Lost Melnibonean Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 When Tyrion sent Janos to the Wall, he sent six of Janos's henchmen along too. He gave orders that Allar Deem should be thrown overboard, but do we ever hear what happened to the other five? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raisin' Bran Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Why did Robb's crown have exactly nine spikes? ETA And how the heck did Cleos get past Harrenhal with 30 of Stark's men? Maybe also a nod toward the nine kings of men (ringwraiths) in LOTR. Peace banner? or is that wishful thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said: Maybe also a nod toward the nine kings of men (ringwraiths) in LOTR. Peace banner? or is that wishful thinking? Assuming that Gregor, Amory, and Vargo would have respected the peace banner, wouldn't they have escorted the party to Harrenhal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mzso Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: ETA And how the heck did Cleos get past Harrenhal with 30 of Stark's men? When? He mostly went about with a peace banner? The one time I remember he didn't, he died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, mzso said: When? He mostly went about with a peace banner? The one time I remember he didn't, he died. When Robb sent him near the beginning of Clash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 How much time passed from the moment that Daeron's informer advised the king that Daemon intended to rebel until Bittersteel fled to Tyrosh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 When did The George first suggest that he had a rough Targaryen family tree worked out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I don't know when he first publicly stated it, but Linda and I got our first look at it in 1999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 21 minutes ago, Ran said: I don't know when he first publicly stated it, but Linda and I got our first look at it in 1999. Can you give a rough outline what changed? We know he worked a lot on names and such, but were there entire lines deleted/added over the years? I remember him telling me once when he was answering questions on some forum years ago that Daeron I was supposedly married - which now changed. Was it ever worked out who his wife would have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 31 minutes ago, Ran said: I don't know when he first publicly stated it, but Linda and I got our first look at it in 1999. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Can you give a rough outline what changed? Afraid not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Is Salladhor Saan's hair white due to age or his Valyrian ancestry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 minute ago, Ran said: Afraid not. Thought as much ;-). If I had to guess I'm inclined to believe that Daeron the Gay was a later addition. Nobody saw Egg's third son coming in ADwD, no? And we do know that at least one daughter of Daeron II and Mariah was cousinized. Lyonel's Strong boys changed from literal Strong boys to Harwin's figurative boys. And the shuffling within House Velaryon - the changes made to Alyn Oakenfist and Aegon III's Velaryon Hand and regent (and subsequently Aegon III's wife) - makes it also rather likely that the marriages there aren't the same they were in earlier versions of the family tree. If you guys ever get down to publish or otherwise release this interesting nerd material, it would be very interesting to find out whether George ever knew which three Targaryen princes married Velaryon brides - right now the only princes were have are Prince Aenys and Prince Daemon. Rhaenyra and Rhaenys were princesses (and make four in total) and Aegon III - the fifth - would have been a king, not a prince. That's splitting hairs, I know, but things have to be unified somehow. They must fit together. They musssst... On 5.4.2018 at 8:20 PM, Lost Melnibonean said: When Tyrion sent Janos to the Wall, he sent six of Janos's henchmen along too. He gave orders that Allar Deem should be thrown overboard, but do we ever hear what happened to the other five? One assumes some of them survived and hang out at Eastwatch right now. Considering that they were men-at-arms in the City Watch Cotter Pyke may have claimed them for himself. 8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: When Robb sent him near the beginning of Clash. Wasn't Tywin still in charge of Harrenhal at that time? Cleos either took a detour, or this is a plot hole. Tywin would have seized those negotiations, he wouldn't have allowed Tyrion or Cersei to deal with stuff like that if he had known about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Is Salladhor Saan's hair white due to age or his Valyrian ancestry? Depending on his age I'd wager both. But you better never ask Maekar that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 @Lord Varys There is an idiomatic expression, for example, "The Princes of Europe", which means not specifically princes, but encompasses the crowned kings and queens as well. Thus, "Targaryen princes" can encompass a king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Wasn't Tywin still in charge of Harrenhal at that time? Cleos either took a detour, or this is a plot hole. Tywin would have seized those negotiations, he wouldn't have allowed Tyrion or Cersei to deal with stuff like that if he had known about it. Exactly, though I guess it is not totally inconceivable that they passed through unmolested or were able to fight off Tywin's dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, Ran said: @Lord Varys There is an idiomatic expression, for example, "The Princes of Europe", which means not specifically princes, but encompasses the crowned kings and queens as well. Thus, "Targaryen princes" can encompass a king. I know, and I think that's how it is (still?) meant. It is just interesting if some other prince may have had a Velaryon bride in one of those earlier family trees - a son of Jaehaerys I, perhaps, the Young Dragon before he was crowned, one of the four sons of Daeron II, etc. Hell, even Viserys II springs to mind, considering that the whole Larra Rogare idea seems to have sprung out the the time line issues that resulted in the retconning of Viserys II as Aegon III's brother. Originally he was imagined as Aegon III's fourth son, and it would be very interesting to see a family tree reflecting this old concept, assuming George had already drawn up some family trees at that this time. 7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Exactly, though I guess it is not totally inconceivable that they passed through unmolested or were able to fight off Tywin's dogs. I think we can resolve the problem by supposing (likely correctly) that Cleos Frey had no intention to meet and interact with Uncle Tywin in person. His father wasn't popular with Tywin, nor should Cleos have deluded himself into believing Tywin approved of him being captured and serving Robb as a messenger. On the other hand, it is odd that Cleos didn't try to suck up to Uncle Tywin, giving him real news about Jaime. If he had offered Tywin to try to negotiate Jaime's release this whole thing could actually have influenced the outcome of the war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I know, and I think that's how it is (still?) meant. It is just interesting if some other prince may have had a Velaryon bride in one of those earlier family trees - a son of Jaehaerys I, perhaps, the Young Dragon before he was crowned, one of the four sons of Daeron II, etc. Hell, even Viserys II springs to mind, considering that the whole Larra Rogare idea seems to have sprung out the the time line issues that resulted in the retconning of Viserys II as Aegon III's brother. Originally he was imagined as Aegon III's fourth son, and it would be very interesting to see a family tree reflecting this old concept, assuming George had already drawn up some family trees at that this time. I think we can resolve the problem by supposing (likely correctly) that Cleos Frey had no intention to meet and interact with Uncle Tywin in person. His father wasn't popular with Tywin, nor should Cleos have deluded himself into believing Tywin approved of him being captured and serving Robb as a messenger. On the other hand, it is odd that Cleos didn't try to suck up to Uncle Tywin, giving him real news about Jaime. If he had offered Tywin to try to negotiate Jaime's release this whole thing could actually have influenced the outcome of the war... Cleos would not have had a say in the matter if 300 riders commanded by Gregor Clegane had come across his escort of 30 of Stark's men. He would have been taken directly to Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Cleos would not have had a say in the matter if 300 riders commanded by Gregor Clegane had come across his escort of 30 of Stark's men. He would have been taken directly to Tywin. Sure, but didn't those 300 riders spread out? They were supposed to burn the lands in a rather large area, no? Effective terror isn't terror done by 300 men who fear to spread out... I imagine Clegane spread his men into scores and had them terrorize some smaller settlements and the like. And come to think of it - wasn't it around that time that Clegane dealt with Castle Darry again? One assumes they went into another direction after they had put down the garrison, including young Lyman Darry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mzso Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Exactly, though I guess it is not totally inconceivable that they passed through unmolested or were able to fight off Tywin's dogs. I don't know why you guys are hung up on this. Harrenhal is not the Wall, nor reason for them to get even close to it. It's not even on the most direct way to Kings Landing according to the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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