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Small Questions v. 10105


Rhaenys_Targaryen

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3 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

What exactly were Aegon IV's intentions when he legitimized his bastards on his deathbed?

We can't be certain but probably to cause chaos and spite his son Daeron who he did not get along with. 

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5 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Why didn't Daeron marry Daena himself?

I assume you mean Daeron I.  

That's a good question.  I mean, I can see why Naerys married Aegon, not Aemon.  Aegon was more likely to become (and did become) king than his younger brother Aemon.  Targaryens, wishing to keep the bloodline "pure," would marry an only daughter to the eldest son.  But Daena had two other sisters.  Why DIDN'T Daeron marry Daena, than Baelor another sister? 

Perhaps Daeron wished to keep his marriage options open until Dorne was subdued?

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Just now, Isobel Harper said:

I assume you mean Daeron I.  

That's a good question.  I mean, I can see why Naerys married Aegon, not Aemon.  Aegon was more likely to become (and did become) king than his younger brother Aemon.  Targaryens, wishing to keep the bloodline "pure," would marry an only daughter to the eldest son.  But Daena had two other sisters.  Why DIDN'T Daeron marry Daena, than Baelor another sister? 

Perhaps Daeron wished to keep his marriage options open until Dorne was subdued?

Yes, Daeron I.

I don't see why Dorne being subdued would be the issue though. He had it subdued for a tiny bit. Maybe he wanted to wait for a little Dornish princess to come of age? But...no. If that was the case they would have arranged a betrothal and just waited on the wedding. Maybe there were no Dornish princesses at the time. Maybe one of his small council was pushing for a foreign alliance.

Or maybe he had a really strange sense of humor and thought it would be funny to match his two most opposite siblings and see what happened? Rhaena would have been a much better match for Baelor if he wasn't going for comedic effect.

I get that he was young and healthy and probably didn't think he needed to rush things with his own personal life, but that still doesn't explain the oddest couple in Targ history. Even Aerys and Rhaella at least had prophecy to force them into it. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes, Daeron I.

I don't see why Dorne being subdued would be the issue though. He had it subdued for a tiny bit. Maybe he wanted to wait for a little Dornish princess to come of age? But...no. If that was the case they would have arranged a betrothal and just waited on the wedding. Maybe there were no Dornish princesses at the time. Maybe one of his small council was pushing for a foreign alliance.

Or maybe he had a really strange sense of humor and thought it would be funny to match his two most opposite siblings and see what happened? Rhaena would have been a much better match for Baelor if he wasn't going for comedic effect.

I get that he was young and healthy and probably didn't think he needed to rush things with his own personal life, but that still doesn't explain the oddest couple in Targ history. Even Aerys and Rhaella at least had prophecy to force them into it. 

True.  Baelor and Rhaena would have been a better match. 

Aerys and Rhaella were married when they were 13 or 14.  They had a prophecy pushing their marriage though. Perhaps their parents were preventing them from eloping like they did? 

Aegon V married Betha when he was 20.  He had been legally a man for 4 years, and yet he wasn't married before then.  However,  there might have been good reasons for this.  His sister (Daella?) might have ended up marrying someone else.  And Aegon was thought to not inherit the throne at that time, so no pressure. 

One real life example comes to mind.  Edward IV married Elizabeth Woodville when he was 24.  Lord Warwick did have a marriage with a princess of France in the works, but Edward WAS still free at 24 to marry.  Perhaps not marrying by the age of 18 (the age Daeron died) wasn't that atypical? 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

In the absence of some information  to the contrary, I would assume Summerhal, or possibly King's Landing. 

Maybe Lys as a distant third. Do we know who Aerion was married too? I don't remember if anyone was mentioned.

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6 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Where was Maegor Brightflame born?

King's Landing, Dragonstone, or Summerhal. Aerion was likely Maekar's Prince of Dragonstone at the time of his death, so Dragonstone would have been his own seat. However, chances are that Aerion and his wife resided in King's Landing despite that, and thus that Maegor was born there. Summerhal is also a possibility, as Aerion grew up there and might have prefered the castle (as Daeron did), but I would think that the other two options are more likely.

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8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Why didn't Daeron marry Daena himself?

I assume he was promised/betrothed to one of his Velaryon cousins. If his aunt Baela and Alyn Velaryon had a daughter four years younger than Daeron I - and Aegon III and Queen Daenaera had arranged such a match in Daeron's childhood (just as Rhaenyra made matches for her son when they were still very young) then he would not have been free to marry Daena himself. Especially after Oakenfist's plans and navy proved to be so crucial during the Dornish Conquest. Daeron I most certainly wouldn't have been able to dissolve such a betrothal even if he wasn't inclined to marry his cousin.

