SkylerWhite

What will happend in the minutes after „For the Watch?“

105 posts in this topic

The nights watch, led by Ser Allister Thorne, will try to take the dead body and burn it. But Jons body will be protected by some loyal friends among the nights watch and by the wildlings. The wildlings will riot against the nights watch (under Thorne). Melissandre will then bring Jon Snow to life. But i am sure that everybody knows that now, since part of it was on television allready and the other part will be tomorrow on television.

Honestly, I don't understand the point of speculating about WHAT will happen, since we will get the answers on television. The questions we can ask now are: how is it gonne different from the show. That is legitimate because there are going to be some changes from the tv show.

I understand that some people don't like the tv show, and that they would preffer to get the answers from the book(s), but what are you gonna do? Wait for seven to eight years (!!!) to get the answers, without being spoiled by tv or internet or society? That could work if you live under a rock :rolleyes:.

So for me, most of the questions are going to get answered in the next few weeks.  

But of course I will read winds as soon as it comes out (hopefully the next three years). But my interest are now different. 

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13 minutes ago, T and A said:

The nights watch, led by Ser Allister Thorne, will try to take the dead body and burn it. But Jons body will be protected by some loyal friends among the nights watch and by the wildlings. The wildlings will riot against the nights watch (under Thorne). Melissandre will then bring Jon Snow to life. But i am sure that everybody knows that now, since part of it was on television allready and the other part will be tomorrow on television.

Honestly, I don't understand the point of speculating about WHAT will happen, since we will get the answers on television. The questions we can ask now are: how is it gonne different from the show. That is legitimate because there are going to be some changes from the tv show.

I understand that some people don't like the tv show, and that they would preffer to get the answers from the book(s), but what are you gonna do? Wait for seven to eight years (!!!) to get the answers, without being spoiled by tv or internet or society? That could work if you live under a rock :rolleyes:.

So for me, most of the questions are going to get answered in the next few weeks.  

But of course I will read winds as soon as it comes out (hopefully the next three years). But my interest are now different. 

I think you're talking about the show since Thorne isn't at CB in the books, so maybe post this on the show forum. 

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10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think you're talking about the show since Thorne isn't at CB in the books, so maybe post this on the show forum. 

Thats exactly what I  meant :D

There are gonna be some changes. For someone they are gonna feel as big changes (obviously for you), for someone else (for example for me), the changes are small and not important for the big Plot at all. I personally don't care, whether Thorne or Bowen Marsh or X will lead the Nights Watch after Jons Murder. Important is that he will come to life. So the outpur will be the same.

 

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I think Thorne will execute Bowen Marsh. While Thorne is an asshole and does not like Jon even a little bit, he hates disloyalty and traitors more.

I also think Thorne will give the eulogy at Jon's pyre stating he had no love for Jon but admired his conviction towards the decisions he made as Lord Commander.

Then the pyre gets lit up and through some old gods magic (due to offerings and chanting by the Free Folk) or miracle Jon rises alive, whole and unburnt. (kind of like the dany scene where she burned all the Khals). This way it is uncontested as to whether he died or not, so he is now free of his vows. He grabs Longclaw his free folk army and goes off to unify the north.

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On 8/23/2016 at 1:48 PM, Slaysman said:

I think Thorne will execute Bowen Marsh. While Thorne is an asshole and does not like Jon even a little bit, he hates disloyalty and traitors more.

I also think Thorne will give the eulogy at Jon's pyre stating he had no love for Jon but admired his conviction towards the decisions he made as Lord Commander.

Then the pyre gets lit up and through some old gods magic (due to offerings and chanting by the Free Folk) or miracle Jon rises alive, whole and unburnt. (kind of like the dany scene where she burned all the Khals). This way it is uncontested as to whether he died or not, so he is now free of his vows. He grabs Longclaw his free folk army and goes off to unify the north.

Couldn't agree less. :ack:

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On 23/08/2016 at 8:48 PM, Slaysman said:

I think Thorne will execute Bowen Marsh. While Thorne is an asshole and does not like Jon even a little bit, he hates disloyalty and traitors more.

I also think Thorne will give the eulogy at Jon's pyre stating he had no love for Jon but admired his conviction towards the decisions he made as Lord Commander.

Then the pyre gets lit up and through some old gods magic (due to offerings and chanting by the Free Folk) or miracle Jon rises alive, whole and unburnt. (kind of like the dany scene where she burned all the Khals). This way it is uncontested as to whether he died or not, so he is now free of his vows. He grabs Longclaw his free folk army and goes off to unify the north.

