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Small Questions v. 10105


Rhaenys_Targaryen

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On 9/23/2016 at 11:18 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, like Arianne... um... well, her and Tyene, and maybe the other two eldest Sand Sankes... they're like, um, bi, right? And they've, um... well, you know... they've ridden bumper-to-bumper, right? 

Seriously, they're bi, right?

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1 minute ago, Jon Weirgaryen said:

World (Riverlands) domination also played a role in it.

Thats what I thought too - but he doesnt really gain much so I wondered if I had missed something! 

I'm surprised that at least he didnt insist on LP status being restored back to the Lord of Riverrun.

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Why GRRM put so much contact points between Brynder Rivers and Jon Snow? Have all the similarities no meaning at all? Some samples:

  • Both Brynden and Jon are part valyrian part first man bastards (ok for Jon in the book is still unconfirmed, yet likely).
  • Both served in black and raised to Lord Commander position (and it is very likely that Jon will later leave the position like Brynden did)
  • Jon Direwolf Ghost is an albino with red eyes just like Brynden, but there is even more looking at the first chapter of GoT
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"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind

His eyes opened while the others are blind may represent Brynden greenseer powers, while Jon Snow notably "Knows Nothing". :P

Actually looking back, leaving aside the first two bullets that may hold no meaning at all, the third bullet may lead to a completely different question:

Was really Ghost meant for Jon or was it actually meant for Bran? More generally what are your interpretations of the bold part in the quote?

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8 hours ago, Marada78 said:

Why GRRM put so much contact points between Brynder Rivers and Jon Snow? Have all the similarities no meaning at all? Some samples:

  • Both Brynden and Jon are part valyrian part first man bastards (ok for Jon in the book is still unconfirmed, yet likely).
  • Both served in black and raised to Lord Commander position (and it is very likely that Jon will later leave the position like Brynden did)
  • Jon Direwolf Ghost is an albino with red eyes just like Brynden, but there is even more looking at the first chapter of GoT

His eyes opened while the others are blind may represent Brynden greenseer powers, while Jon Snow notably "Knows Nothing". :P

Actually looking back, leaving aside the first two bullets that may hold no meaning at all, the third bullet may lead to a completely different question:

Was really Ghost meant for Jon or was it actually meant for Bran? More generally what are your interpretations of the bold part in the quote?

They both have Targaryen and (not just any First Man house but) Blackwood blood (Jon on both sides if R+L).  

It could be some sort of parallel intended between the two.  I have a creepy suspicion that Bloodraven intends to warg Jon if any "resurrection" occurs, living a second life through him.  This is only a hunch though. 

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Do we have any text on Tyrion wondering who killed Joffrey? 

 

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Assuming Joffrey had not simply choked to death on a bit of food, which even Tyrion found hard to swallow, Sansa must have poisoned him. Joff practically put his cup down in her lap, and he'd given her ample reason. Any doubts Tyrion might have had vanished when his wife did. One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well, what did you expect, dwarf?

 

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"Did Sansa Stark do it, then?" Lord Tyrell demanded.

I would have, if I'd been her. Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it. "The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie."

Both from ASOS, Tyrion IX.

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On 9/29/2016 at 0:40 AM, Isobel Harper said:

During the Battle on the Blackwater, we know that Pride of Driftmark burned and that Bold Laughter was destroyed by a boulder.  Any confirmation on what happened to Harridan and Seahorse?  I assume they burned too? 

In addition to my first question, did all the Myrish galleys burn as well? 

 Downstream, commoners and highborn captains alike could see the hot green death swirling toward their rafts and carracks and ferries, borne on the current of the Blackwater. The long white oars of the Myrish galleys flashed like the legs of maddened centipedes as they fought to come about, but it was no good. The centipedes had no place to run.

I'm trying to figure out which ship Aurane Waters captained on the Battle of the Blackwater.  Aurane is a sellsail and a Velaryon (albeit a bastard).  Stannis hired sellsails out of Lys and Myr, and House Velaryon was in his navy.  The Lyseni sellsails never entered the river and were, therefore, never captured.  That leaves the possibility of Aurane sailing as a Myrish sellsail or with the Velaryons.  

