Rhaenys_Targaryen

Small Questions v. 10105

2,004 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Targaryens were lucky that the sons of the Dragon did indeed not have any sisters to marry. Had Aegon had any daughters things would have exploded much sooner because it is very obvious that they would have married a daughter of Visenya to Aenys and/or a daughter of Rhaenys to Maegor to prevent the kind of succession they later had during Maegor's reign.

I would say that it ultimately worked out for the Targaryens, as Maegor's reign of terror made it possible for Jaehaerys to come in and "good cop" it, even while being married to his sister. But without knowing what choices Aegon would have made had he had some daughters as well, I wouldn't say they were lucky, because they would have had options.

If Aegon had had daughters, let's say two, he could have forced the incest issue by marrying them to his sons, and dared those who opposed him on religious grounds to challenge them over it. Perhaps he takes care of the issue early in his own reign, whereas it took decades for the issue to play out over the reign of Aenys, Maegor, and Jaehaerys, and they ultimately had to live with Targaryen incest anyway. Or perhaps he only causes them to dig in their heels, and they are never really accepted on any level.

But maybe he still chooses not to force the incest issue? Maybe he still marries Aenys to Alyssa Velaryon since she is close enough to contribute Targaryen ancestry without causing an incest issue.  Maybe he even marries one of his daughters into House Velaryon to keep them up as a source for Targ ancestry that is close enough to satisfy their needs, and distant enough to satisfy opponents of incest.

Or perhaps he uses his daughters and Maegor to tie houses or regions to the throne in a way that wasn't possible with just Aenys and Maegor, so they can produce children that belong to Westeros but are fit to be married back into the Targ line. Perhaps he sets a precedent that Aenys and his descendants can follow which both meets their genetic needs and does not transgress Westerosi religion.

Just a bunch of speculation, of course. I am not sure what Aegon would have done, but I don't take for granted that he would have automatically wed his sons and daughters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I would say that it ultimately worked out for the Targaryens, as Maegor's reign of terror made it possible for Jaehaerys to come in and "good cop" it, even while being married to his sister. But without knowing what choices Aegon would have made had he had some daughters as well, I wouldn't say they were lucky, because they would have had options.

My point is more that the Targaryens may have lost everything had Aegon actually tried to force the issue during his reign.

The way things turned is that familiarity had indeed given birth and raised acceptance by the time the Conqueror finally died. The rebellions during the days of his sons were attempts to change things back but only a minority wanted the Targaryens to be gone. And while the basis from which the Faith Militant could recruit its fighters was still very strong it clearly was much smaller than it was back in the days of the Conquest.

Back then a majority of the Faith wanted to go war with the Faith. Later on it was a minority, and it was only the zealous High Septon, Ceryse's uncle, who pushed things to escalation. His successor (and the Hightowers, who most likely helped to kill him) cooled things down.

And while the Faith officially lost and all the Poor Fellows were never truly gone. They survived underground until the Dance and even into the days of King Tommen and now they are back officially. The sparrows basically are Poor Fellows. Cersei sees the men with the stars even before Maegor's laws are officially revoked.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

If Aegon had had daughters, let's say two, he could have forced the incest issue by marrying them to his sons, and dared those who opposed him on religious grounds to challenge them over it. Perhaps he takes care of the issue early in his own reign, whereas it took decades for the issue to play out over the reign of Aenys, Maegor, and Jaehaerys, and they ultimately had to live with Targaryen incest anyway. Or perhaps he only causes them to dig in their heels, and they are never really accepted on any level.

The incest thing is part of Targaryen identity and culture. It is what they do. And Aegon and Visenya did not raise their sons and grandsons with the idea that their family was to change now that they were living in another land. Aenys I would never have come up with the idea to marry Rhaena to Aegon had his father and stepmother not raised him with the family traditions in mind. Aegon chose Alyssa Velaryon as Aenys' bride because she was his closest female relation of noble birth and Visenya also suggested the Rhaena-Maegor for similar reason (and also to strengthen the position of her own son, of course). But that match was not only resisted by the High Septon but also Aenys and Alyssa who did not went to wed their young daughter to her uncle Maegor.