I somewhat agree with that.

I don't think Thorne would have been part of the traitors. But I don't think he will return soon. While I don't think he is dead. I believe Jon will have his pyre and his "... and now his watch is ended". He will resurrect there after. Not by Melisandre doing, may she burn with him. But in something a bit like the dragons' birth.

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Jon will not be resurrected quickly.  Brans vision of his body growing cold on a bed of ice, the memory of all warmth fading suggests it will be some time.  I also feel it is likely that Bran will contact Jon while he is still in Ghost.

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Jons last word is "Ghost" the same way Robbs is "Grey wind", so I think Jon will warg into the ghost and maybe kill Bowen Marsh and company in his rage 

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16 hours ago, Dr Qyburn M.D said:

Jons last word is "Ghost" the same way Robbs is "Grey wind", so I think Jon will warg into the ghost and maybe kill Bowen Marsh and company in his rage 

It is easy to forget how angry Jon gets.

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Whatever happens during the next moments after Jon Snow (apparently) losing consciousness:

GRRM has created a situation which allows the release of a lot of tension which has built up at the wall, at Castle Black especially:

  • Jon's officers (Bowen Marsh, Septon Cellador, Othwell Yarwyck) and Flint & Norrey: all opposing Jon's plan to let the Wildlings south of the Wall
  • Queen Selyse Baratheon (she likes in fact noone except Melisandre)
  • The Queens Men (due to their proximity to Queen Selyse a powerful group at CB which noone dares to oppose)
  • Val: Considers Shireen's greyscale still a danger and wants her dead; unwilling to accept being married to one of the Queen's Men
  • Ghost who cannnot run free and be with Jon (as Jon would wish) as long as the Wildling skinchanger with his bear is at Castle Black
  • The Wildling leaders (Tormund, Sigorn Magnar of Thenn, Val) all of them loyal to Jon or at least owing him loyalty, tension between Sigorn and the rest
  • Wildlings having taken the black: Not well accepted by many of the Black Brothers

Jon kept all these conflicts as best as he could down but unresolved. He never for example surrounded himself with loyal officers but kept on going with what he had. He never went into conflict with the Queens Men clearly showing them who was boss at CB. And he never moved the Wildling skinchanger with his bear away (which I never understood), e.g. to Mole's Town or one of the other castles.

Whether or not Jon Snow will be alive in the next book, I think that this way of keeping conflicts down and unspoken will end at CB and thus at the Night Watch. Whoever arises as new leader of Castle Black will be in a stronger leading position than Jon was before the mutiny.

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If the Nights watch is wiped out after this assasination, then the warding effect on the Wall will dissipate, might the Others sense it and move in haste towards the wall. I mean, surely they must know it is there, right?

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2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

If the Nights watch is wiped out after this assasination, then the warding effect on the Wall will dissipate, might the Others sense it and move in haste towards the wall. I mean, surely they must know it is there, right?

If you would believe the wardings will leave the Wall (and I could believe that, Old Nan's words), then the magic must go somewhere. And I would bet, in reviving Jon. As he is the last one really guarding the Realms of Men. I would far prefer to see him returning this way, than owing to Melisandre.

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20 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

If you would believe the wardings will leave the Wall (and I could believe that, Old Nan's words), then the magic must go somewhere. And I would bet, in reviving Jon. As he is the last one really guarding the Realms of Men. I would far prefer to see him returning this way, than owing to Melisandre.

One of the many, many plot lines I cannot wait with patience to see unfold in TWOW.

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On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 9:05 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

Whatever happens during the next moments after Jon Snow (apparently) losing consciousness:

GRRM has created a situation which allows the release of a lot of tension which has built up at the wall, at Castle Black especially:

  • Jon's officers (Bowen Marsh, Septon Cellador, Othwell Yarwyck) and Flint & Norrey: all opposing Jon's plan to let the Wildlings south of the Wall
  • Queen Selyse Baratheon (she likes in fact noone except Melisandre)
  • The Queens Men (due to their proximity to Queen Selyse a powerful group at CB which noone dares to oppose)
  • Val: Considers Shireen's greyscale still a danger and wants her dead; unwilling to accept being married to one of the Queen's Men
  • Ghost who cannnot run free and be with Jon (as Jon would wish) as long as the Wildling skinchanger with his bear is at Castle Black
  • The Wildling leaders (Tormund, Sigorn Magnar of Thenn, Val) all of them loyal to Jon or at least owing him loyalty, tension between Sigorn and the rest
  • Wildlings having taken the black: Not well accepted by many of the Black Brothers

Jon kept all these conflicts as best as he could down but unresolved. He never for example surrounded himself with loyal officers but kept on going with what he had. He never went into conflict with the Queens Men clearly showing them who was boss at CB. And he never moved the Wildling skinchanger with his bear away (which I never understood), e.g. to Mole's Town or one of the other castles.