That makes more sense than him arranging a wedding for his brother and sister despite the fact that he himself was yet unmarried. It is quite different in the case of their uncle Viserys who was married to Larra Rogare (against his will?) while living as a captive in Lys.

A king needs heirs of his own body, so the marriage of King Daeron I would have been the most important thing, not the marriage of Baelor to Daena, or Rhaena's betrothal to the Sealord of Braavos.

But I actually assume the Targaryen marriage policy of this age (aside from the plans to marry Rhaena to the Sealord) were actually not made by the younger generation. Aegon and Naerys married in 153 AC, the year the last dragon died. Despite Aegon III personal feelings towards dragons he and Viserys - who pushed him to try to hatch some dragon eggs in the Nine Mages fiasco - knew that this was a major blow to Targaryen power and prestige.

One assumes that both brothers would have turned to 'hallowed tradition' as a solution, reviving/reinforcing the whole incest marriage thing. Thus Viserys got permission to marry Aegon to Naerys, and Aegon III/Daenaera decided to betroth Daeron to a daughter of Alyn and Baela (to strengthen the Velaryon element) and betrothed Baelor to Daena. Rhaena and Elaena would have been too young at this point, one assumes.

6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

True.  Baelor and Rhaena would have been a better match. 

Aerys and Rhaella were married when they were 13 or 14.  They had a prophecy pushing their marriage though. Perhaps their parents were preventing them from eloping like they did? 

Aegon V married Betha when he was 20.  He had been legally a man for 4 years, and yet he wasn't married before then.  However,  there might have been good reasons for this.  His sister (Daella?) might have ended up marrying someone else.  And Aegon was thought to not inherit the throne at that time, so no pressure. 

It is difficult to see a tendency there. Many Targaryens were betrothed/married at a very early age, others like Rhaenyra, Rhaegar, or Egg only married later in life. In Rhaenyra's case there was clearly a lot of discussion who she should marry, just as there was in Rhaegar's case, but the Targaryens really needed heirs in the days of Aegon III so one should really assume Daeron I was at least betrothed, since he had not only sisters to marry but also his cousin Naerys (at least until she wed her brother Aegon).

In Rhaegar's and Rhaenyra's case their fathers apparently waited because they hoped they might still get a close relative to betroth them to. Renly could have been a girl and could have been a match for Rhaegar. And if Viserys had been a girl Aerys would have betrothed her to Rhaegar, that's clear.

29 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

King's Landing, Dragonstone, or Summerhal. Aerion was likely Maekar's Prince of Dragonstone at the time of his death, so Dragonstone would have been his own seat. However, chances are that Aerion and his wife resided in King's Landing despite that, and thus that Maegor was born there. Summerhal is also a possibility, as Aerion grew up there and might have prefered the castle (as Daeron did), but I would think that the other two options are more likely.

I assume it will turn out that Egg is the Prince of Summerhall by the time of Maekar's death, making it unlikely young Maegor was born at Summerhall. KL would be the most likeliest place since we know Maekar's sons supposedly all lived at court, at least for some time during their father's reign, although it seems Daeron eventually left (was banished?) to Dragonstone because Aemon apparently served him as maester there rather than in the Red Keep. I doubt that Maekar had much patience with his wastrel son, most certainly not after he became king.

And Aerion, possibly nominally Prince of Summerhall after Daeron became Prince of Dragonstone (although Maekar also might have granted Egg the castle, just as Daeron II made it a gift to his youngest son - after all, Egg had recently married and Betha might already have been pregnant in 221 AC), seems to be the kind of guy who enjoyed court life. I expect him to have taken up permanent residence in the Red Keep until his death (unless he and Maekar quarreled and the king banished him from time to time). After Daeron's death - we don't know when that happened - Aerion would have become the Prince of Dragonstone but I'd be surprised if he had taken permanent residence at the citadel. His place of death seems to have been in KL considering he was drinking a cup of wildfire, something he would most likely have procured from the alchemists.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I assume he was promised/betrothed to one of his Velaryon cousins. If his aunt Baela and Alyn Velaryon had a daughter four years younger than Daeron I - and Aegon III and Queen Daenaera had arranged such a match in Daeron's childhood (just as Rhaenyra made matches for her son when they were still very young) then he would not have been free to marry Daena himself. Especially after Oakenfist's plans and navy proved to be so crucial during the Dornish Conquest. Daeron I most certainly wouldn't have been able to dissolve such a betrothal even if he wasn't inclined to marry his cousin.