But if Aegon had forced the issue early in his reign by marrying one of his sons to a daughter of his things would have exploded back then, most likely marking the beginning of the end of the Targaryen reign. Back then more lords and nobles would have been willing to stand with the Faith against the Targaryens.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

But maybe he still chooses not to force the incest issue? Maybe he still marries Aenys to Alyssa Velaryon since she is close enough to contribute Targaryen ancestry without causing an incest issue.  Maybe he even marries one of his daughters into House Velaryon to keep them up as a source for Targ ancestry that is close enough to satisfy their needs, and distant enough to satisfy opponents of incest.

That would have been a possible way to deal with things. But it would have been to make a change to Targaryen tradition. Aenys I could also have done this. I mean, he must have known things were pretty bad with the Faith already. But incest was just the thing they were doing, period. It is so much ingrained in their culture that even young Egg considers it perfectly natural back in TSS.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Or perhaps he uses his daughters and Maegor to tie houses or regions to the throne in a way that wasn't possible with just Aenys and Maegor, so they can produce children that belong to Westeros but are fit to be married back into the Targ line. Perhaps he sets a precedent that Aenys and his descendants can follow which both meets their genetic needs and does not transgress Westerosi religion.

Aegon actually was the one to agree to the High Septon's suggestion that Maegor marry Ceryse. I don't think Visenya liked that all that much but Aegon saw wisdom in that, since it established closer ties both with the Faith and the Hightowers.

And it is actually ironic that nothing came of this alliance. Had Maegor had sons I'm pretty sure Maegor and Visenys would have killed Aenys' son with the blessings of the Faith and the help of the Hightowers. It might even be that the High Septon would have allowed Maegor's sons to marry their sisters (and certainly their cousins Rhaena or Alysanne).

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Just a bunch of speculation, of course. I am not sure what Aegon would have done, but I don't take for granted that he would have automatically wed his sons and daughters.

It would be what he would have wanted to do. To keep the blood of the dragon pure as tradition demanded. Whether he would have been able to do it is difficult to say. But I'm pretty sure both he and Visenya would have tried. Very hard, actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really brings up a point I've been musing over in my mind for some time that Maegor actually saved the targaryen dynasty even though he was  a cruel and wicked tyrant his decisiveness in dealing with the faith militant was what kept house targaryen as the monarchs whilst aenys was a weakling and couldn't achieve anything decisive, Maegor was headstrong and tough and showed the faith that incest was something the targaryens didn't  want to forgo any time soon, because Maegor knew that if they stopped practicing incest eventually they will stop having the ability to ride dragons, and losing that ability for the targs was something impossible to concede because it is the basis of all their power

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Really brings up a point I've been musing over in my mind for some time that Maegor actually saved the targaryen dynasty even though he was  a cruel and wicked tyrant his decisiveness in dealing with the faith militant was what kept house targaryen as the monarchs whilst aenys was a weakling and couldn't achieve anything decisive, Maegor was headstrong and tough and showed the faith that incest was something the targaryens didn't  want to forgo any time soon, because Maegor knew that if they stopped practicing incest eventually they will stop having the ability to ride dragons, and losing that ability for the targs was something impossible to concede because it is the basis of all their power

Actually, Maegor never entered into an incestuous marriage (the High Septon spoke against the Rhaena-Maegor thing but uncle-niece marriages are not really considered incest in Westeros - it is mother-son, father-daughter, and brother-sister). Uncle-niece or aunt-nephew might be odd but they are not forbidden. The Starks do it, too, and cousin marriages are prevalent among the Andals, too (Tywin-Joanna). 

Maegor helped begin a war with the Faith when he decided to set aside Ceryse Hightower, the niece of the High Septon, and continued it because they opposed his rule and sure as hell refused to bow down to the likes of Tyanna of the Tower (who was basically a whore turned queen). Maegor also fought a war against House Targaryen, killing two of his nephews. He was as much a danger to House Targaryen than the Faith Militant ever was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now