Whether or not Jon Snow will be alive in the next book, I think that this way of keeping conflicts down and unspoken will end at CB and thus at the Night Watch. Whoever arises as new leader of Castle Black will be in a stronger leading position than Jon was before the mutiny.

I just re-read all of the Jon chapters in Dance.  He is trying to fill all the forts along the wall and his first priority was to send as many women away as possible to avoid rape situations and he only had so many wagons to send.  They had just returned to take the skinchange and his boar and others to their new castle the following morning.

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22 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I just re-read all of the Jon chapters in Dance.  He is trying to fill all the forts along the wall and his first priority was to send as many women away as possible to avoid rape situations and he only had so many wagons to send.  They had just returned to take the skinchange and his boar and others to their new castle the following morning.

I know. But for a week or so, Jon could not have Ghost running free. That was already too Long a time. He should have sent the skinchanger by horse to Moles Town the very day he came south of the wall.

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20 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I know. But for a week or so, Jon could not have Ghost running free. That was already too Long a time. He should have sent the skinchanger by horse to Moles Town the very day he came south of the wall.

If Jon is in Ghost as I suspect, the skinchanger Boroq I believe was his name could prove useful.

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4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

If Jon is in Ghost as I suspect, the skinchanger Boroq I believe was his name could prove useful.

Yeah, I think so too. He even calls Jon 'brother'. 

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9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I think so too. He even calls Jon 'brother'. 

Strange then that the boar doesn't get along with Ghost enough that Barroq and the boar take up residence in a graveyard, and Ghost isn't free to roam. This considering how long time skinchanger connections with their animals almost make their minds and temperament one.

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They'll roam Castle Black, shouting "The tyrant is dead!" But nobody will leave their homes. 

Seriously though, this was a shitty plan from the start. You kill the boss it has to be to take over, and you have to kill those loyal to him otherwise you die. These men don't have the juice to take Jon's place. Killing him in the manner they did will prove fatal. Jon has given the Wildlings something they've been trying to get for thousands of years. He brought them through the Wall, without bloodshed saving their lives, to think they won't kill the men who murdered him for doing that is a mistake of epic proportions. 

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On 12/8/2016 at 0:03 AM, Ninerings said:

Strange then that the boar doesn't get along with Ghost enough that Barroq and the boar take up residence in a graveyard, and Ghost isn't free to roam. This considering how long time skinchanger connections with their animals almost make their minds and temperament one.

Also pointed out by @aryagonnakill and @kissdbyfire

This is something I think Jon is wrong about, and Tormund's attitude is misleading.

Our introduction to Borroq comes through Varamyr... Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks  ...Prologue, ADWD

When Jon meets Borroq in Jon XII, we get a fuller description ...
 Amongst the riders came one man afoot, with some big beast trotting at his heels. A boar, Jon saw. A monstrous boar. Twice the size of Ghost, the creature was covered with coarse black hair, with tusks as long as a man's arm. Jon had never seen a boar so huge or ugly. The man beside him was no beauty either; hulking, black-browed, he had a flat nose, heavy jowls dark with stubble, small black close-set eyes.
“Borroq.” Tormund turned his head and spat. “A skinchanger.” It was not a question. Somehow
he knew.

It's been pretty well established by readers that the appearance of a boar presages change - of lord, king, regime, etc. ..  A monstrous boar.. Jon had never seen a boar so huge or ugly. I think this implies greater change and upheaval than the downfall and change of a leader or head of state, where often the kingdom survives more or less intact and the laws and traditions of society continue much as before. The boar's size accentuautes all the other hints that profound change is coming.

It's misleading when Tormund turns his head and spits. We would normally take it to mean that Tormund has no use for Borroq .. but though other characters have used the gesture this way, my search only showed Tormund using anything like it while embarrassed at having made a mistake, himself...

The king gave the older man an irritated look. “Tormund, someday try thinking before you speak. I know it was Craster. I asked Jon to see if he would tell it true.” 
“Har.” Tormund spat. “Well, I stepped in that!” He grinned at Jon.
..ASoS

 So this looks like George's intentional misdirection. Borroq is one of his most trusted rearguard, it's unlikely that Tormund thinks poorly of him.