If he sailed as a MYRISH sellsail, this opens the possibility of him having connections in Myr.  (By connections,  I'm thinking possibly  with Lady Taena, the Gold Company in Myr, ships that sailed the GC away to Westeros, something along those lines).

If Aurane sailed with the Velaryons, my thoughts are that he captained Bold Laughter, which was destroyed by a boulder, not by fire.

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On 9/29/2016 at 1:40 AM, Isobel Harper said:

During the Battle on the Blackwater, we know that Pride of Driftmark burned and that Bold Laughter was destroyed by a boulder.  Any confirmation on what happened to Harridan and Seahorse?  I assume they burned too? 

Yes, Harridan went up in flames. Not sure about Seahorse:

Davos 3 chapter: Swordfish and the hulk were gone, blackened bodies were floating downstream beside him, and choking men clinging to bits of smoking wood. Fifty feet high, a swirling demon of green flame danced upon the river. It had a dozen hands, in each a whip, and whatever they touched burst into fire. He saw Black Betha burning, and White Hart and Loyal Man to either side. Piety, Cat, Courageous, Sceptre, Red Raven, Harridan, Faithful, Fury, they had all gone up, Kingslander and Godsgrace as well, the demon was eating his own.

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49 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, Harridan went up in flames. Not sure about Seahorse:

Davos 3 chapter: Swordfish and the hulk were gone, blackened bodies were floating downstream beside him, and choking men clinging to bits of smoking wood. Fifty feet high, a swirling demon of green flame danced upon the river. It had a dozen hands, in each a whip, and whatever they touched burst into fire. He saw Black Betha burning, and White Hart and Loyal Man to either side. Piety, Cat, Courageous, Sceptre, Red Raven, Harridan, Faithful, Fury, they had all gone up, Kingslander and Godsgrace as well, the demon was eating his own.

Edit: ---

Thanks for the confirmation on Harridan burning .  If Aurane was sailing with the Velaryons, then perhaps Bold Laughter or Seahorse were his ship?  

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On 29-9-2016 at 7:40 AM, Isobel Harper said:

During the Battle on the Blackwater, we know that Pride of Driftmark burned and that Bold Laughter was destroyed by a boulder.  Any confirmation on what happened to Harridan and Seahorse?  I assume they burned too? 

 

7 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

In addition to my first question, did all the Myrish galleys burn as well? 

 Downstream, commoners and highborn captains alike could see the hot green death swirling toward their rafts and carracks and ferries, borne on the current of the Blackwater. The long white oars of the Myrish galleys flashed like the legs of maddened centipedes as they fought to come about, but it was no good. The centipedes had no place to run.

I'm trying to figure out which ship Aurane Waters captained on the Battle of the Blackwater.  Aurane is a sellsail and a Velaryon (albeit a bastard).  Stannis hired sellsails out of Lys and Myr, and House Velaryon was in his navy.  The Lyseni sellsails never entered the river and were, therefore, never captured.  That leaves the possibility of Aurane sailing as a Myrish sellsail or with the Velaryons.  

If he sailed as a MYRISH sellsail, this opens the possibility of him having connections in Myr.  (By connections,  I'm thinking possibly  with Lady Taena, the Gold Company in Myr, ships that sailed the GC away to Westeros, something along those lines).

If Aurane sailed with the Velaryons, my thoughts are that he captained Bold Laughter, which was destroyed by a boulder, not by fire.

According to ASOS, Chapter 25':

“Stannis Baratheon will never sit the Iron Throne. Is it treason to say the truth? A bitter truth, but no less true for that. His fleet is gone, save for the Lyseni, and Salladhor Saan will flee at the first sight of a Lannister sail. Most of the lords who supported Stannis have gone over to Joffrey or died...”

Which would imply that Seahorse was destroyed as well. No information about how, though fire is the most likely scenario, as that was the fate of most ships present.

Considering that Aurane is the Bastard of the Driftmark, I'd say he would have been on a Velaryon ship. Though, I have to add that, while Aurane is stated to have spend half of his life on ships, there is no confirmation (that I could find) that states or implies that he ever captained a ship at the Blackwater or before.

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3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

According to ASOS, Chapter 25':

“Stannis Baratheon will never sit the Iron Throne. Is it treason to say the truth? A bitter truth, but no less true for that. His fleet is gone, save for the Lyseni, and Salladhor Saan will flee at the first sight of a Lannister sail. Most of the lords who supported Stannis have gone over to Joffrey or died...”