That makes more sense than him arranging a wedding for his brother and sister despite the fact that he himself was yet unmarried. It is quite different in the case of their uncle Viserys who was married to Larra Rogare (against his will?) while living as a captive in Lys.

A king needs heirs of his own body, so the marriage of King Daeron I would have been the most important thing, not the marriage of Baelor to Daena, or Rhaena's betrothal to the Sealord of Braavos.

<snip

Those are good points. Thanks, LV. Though I will say that I don't think Viserys was against being married to Larra, at least not for very long. He was a cheerful, pleasant fellow until she ran off. That's when he turned dour. Poor guy.

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It also depends on who made the betrothal. If Aegon III had betrothed Baelor to Daena (planning to create an alliance by marrying Daeron to the daughter of a powerful merchant prince from the Free Cities or the daughter of one of the lords from the Great Houses), than Daeron I might have felt like he couldn't break it. 

If Daeron I was the one who arranged the betrothal, the motives might have been similar. By marrying Baelor to Daena, he likely thought that he had ensured the succession (as Baelor would have been expected to father children on Daena) for a while. Since he was planning to marry one of his sisters (I suspect Rhaena) to the Sealord of Braavos, thus forming an alliance, he might have been planning to form an alliance by taking to wife the daughter of another powerful potential ally. 

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

It also depends on who made the betrothal. If Aegon III had betrothed Baelor to Daena (planning to create an alliance by marrying Daeron to the daughter of a powerful merchant prince from the Free Cities or the daughter of one of the lords from the Great Houses), than Daeron I might have felt like he couldn't break it.

Such a match is certainly possible, but if there was a betrothal involving other powerful factions, perhaps even foreign powers, then we would expect to know something about that because that would be relevant to history. If his betrothed was just too young to marry him then this could explain things. If she had been old enough after the Conquest of Dorne was over then there certainly could have been a double wedding involving Daeron I and his wife as well as Baelor and Daena.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If Daeron I was the one who arranged the betrothal, the motives might have been similar. By marrying Baelor to Daena, he likely thought that he had ensured the succession (as Baelor would have been expected to father children on Daena) for a while. Since he was planning to marry one of his sisters (I suspect Rhaena) to the Sealord of Braavos, thus forming an alliance, he might have been planning to form an alliance by taking to wife the daughter of another powerful potential ally. 

Securing the succession through a cadet branch of the royal family is never the preferred solution. Daeron I, and the king needs a wife and sons of his own. It is odd to arrange the wedding of your own brother if you are king but remain unmarried yourself. When Viserys arranged the Aegon-Naerys match his children were a lot older than Aegon III's but it is quite clear that Aegon III expected his sons to succeed him, and produce children of their own.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Such a match is certainly possible, but if there was a betrothal involving other powerful factions, perhaps even foreign powers, then we would expect to know something about that because that would be relevant to history. If his betrothed was just too young to marry him then this could explain things. If she had been old enough after the Conquest of Dorne was over then there certainly could have been a double wedding involving Daeron I and his wife as well as Baelor and Daena.

Why would we know about a plan to possibly betroth Daeron which never came to fruitation?

My point was, that as far as we know Daeron was not yet betrothed, and that might have been because Aegon III wanted to seal some sort of alliance with a marriage to his heir, (and thus not betrothing his heir to his own daughter), but had not yet reached any agreements at the time of his death.

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Securing the succession through a cadet branch of the royal family is never the preferred solution. Daeron I, and the king needs a wife and sons of his own. It is odd to arrange the wedding of your own brother if you are king but remain unmarried yourself. When Viserys arranged the Aegon-Naerys match his children were a lot older than Aegon III's but it is quite clear that Aegon III expected his sons to succeed him, and produce children of their own.

Of course Aegon III expected Daeron to succeed him. I never suggested otherwise.

I suspect that the Naerys-Aegon match was made to keep the family tree from branching out too much. By marrying Aegon to Naerys, Viserys ensured that he could only have two lines of descendants (children of Aegon and Naerys, and children of Aemon). When Aemon joined the KG, that was brought back to one line.

As to why Daeron I might have arranged the marriage of his siblings but not his own, who knows? He was an ambitious man, and so I would expect that if he had to arrange his own marriage, he would want to make it as advantegous to the plans he had for his kingdom as possible.

Also, Daeron spend most of his reign at war. I can imagine he wished to spend his energy planning his battles, and not seeking a bride.

And who knows? Perhaps Daeron considered or agreed to a betrothal during his time in King's Landing, and we just haven't learned of it, yet.

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