Jon XII continues..
Ghost turned his head. The falling snow had masked the boar’s scent, but now the white wolf had the smell. He padded out in front of Jon, his teeth bared in a silent snarl.
"No!" Jon snapped. "Ghost, down. Stay. Stay!"
"Boars and wolves," said Tormund. "Best keep that beast o' yours locked up tonight. I'll see that Borroq does the same with his pig."
...<snip>

I'll leave the first bit for later .. When Ghost catches the boar's scent he takes up a protective, agresseive stance..Jon, undeveloped as he is, has to issue a sharp verbal command to control him... Tormund's "Boars and wolves" reminds us that they are natural enemies.. using "beast"  for Ghost implies that (because of Jon's imperfect bond), Ghost may give in to natural impulses (so,best lock him up).

Tormund says he'll see that Borroq does the same with his "pig" - a much more domesticated term than beast, monster or even boar (when it's not merely being used to designate a male) and we see later, that Borroq doesn't need to lock him up at all.. Jon first sees the boar as "some big beast" - yet it's trotting at Borroq's heels. Its appearance is wild and menacing but its behaviour is docile.
(Here, Tormund as well as Bowen and his men go through the tunnel, so Tormund isn't present to make any illuminating comments from this point on).. We continue...

Only Jon Snow and his guards were left.

The skinchanger stopped ten yards away. His monster pawed at the mud, snuffling. A light powdering of snow covered the boar’s humped black back. He gave a snort and lowered his head, and for half a heartbeat Jon thought he was about to charge. To either side of him, his men lowered their spears.
“Brother,” Borroq said. “You’d best go on. We are about to close the gate.”
“You do that,” Borroq said. “You close it good and tight. They’re coming, crow.” He smiled as ugly a smile as Jon had ever seen and made his way to the gate. The boar stalked after him. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them.
 ... Jon XII

Pawing at the mud and snuffling might be agressive, but doesn't seem to agree with their reputation for sudden swift charges.. I suspect the snuffling was a sign of testing for scents.. George reminded us that the snow masked scent. He gave a snort and lowered his head...but within half a heartbeat, Borroq says "Brother". So I suspect the grunt and lowering of the head was a sign of some command or reassurance from Borroq, resulting in a nod, if not quite a bow to Jon and Ghost.

We are conditioned to read "an ugly smile" and think "menacing" .. but Borroq is an ugly man.. so I've always given him the benefit of the doubt. I really feel it was genuine..

And I think those two will play an important part in what's coming next. There are two similar sentences that bookend the above scene, that I blush to admit I only paid attention to recently.. 1. The falling snow had masked the boar’s scent,

It's snowing heavily at CB in Jon's last chapter...It's not the boar's scent that has Ghost upset.

2. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them.

George is telling us, in his inimitable way, that the falling "Snow" has covered their tracks in Jon's last chapter .. but they are making tracks - they're just obscured.

Some won't like where I'm going next, but but here we see use of the words scent and smell in that scene (and the snow masks scent at a distance) ... Later Jon will use a third word .. 

It’s that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink. 

We know the assassination attempt is upcoming.

At the end of ASoS we also saw death looming for Jon on his suicide mission... “No need for that, my lord,” said Ser Alliser. “Lord Snow will do as we ask. He wants to show us that he is no turncloak. He wants to prove himself a loyal man of the Night’s Watch.” 
Thorne was much the more clever of the two, Jon realized; this had his stink all over it. He was trapped. “I’ll go,” he said in a clipped, curt voice.
...ASoS Jon X

If I remember my previous search correctly, these are the only two uses made of "his stink". I had noticed this one long ago, but the Borroq scene reinforces my opinion that Thorne is back at CB, and again is the brain behind the plot.

In Tormund's camp, Jon informs us.. 
Ghost was the only protection Jon needed; the direwolf could sniff out foes, even those who hid their enmity behind smiles.

Ghost bristles at Bowen who we know is involved , but tries to bite Mully. It's pretty clear Mully was working with Bowen all along. From Ghost's reactions, I assume that Mully had had very recent contact with Thorne, or something belonging to or used by Thorne when he entered Jon's quarters. He doesn't react as much to Bowen because the knows the greater enemy is somewhere outside.

ETA: Oops! One more from the Prologue re: skinchangers...

 Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella …

(makes me think of a Trappers' Rendezvous).. But there was Borroq and his boar, Grisella and her goat(s?) surrounded by multiple wolves and a shadowcat.. and apparently,  no problemos.. So Tormund's concern was always about Ghost...

Edited by bemused

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