Which would imply that Seahorse was destroyed as well. No information about how, though fire is the most likely scenario, as that was the fate of most ships present.

Considering that Aurane is the Bastard of the Driftmark, I'd say he would have been on a Velaryon ship. Though, I have to add that, while Aurane is stated to have spend half of his life on ships, there is no confirmation (that I could find) that states or implies that he ever captained a ship at the Blackwater or before.

The app (or is it AWoIaF?) states that Aurane is a sellsail.  I took that to mean a captain of a ship, either with his own singular ship or with a sellsail company, probably the latter.  Could a sellsail be anyone (from a soldier to a captain) with a sellsail company?  I also took his role as Grand Admiral on the Small Council as a hint of some sort of experience commanding a ship/ships before.  (On the author's part at least.  I know Cersei picked him as Grand Admiral mostly due to his attractiveness.)  

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1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

The app (or is it AWoIaF?) states that Aurane is a sellsail.  I took that to mean a captain of a ship, either with his own singular ship or with a sellsail company, probably the latter.  Could a sellsail be anyone (from a soldier to a captain) with a sellsail company?  I also took his role as Grand Admiral on the Small Council as a hint of some sort of experience commanding a ship/ships before.  (On the author's part at least.  I know Cersei picked him as Grand Admiral mostly due to his attractiveness.)  

I've checked Aurane's entry in the app. It doesn't say "sellsail". Searching for the term "sellsail" in all of the printed works doesn't point to Aurane either.  (The term "sellsail" is far less often mentioned as I had expected.) It does mention "sellsword captains" in in regards to 'who did Stannis hire' in ACOK, Tyrion IV, which should make it clear that being a sellsail doesn't automatically make you a captain of a ship. Any sailor who is a mercenary and is willing to have his service be "for rent" would count as a sellsail, I think.

Does that mean that every sailor of a fleet counts as a sellsail? Personally, I'd say no, as soldiers fighting in an army are not counted under "sellswords", either.

The wiki did make a mention of sellsail, on the "House Velaryon" page. However, since it is not stated in the books, app, SSM's, or RPG's, I've removed the mention for the time being. Lot's of people do see Aurane as a sellsail captain, try googling "Aurane Waters sellsail"... However, that might be a case of information that was once incorrectly stated by someone, to be repeated since..

If you would happen to find any mention of Aurane being a sellsail, I'd of course be very interested to know!

 

Aurane was only twenty-two when he was named Grand Admiral. While it is not impossible to captain a ship at such an age (Balon Greyjoy captained his own ship at the age of seventeen, for example, and Theon is twenty/twenty-one when captaining the Sea Bitch in ACOK), it is worth mentioning that it would have required having received a ship from his brother, Lord Monford, as Jaime strongly implies that Aurane does not have much coin to spend.

“There is talk that you mean to make Aurane Waters the master of ships.”
“Has someone been informing on me?” When he did not answer, Cersei tossed her hair back, and said, “Waters is well suited to the office. He has spent half his life on ships.”
“Half his life? He cannot be more than twenty.”
“Two-and-twenty, and what of it? Father was not even one-and-twenty when Aerys Targaryen named him Hand. It is past time Tommen had some young men about him in place of all these wrinkled greybeards. Aurane is strong and vigorous.”
Strong and vigorous and handsome, Jaime thought... . she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know... “Paxter Redwyne would be a better choice. He commands the largest fleet in Westeros. Aurane Waters could command a skiff, but only if you bought him one.”

Jaime already discounts Aurane because of his age, but besides that, he also looks at experience. Of course Aurane would have far less experience than Paxter Redwyne, even if Aurane had captained a ship since seventeen, but still.... You'd expect that Cersei would mention his experience if he had any in holding command, instead of only mentioning "strong and vigorous"... Instead she uses his experience in sailing.

Also, I'd say that Jaime's last comment ("Aurane Waters could command a skiff, but only if you bought him one.") would argue against Aurane having experience in captaining a ship.

