this movie. The way she's been presented so far in trailers is hard to get a read on whether she's going to present well.

I'm still looking forward to this movie with anticipation. But I have modest expectations, just like I had modest expectations for Ironman.

[The King in Black]

I don't think any fights or Superman will be R rated. The theatrical run is PG 13, which means whatever they cut wasn't that necessary to film. All  fingers point to Batman's flashbacks, especially with both Oracle and Jason Todd being present.

[AndrewJ]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Well, I think this is a bit unfair. When people said they wanted to deal with it, they wanted Superman to deal with it. They wanted him to recognize his failure and be upset about it, recognize that he had to do better.

Instead, what we're getting is Batman recognizing how dangerous he is, how reckless he is, and taking that point to him. Batman bringing down the symbol of Superman is not at all making Superman better; it's specifically and deliberately making him an antagonist. 

I think that's what you're missing; ultimately the people who watched MoS had a hard time feeling like Superman was the protagonist or at least one they support wholeheartedly like Christopher Reeve, and this doesn't make it better - it takes that feeling and uses it even more to make a bigger fight. 

Strange... I didn't think the movie was out yet. But you apparently know what's in it.

We haven't seen any glimpse of Batman confronting Superman about the events of MOS. We've seen some little barbs between Bruce and Clark - where they both were playing it a little coy as they couldn't come right out and admit their identity.

If the trailer had shown Superman callously responding to accusation from Batman with "Well... it serves them fucking right - they should have gotten out of my way", you'd have a point. But we haven't seen anything like that.

We can be sure that at some point Batman is going to confront Superman over the deaths of innocent people during the Zod fight. I'm of the opinion that Superman will express regret. You seem certain he'll express callous disregard. Care to have a wager?