There's also this, once Aurane actually holds command and needs to chose captains for his own ships:

The Grand Maester had been especially querulous in council of late. At the last session he had complained bitterly about the men that Aurane Waters had chosen to captain her new dromonds. Waters meant to give the ships to younger men, whilst Pycelle argued for experience, insisting that the commands should go to those captains who had survived the fires of the Blackwater. "Seasoned men of proven loyalty," he called them. Cersei called them old, and sided with Lord Waters. "The only thing these captains proved was that they know how to swim," she'd said. "No mother should outlive her children, and no captain should outlive his ship." Pycelle had taken the rebuke with ill grace.

If Aurane had been the captain to one of the three remaining Velaryon ships (Lord Monford himself captaining Pride of Driftmark, I suppose), he clearly proved that he knew "how to swim" at the Blackwater, and outlived his ship... While I realise this is Cersei speaking, would she really argue against "experienced captains" by pointing out the faults of the man she has chosen herself?

 

Anyway, as I said, Aurane might have captained a ship (his age certainly is not a reason to discount the possibility), but I can't find a mention or suggestion of it.

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The wiki did make a mention of sellsail, on the "House Velaryon" page. However, since it is not stated in the books, app, SSM's, or RPG's, I've removed the mention for the time being.

The wiki is where I read that Aurane was a sellsail.  I guess that's where the mixup lies. 

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You'd expect that Cersei would mention his experience if he had any in holding command, instead of only mentioning "strong and vigorous"... Instead she uses his experience in sailing.

Good point. 

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If Aurane had been the captain to one of the three remaining Velaryon ships (Lord Monford himself captaining Pride of Driftmark, I suppose), he clearly proved that he knew "how to swim" at the Blackwater, and outlived his ship... While I realise this is Cersei speaking, would she really argue against "experienced captains" by pointing out the faults of the man she has chosen herself?

I thought Cersei (yeah, being Cersei) was unintentionally insulting Waters to his face. Hahaha!  (Side note: I also thought that Loras' suggestion in AFfC that Lyseni and Myrish sellsails were "scum" and "pirates" might have been the actual "suggestion" that Aurane Waters "bristled at," and not Loras' suggestion (as Cersei seems to think) that the Redwyne fleet sail from Dragonstone.  That is, I thought Loras unintentionally insulted Aurane as well. If all my ideas about Aurane's past were true, no wonder he'd ran off.  Everyone was insulting him!  :))

So, from what we've discussed, it appears that Aurane Waters didn't have experience captaining a ship (my bad) before becoming Grand Admiral.  He also was most likely on a Velaryon ship during the BotB.

I personally think he was on Bold Laughter, since it's the only Velaryon ship that did not burn.  My reasoning is that being on the only ship that didn't burn would greatly increase one's chances of surviving the wildfire on the river.  Maybe we'll have something more concrete in Winds on his role during the BotB.

As always, thanks for the informative response, @Rhaenys_Targaryen. 

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23 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

The wiki is where I read that Aurane was a sellsail.  I guess that's where the mixup lies. 

Good point. 

I thought Cersei (yeah, being Cersei) was unintentionally insulting Waters to his face. Hahaha!  (Side note: I also thought that Loras' suggestion in AFfC that Lyseni and Myrish sellsails were "scum" and "pirates" might have been the actual "suggestion" that Aurane Waters "bristled at," and not Loras' suggestion (as Cersei seems to think) that the Redwyne fleet sail from Dragonstone.  That is, I thought Loras unintentionally insulted Aurane as well. If all my ideas about Aurane's past were true, no wonder he'd ran off.  Everyone was insulting him!  :))

Poor guy! :D 

23 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

So, from what we've discussed, it appears that Aurane Waters didn't have experience captaining a ship (my bad) before becoming Grand Admiral.  He also was most likely on a Velaryon ship during the BotB.

I personally think he was on Bold Laughter, since it's the only Velaryon ship that did not burn.  My reasoning is that being on the only ship that didn't burn would greatly increase one's chances of surviving the wildfire on the river.  Maybe we'll have something more concrete in Winds on his role during the BotB.

As always, thanks for the informative response, @Rhaenys_Targaryen. 

Certainly possible. Not being near the fire should increase the odds of surviving indeed! And if Aurane is indeed the Lord of the Waters, I think odds are good that we'll hear from him again!

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